I Have Always Considered Dorothy Kilgallen's Murder A Much More Important Reveal Of The JFK Truth Than We Have Ever Contemplated.

[Ron Bulman]

1 hour ago, Andrew Prutsok said:

Chappaquiddick has all the earmarks of a CIA op. 

Say what you will about Teddy Kennedy, but here's the 28-year-old, doughy, Hyannis Port rich boy on the back of a bucking horse in Miles City, MT in 1960. 

https://mtstandard.com/news/state-and-regional/kennedys-wild-ride/article_2b9ff079-1850-546a-aa9b-c478a3c9f33a.html

I live in Miles City and have been to these events. It's deranged. This was total badassery. He was twice the cowboy George W Bush ever thought of being.

Needs a subscription to see/view.  Yes on Chappaquiddick.

Edited August 25, 2022 by Ron Bulman

[James DiEugenio]

Chris:

Let me try and reply.

First, you cannot ignore what Janney does with JFK.  Because that is part of the structure of the book.  He is saying that somehow, it was Mary that guided Kennedy to a new vista in foreign policy.  That is just rubbish.  I have written about this at length for about nine years. Kennedy's revolutionary ideas go way, way back to the early fifties.  I am reading. a new book right now called America's Last President, that traces it back further. JFK was writing about the Palestinians back in 1939! So this idea of Janney's is simply not supportable by the record.  Which is why he used people like Collier and Horowitz and Hersh.

As to your query about what she heard from her ex, or the Angletons, I don't know for sure.  And I don't think anyone else is certian about that either.   But in the later work I did, I couldn't find anything that betrayed a kind of strong political interest by her. She wanted to be an artist.  After her divorce, that is what she went back to college for.

The story about Bradlee and Angleton at the art studio is so infested with mutual resentment by those two men that it is impenetrable.  Angleton despised Bradlee for outing him as a CIA officer. To make it worse, Bradlee's employee, Jim Truitt--which is where that story begins really--hated Bradlee for firing him. The most I could make of it was that Mary wanted her art belongings to go to her sister Toni.  And unlike Ben and James A, Toni and Cicely Angleton were friends.  Toni invited Cicely to the Bradlee home upon learning of her sister's death and they went to Mary's.  The best I could find in my later work was that this so called diary was really something like an art diary. 

In all the work I did on this, I could not find any evidence that Mary's friends wanted to remain silent about what happened to her.

I am not an expert on what happened at Chappaquiddick.  But in what I read about it I thought the DeWitt /Lange book was the best.  Damore's book was, to say the least, rather poor. 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 25, 2022 by James DiEugenio

[James DiEugenio]

BTW, this book I mentioned is by Monica Wiesak. 

She sent me an advance copy via E book.  I am about forty five pages into it.  It is quite good on both Kennedy's foreign and domestic policies.

Here it is.  I will be reviewing it, and she will be on Len's show.  It is well worth purchasing.

https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/americas-last-president-monika-wiesak/1141992424

 

Edited August 25, 2022 by James DiEugenio

[Guest]

4 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

First, you cannot ignore what Janney does with JFK.  Because that is part of the structure of the book.  He is saying that somehow, it was Mary that guided Kennedy to a new vista in foreign policy.  That is just rubbish.  I have written about this at length for about nine years. Kennedy's revolutionary ideas go way, way back to the early fifties.  I am reading. a new book right now called America's Last President, that traces it back further. JFK was writing about the Palestinians back in 1939! So this idea of Janney's is simply not supportable by the record.  Which is why he used people like Collier and Horowitz and Hersh.

Thanks, James. That part is annoying as we know his trips in the 50’s (you suggest further back) were shaping his world view, even back to being in Berlin the day before WW2 started. Everything influences us. Plenty of people do have pretty profound experiences on psychedelics, often altering their view of themselves and their environments. If it was correct that JFK and MPM did see Tim ... Leary is it, the Harvard guy who was into that at the time, forgive me if my memory fails. If it happened, it may have been a contributing factor. I am with you that JFK’s world view comes from way back. TBH most JFK books have an angle, which I try my best to ignore. I love James W Douglass’ book but, I have to ignore the religious parts, which I find a little heavy. 
 

4 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

As to your query about what she heard from her ex, or the Angletons, I don't know for sure.  And I don't think anyone else is certian about that either.   But in the later work I did, I couldn't find anything that betrayed a kind of strong political interest by her. She wanted to be an artist.  After her divorce, that is what she went back to college for.

