The Harvard Crimson admits we debunked CE 399

[David Josephs]

2 hours ago, Eddy Bainbridge said:

I am battling to understand this

I'm with you Eddy, maybe I can help.

The "1 foot starting diff" is elevation 418.48 - 417.5 = .98 feet x 18.3 (the run in feet to 1 foot in rise on Elm) = 18 horizontal feet DIFFERENCE by placing JFK at the filmed 313 versus his actual location.

Except the recreation only has a 1.65 foot horizontal difference when they arrive there due to the .09 vertical difference between FBI elevation 421.75 and Actual elevation 421.66 at the spot of z313.

In other words - and Chris please correct me - the 17 foot difference would be the distance the recreation limo traveled while the actual limo slowed to a "stop" and started up again.  IOW the speed of the recreation limo at that moment was very slow for it to travel only 17 feet in the 2-3 seconds it took to slow and start again, so that both would end up at 313 at about the right time.

The standardly applied 3.27 feet did not take into account the shot to the throat and his hunching over slightly from his sitting up straight position higher up Elm.

There's a bit more to it than that, but for the circa 313 shot(s) discussed here, and the limo stop which preceded, Chris shows how z313 in CE884 was the agreed upon location for the derivative single shot that had to hit there.

 

[Chris Bristow]

11 hours ago, David Josephs said:

10 hours ago, David Josephs said:

I did say:  "This is only possible if the car was either about 6 to 8 feet farther east than is depicted in the film,"

BUT I ALSO SAID: "or the limo is turned six or seven degrees to the right of the direction of Elm Street at that point. It's possible that Greer veered to the right a bit as he looked over his right shoulder."

I think the more feasible answer is the second choice. The reflection off the trunk match frame 312 and the limo continued in a crooked manner for around 30 more frames. 

[Eddy Bainbridge]

My addition to this fascinating discussion is rather simple. I have always been struck by two potential events : The limo stopped (not in the film) and the limo accelerated immediately after the shooting (not according to Alvarez's analysis of the Z film.) I think more can be made of the Z film's failure to indicate acceleration immediately after Z313 .

 

Alvarez's analysis tries to suggest the car moved at 8 mph from around Z305 to Z334. I am not trying to challenge his maths, but if that is what the film indicates it borders on the ludicrous:

We can consider two possible actions of the driver; He was shocked, accidentally braked/let his foot off the accelerator and then reacted to his realisation, or, he braked, knowing the consequences and then sped away. To my  mind there is no possible scenario where the events around Z313 would result in around two seconds of non-reaction from Greer.

 

What is possible, is to combine Deceleration footage and acceleration footage to create constant speed.

 

[Bill Fite]

On 7/21/2021 at 4:13 PM, Micah Mileto said:

 Not necessary? Scientifically proving a conspiracy in the JFK assassination would be a big deal! Is there any way somebody could make money off of that - investing all of their money on commissioning separate, independent 3D models of Dealey Plaza? Any potential prizes involved?

I think that mock trials and articles only go so far.

To create momentum a TV special with experiments & measurements showing the impossibilities / extremely low probabilities of some of the WC evidence would work better.

For example - the 'Beyond the Magic Bullet' program on the Discovery channel illustrated the impossibility of the magic bullet shot exiting the throat.

Others that could be used include:

* NAA tests on paraffin from the cheeks of subjects who fired the MC rifle or an MC and comparing those results with LHO's paraffin NAA test.

* Firing 100 rounds of MC ammunition through goat carcasses or the like, then measure the deformities and compare to CE 399.

* etc.

Also - I don't think the approach should be to prove a conspiracy but rather to reject the hypothesis that the JFK's murder was the work of a lone assassin. (Scientific method).

Anyway, my 2$ worth (used to be 2 cents... but inflation.)

 

[Micah Mileto]

On 8/19/2023 at 7:37 AM, Bill Fite said:

 

Beyond the Magic Bullet had incorrect geometry.

[Bill Fite]

2 hours ago, Micah Mileto said:

Beyond the Magic Bullet had incorrect geometry.

What was at fault in the setup?

Seems like the Aussies and the Discovery Channel would have checked, double checked and triple checked.

But  - still it would be better to assume a lone assassin in the TSBD window and then use experimental recreations of all the events that would have had to happened.

I think filmed experiments would be more effective than articles or mock trials.

I think it would be an easy assumption / hypothesis to reject.

[Micah Mileto]

1 minute ago, Bill Fite said:

 

https://www.patspeer.com/chapter12bbullshitandbeyond

[Bill Fite]

17 hours ago, Micah Mileto said:

https://www.patspeer.com/chapter12bbullshitandbeyond

Thanks - but doesn't the exit on the torso being far lower than on the face sheet actually provide more evidence that the assumption / hypothesis of a lone gunman on the 6th floor TSBD being false?

If the height of the window, distance, and position of the target are close to being correct an exit wound in the chest area  falsifies that assumption.

Or am I missing something? 

[Ian Lloyd]

CE903 debunks CE399.

[Chris Bristow]

I  wonder how accurately the trajectory of the 2nd shot can be estimated from what we can see in the Z film?  If you draw a trajectory thru JFK to Connally's entry wound, but then change either persons lateral position in the limo by just 1/2 inch the trajectory changes by 1 degree. 

Maybe we could find their positions to within about 1  inch left or right. Move JFK 1 inch to his right and Connally 1  inch to his left and the trajectory changes 4 degrees.

Connally is rotated in his seat and I have heard estimations from 20 to 30 degrees.  5 degrees rotational  difference changes the lateral  trajectory by another inch or 2 more degrees. If Connally scooted 3 inches forward to start his turn add another 2 degrees due to the bullets 13 degree lateral trajectory onto and across the limo.

8 degrees may be as close as we can estimate a trajectory based on the wounds.

 

 

[Gerry Down]

On 8/25/2023 at 10:21 AM, Chris Bristow said:

I  wonder how accurately the trajectory of the 2nd shot can be estimated from what we can see in the Z film?  If you draw a trajectory thru JFK to Connally's entry wound, but then change either persons lateral position in the limo by just 1/2 inch the trajectory changes by 1 degree. 

Maybe we could find their positions to within about 1  inch left or right. Move JFK 1 inch to his right and Connally 1  inch to his left and the trajectory changes 4 degrees.

Connally is rotated in his seat and I have heard estimations from 20 to 30 degrees.  5 degrees rotational  difference changes the lateral  trajectory by another inch or 2 more degrees. If Connally scooted 3 inches forward to start his turn add another 2 degrees due to the bullets 13 degree lateral trajectory onto and across the limo.

8 degrees may be as close as we can estimate a trajectory based on the wounds.

 

 

That's the problem. We don't know exactly the positions of each man. This has enabled Dale Myers to put forth his animation as credible as it's difficult to dispute his positioning of the two men.

[Chris Bristow]

On 8/26/2023 at 2:22 PM, Gerry Down said:

That's the problem. We don't know exactly the positions of each man. This has enabled Dale Myers to put forth his animation as credible as it's difficult to dispute his positioning of the two men.

Yes it creates considerable ambiguity. I think it has also been pointed out that Connally was too small. Computer 3d models are touted as unquestionably accurate but they can be manipulated.