Cool - thank you

4 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

The story about Bradlee and Angleton at the art studio is so infested with mutual resentment by those two men that it is impenetrable.  Angleton despised Bradlee for outing him as a CIA officer. To make it worse, Bradlee's employee, Jim Truitt--which is where that story begins really--hated Bradlee for firing him. The most I could make of it was that Mary wanted her art belongings to go to her sister Toni.  And unlike Ben and James A, Toni and Cicely Angleton were friends.  Toni invited Cicely to the Bradlee home upon learning of her sister's death and they went to Mary's.  The best I could find in my later work was that this so called diary was really something like an art diary. 

That’s all fair comment. 
 

4 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

In all the work I did on this, I could not find any evidence that Mary's friends wanted to remain silent about what happened to her.

I am not an expert on what happened at Chappaquiddick.  But in what I read about it I thought the DeWitt /Lange book was the best.  Damore's book was, to say the least, rather poor. 

Thanks a lot for taking the time to shed some light here for those of us who are less we versed in the research, appreciate it.

 

Chris

[Pete Mellor]

4 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

I am not an expert on what happened at Chappaquiddick.  But in what I read about it I thought the DeWitt /Lange book was the best.  Damore's book was, to say the least, rather poor. 

I don't want to hijack this Kilgallen thread but I was interested in Andrew and Ron's belief in CIA being somehow behind Chappaquiddick.

I agree with Jim's view of Damore's book, I have not read the DeWitt/Lange from 1993, but found Pinney's 'Chappaquiddick Speaks' from 2017 quite logical in its verdict, a Ted cover-up.

6 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

Chappaquiddick has all the earmarks of a CIA op. 

Andrew/Ron,  What evidence or suspicions for CIA?

[Pamela Brown]

21 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

Shaw's Marilyn Monroe take is not something I agree with.

One can find credibility issues with Shaw regards M.M. I admit.

Still, as I have mentioned many times off-and-on however, I will always feel the Dorothy Kilgallen suspicious death story ( coupled with her amazingly accomplished, highest celebrity connected world life ) is one of the most illogically wasted and ignored Hollywood A-list movie themes in the last 50 years.

A film of her life alone, even without her Jack Ruby investigation and laughably staged suicide, would have been remarkably attractive and marketable imo.

Hundreds of films have been made about people of less accomplishment and less celebrity than Dorothy Kilgallen. And none of them had the end of life intrigue of DK.

She's nearing "blowing the case wide open" regards her investigation into perhaps the greatest murder crime in America's history ... and just before she does...she dies in bed, oddly dressed, made up, sitting up, reading an upside down book, with the air conditioning in her room turned to full blast mode in cool November and with no note expressing regret that she is leaving her sincerely beloved children and especially her young son without a mother....PLEASE!

And top off this laughably suspicious scene with Kilgallen's closest confident friend Ms. Smith dying the next day? And DK's Ruby investigation files immediately disappearing?

Why the grandly illogical ignoring and burying of this magnificently qualified Hollywood A-List film story of one of our most well known celebrities of her day? And for over 50 years?

Just another typically suspect and contrived part of the JFK/Oswald/Ruby affair ... no?

 

 

 

I agree that Shaw brings to light enough odd things for us to want to find out just what happened to DK.  I do think there has been a cover-up of that, and that Shaw is pointing us in the right direction.

I am also interested in his take about DK and MM.  There seems to be a mystery there that deserves unravelling.

I too am dismayed that Shaw is trying to push RFK into what happened to MM, and am not giving that part of the book any weight.  Ironically, however, it does seem that MM was surrounded by Kennedys, or those having a connection to the Kennedys, at the time of her death.  But that was her choice...

[Andrew Prutsok]

1 hour ago, Pete Mellor said:

I don't want to hijack this Kilgallen thread but I was interested in Andrew and Ron's belief in CIA being somehow behind Chappaquiddick.

I agree with Jim's view of Damore's book, I have not read the DeWitt/Lange from 1993, but found Pinney's 'Chappaquiddick Speaks' from 2017 quite logical in its verdict, a Ted cover-up.

Andrew/Ron,  What evidence or suspicions for CIA?

I was being slightly flippant. It's been years since I studied it, but there are facts that don't match up with the official story. Saying flatly it was an intelligence operation is a bit of a stretch, of which I'm guilty, but it did take out the front runner for the 1972 Democratic presidential nomination, which was convenient for someone. And proof of CIA involvement wouldn't surprise a soul.

[Pete Mellor]

5 hours ago, Andrew Prutsok said:

I was being slightly flippant. It's been years since I studied it, but there are facts that don't match up with the official story. Saying flatly it was an intelligence operation is a bit of a stretch, of which I'm guilty, but it did take out the front runner for the 1972 Democratic presidential nomination, which was convenient for someone. And proof of CIA involvement wouldn't surprise a soul.

Ok cool Andrew, I think 'flippant' is allowed on here.  Pinney's book has a scientific slant that Columbo would be proud of, & I thought produced a logical explanation & no spooks involved.  Maybe Ron has other info.  I've only come across the Nixon/Hunt interest.  Also Ted's biography 'True Compass' is a wet job on the topic.

My verdict:-EMK guilty of manslaughter.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Pete Mellor said:

Ok cool Andrew, I think 'flippant' is allowed on here.  Pinney's book has a scientific slant that Columbo would be proud of, & I thought produced a logical explanation & no spooks involved.  Maybe Ron has other info.  I've only come across the Nixon/Hunt interest.  Also Ted's biography 'True Compass' is a wet job on the topic.

My verdict:-EMK guilty of manslaughter.

There is that Nixon recording about Teddy walking into a bear trap at Chappaquiddick, was it to Dean? I have never verified it but, the linguistics could have different meanings. A bit like knowing someone is a drunk, they are much easier to setup but, they also are more liable to do stupid stuff anyway.

From what I read Teddy turned up at breakfast none the wiser than anything was wrong, he greeted everyone with a warmth, its only when Gargan and Markham turn up for a chat that his face drops. 
 

I am not saying it was a CIA-op, only that no version makes sense to me other than he saw the cop, jumped out, told Mary Jo to drive on, he walked, she didn’t know the road and flew off the bridge. I hear conflicting records about whether that Edgartown passage could be swum on those tides. Conflicting opinions on the tire marks. Conflicting opinions on whether Ted could have got out of the car. 🤷‍♂️ Its a mess. 
 

I’d love to know more about the 1964 plane crash. I know this seems wild but, the JFK Jr plane crash is one of the most fishy narratives I have ever heard. 300 hours flight time and he apparently forgot how to use his scopes, the fuel pump was in the off position like the Egypt Air crash the same summer off NY and the only chair missing is the co-pilots in the wreckage. He did radio the tower, then he apparently didn’t. Witnesses say the sky was clear, news says foggy and he probably had spacial disorientation. The narrative runs that he is totally wreckless as he was just out of plaster and very inexperienced. Reading about him he was a very careful man, kept alcohol consumption low etc. His magazine was a big F you to governments. Was he gonna run for governor? Compete with Hilary? Was he researching his fathers death, what son could possibly leave it alone. He had a big weight on his shoulders like Bobby did. 

 

 

[Pete Mellor]

4 minutes ago, Chris Barnard said:

Its a mess. 

That sums up Chappaquiddick Chris.

+ moving off topic again....I'm a lot more persuaded that JFK Jr's death was extremely sus.  Witnesses on Martha's Vineyard seeing explosion in the sky!

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Pete Mellor said:

That sums up Chappaquiddick Chris.

+ moving off topic again....I'm a lot more persuaded that JFK Jr's death was extremely sus.  Witnesses on Martha's Vineyard seeing explosion in the sky!

Agree

Regarding JFK Jr - Another interesting point is that the rescue doesn’t start for like 15 hours. FAA regs state a search plane must go out in 8 mins when a plans drops out of the sky, its something like that. Plane disappears about 9:30pm off radar, Teddy is calling all and sundry from about 10:30pm and finally gets Bill Clinton on the blower at 6am. Search starts at 1pm, the US Navy takes over, despite JFK Jr being a civillian. They go and look in the wrong place claiming the beacon they picked up was a downed US Navy jet, despite there being no record of one being downed. Military aircraft also have a different signal to a Piper Saratoga. Did it take them 3 days to find the plane despite a signal? 
 

I find the fuel pump being off interesting, it has to be done manually. Altimeter bomb? 
 

Its probably one for another thread. Kilgallen definitely deserves a focus. 

[Derek Thibeault]

On 8/23/2022 at 1:55 PM, James DiEugenio said:

Welcome Andrew.

Again, almost everything of value on Kilgallen that Shaw uses comes from Sara Jordan's milestone article.

https://www.midtod.com/dorothy.html

Ok just read, I knew the story before, but this is a well put together article. I don't have to read the Shaw book, which I was going to. I had read Mary's Mosaic previously, thought it was ok. The discrepancies make sense.

[Henry Frost]

4 hours ago, Pete Mellor said:

That sums up Chappaquiddick Chris.

+ moving off topic again....I'm a lot more persuaded that JFK Jr's death was extremely sus.  Witnesses on Martha's Vineyard seeing explosion in the sky!

I was suspicious at first but this video changed my mind.  An experienced pilot uses a simulator to recreate what happened that tragic night:

Tl;dw  They took off late. It got dark. JFK Jr. could no longer see the coastline or horizon. The plane had it's own idiosyncrasies. He lost situational awareness and was overloaded. Plane crashed.

[Ron Bulman]

14 hours ago, Pete Mellor said:

I don't want to hijack this Kilgallen thread but I was interested in Andrew and Ron's belief in CIA being somehow behind Chappaquiddick.

I agree with Jim's view of Damore's book, I have not read the DeWitt/Lange from 1993, but found Pinney's 'Chappaquiddick Speaks' from 2017 quite logical in its verdict, a Ted cover-up.

Andrew/Ron,  What evidence or suspicions for CIA?

Originally it was remembering Tony Ulabewicz.  His showing up the morning Mary Jo was found, before it was announced that set off a bell years ago.  But he was reputedly Nixon's private investigator.

But then there was this self-published book by a guy named Robert Cutler.  Not Eisenhower's first ever National Security Advisor.  But a researcher from Boston named Robert Cutler in the early 70's put out a self-published book called "You The Jury".  Hunt and Sturgis seen at Martha's Vineyard that weekend.  More.

 Chapter 7, The Control of the Kennedys - Threats & Chappaquiddick, "THE TAKING OF AMERICA, 1-2-3", 1985 (ratical.org)

[Joe Bauer]

In my original post I provided a link to Mark Shaw's talk to the Commonwealth Club of San Francisco.

If you watch this Shaw speaking video I would imagine you would agree that he was quite engaging. Animated but not too so.

His reverence for Dorothy Kilgallen seemed sincere and I was impressed with how he successfully summarized her life and accomplishments to the full remarkable achievement and courageous integrity degree that they deserved.

His talk was not long. He kept it rather short. But it was packed with interesting facts and tid-bits that brought the DK story to life.

His audience was all older, retired folk. They seemed enthralled and alert and at the end like a swayed jury believing of his summation.

Shaw even had them chanting in unison with him "Justice for Dorothy Kilgallen" at the end of his presentation!

I have watched and listened to many JFK related event speakers over the years. Half just were not very good. After 45 minutes you would be fighting back yawns.

If any of them had given their talk to the Commonwealth Club instead of Shaw that day my guess is half the audience would have had their heads knocked back with jaws hanging open and eyes closed with loud snoring going on after 30 minutes.

Obviously Shaw got most of his information from the earlier article James Di. cites.

And he certainly doesn't give enough credit to the authors I admit.

The most compelling part of Shaw's presentation was the video taped interviews of Dorothy Kilgallen's 2 long time employed hair and make up guys.

Clearly DK was very close to them.

The first one was a great eyewitness.

He was "the first person" to come upon Dorothy after her death. He got a long and close up look at her and the entire death scene.

What he described told it all imo.

And those two fellows didn't have some nefarious and self-enriching reasons to share what they were told by DK and what they saw when she was found dead.

Their interview statements were convincingly credible imo.

How the NYPD could let DK's death case go uninvestigated after talking to these two guys (one a first on the scene eyewitness! ) smacks of the darkest motive suspicion.

Look, I think all of us know and believe DK was murdered.

The injustice of no justice for Dorothy Kilgallen is made more profound in the total 57 year long apathy of America to her remarkable achievement life and her JFK/Jack Ruby investigation related murder ... imo anyways.

And Melvin Belli sure does sound like he was mobbed up back then , no?

Edited August 29, 2022 by Joe Bauer