How did Fritz know when Ruby was in position to kill Oswald?

[Steve Thomas]

45 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Thanks, Steve.  There’s a lot of misinformation tucked into one short paragraph there.  You have to wonder how much is courtesy of the U.S. Army and how much is from Stringfellow.  

Interesting too that the Army document gives a physical description of “Oswald, Harvey Lee” is identical to the physical description of “Lee Henry Oswald” in the infamous CIA cable of October 10, 1963 (see below).  Most references to LHO’s height are either 5’ 9” or 5’ 11”; very few docs list his height at 5’ 10.

 

Jim,

Yes, it's hard to know where that information came from. I personally believe that there is a nexus - a pipeline of information - somewhere between U.S Army Reserves and the Dallas Police Department that we don't know anything about.

I once started compiling a list of references to this 5'10:, blue-eyed, bushy-browned hair person.

I keep reminding myself that on two occasions, Earlene Roberts testified that when the Dallas Police Detectives came knocking on her door, they were asking for Harvey Lee Oswald.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/24831-510/

1) CIA cable Lee Henry Oswald is 5'10” weighing 165 lbs, light brown, wavy hair with blue eyes.

October 10, 1963

http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=110013&relPageId=2

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/104-10428-10262.pdf

 

2) CIA cable to Dep't of State, FBI and Dep't of Navy

October 1, 1963

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/157-10014-10242.pdf

p. 436 “Probably identical to Lee Henry Oswald” 5'10”, light brown wavy hair, blue eyes.

 

3) Stringfellow Cable

In this referenced cable, Harvey Lee Oswald was described as 5'10" tall, 165 lbs, with light brown hair and blue eyes.

https://ia601309.us.archive.org/22/items/nsia-ArmyIntelligenceJFK/nsia-ArmyIntelligenceJFK/AI%20JFK%2001.pdf

 

4) The initial description broadcast over the DPD radio was for a suspect 5"10" tall weighing 165 lbs and nobody knows where that description came from

 

5) DPD Sergeant Gerald Hill: We went on to the scene of the shooting where we found a squad car parked against the right or the south curb on 10th Street, with a pool of blood on the left-hand side of it near the side of the car.
Tippit had already been removed. The first man that came up to me, he said, "The man that shot him was a white male about 5'10", weighing 160 to 170 pounds, had on a Jacket and a pair of dark trousers, and brown bushy hair." http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/hill_gl.htm

 

6) Report of John Fain (FBI Dallas) dated July 3, 1961. CE 980 p. 388, CE 821 (17H) p. 706.

1 copy to ONI New Orleans

On April 28, 1960 Mrs. Marguerite Oswald provided the following physical description of Lee Harvey Oswald: (17H706) https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1134#relPageId=732&tab=page

5'10" tall, 165 lbs light brown wavy hair, blue eyes.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135#relPageId=399&tab=page

 

Posted by Bill Simpich in the Education Forum 10/11/2009

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/4023-lee-henry-oswald/

A final anomaly brought out in "Popov's Mole" is a crucial key to the assassination itself

A false physical description of Oswald as 5 feet, 10 inches and 165 pounds can be found in three crucial places:

1. This description originated in a memo written by FBI Special John Fain in May, 1960, supposedly based from talking to Oswald’s mother, although Oswald’s weight never varied any more than 130-150 and was 150 at the time of his death. LHO's height was generally described as 5 feet, 9 inches, though the Marines reported Oswald as 5 feet, 11 inches.

LHO seemed to favor the 5'11" description when dealing with government officials, for some still-unknown purpose.

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/w...eport_0084b.htm

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...mp;relPageId=10

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...bsPageId=792581

2. “The last known pre-assassination use of this physical description was in the second of the twin October 10 messages was a cable sent two hours later to the station in Mexico: "Oswald is five feet ten inches, one hundred sixty five pounds..." Although Egerter checked it for accuracy, "accuracy" is not the issue. The issue is how this particular description was chosen from all the descriptions out there.”

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...p;relPageId=157

3. Finally, the broadcast over the Dallas police radio fifteen minutes after JFK was shot was that the unidentified assassin was “5/10, 165 pounds...”

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/w...Vol23_0438a.htm

“Although confused commentators have claimed that Howard Brennan was the source, it's well documented that an "unidentified citizen" gave the above description to Inspector Sawyer after he saw someone looking like Oswald running from the Book Depository immediately after the assassination. The citizen did not comply with the sheriff's request to come to the office later to fill out a report, and Hoover said that the "sheriff's office can locate no record on this citizen".

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=57753&relPageId=109

Even after the Warren Report was published, Hoover responded in November, 1964 to general counsel J. Lee Rankin's request that according to the Dallas police the information came from an ‘unidentified citizen’.”

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...mp;relPageId=72 -

Huh? What is that all about?

also see Gerald McKnight's (Breach of Trust, p. 109)

Rankin repeated his request to Hoover for more information on this incident, but apparently to no avail.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...mp;relPageId=33

 

Is this "unidentified citizen" someone with access to government records, and which set of records does he have access to, and how intertwined is he with this whole Harvey Lee Oswald mess?

Steve Thomas

Edited April 7, 2022 by Steve Thomas

[Steve Thomas]

7 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Jim,

Yes, it's hard to know where that information came from. I personally believe that there is a nexus - a pipeline of information - somewhere between U.S Army Reserves and the Dallas Police Department that we don't know anything about.

 

Jim,

For me personally, this was illustrated in the WC testimony of Jack Revill.

Lieutenant Jack Revill testified before the Warren Commission on May 13, 1964. (Bob Carroll had already testified a month earlier – see below)

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/revill2.htm

The questioning concerns a Report that Revill wrote out at approximately 3:30 to 3:35 on the afternoon of the 22^nd concerning Lee Harvey Oswald at 605 Elsbeth St. Up to a certain point, Revill ia being questioned by General counsel, J, Lee Rankin, but when the subject of Oswald's address of 605 Elsbeth comes up, Allen Dulles takes over.

This Report is CE 709 at (17H495)

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1134#relPageId=521&tab=page

 

Mr. REVILL. That is what they gave me.
Mr. RANKIN. You found that out?
Mr. DULLES. This is an address he once lived at.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know that?
Mr. DUlLES. This is correct. I want to find out what he knows about it.

Notice the interplay between Rankin and Dulles. Dulles seems to know about the Elsbeth St. address and he wants to know how Revill knows about it.

 

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask a question? Where did you get this address that you put on of 605 Elsbeth Street, do you recall?
Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; from Detective E. B. Carroll or Detective Taylor.
Mr. DULLES. Are they subordinates?
Mr. REVILL. No; they are detectives assigned to the special service bureau. One of them works the narcotics squad and one of them is assigned to the vice unit.
Mr. DULLES. You never ascertained where they got it?
Mr. REVILL. No, sir; this might be the address that they got from Oswald, I do not know. I never even thought about it until you brought up the point that this is not the address.
Mr. DULLES. Can you find out where they got this address?
Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; I can.
Mr. DULLES. I think that would be useful. I would like to know that. I would like to know where they got this address also.

 

Mr. REVILL. It would have been the same day because this was made within an hour----

The CHAIRMAN. I think that is all. Thank you, again, lieutenant.
Mr. REVILL. I will attempt to find out on that address, and I shall let Mr. Sorrels know, with Secret Service.

It's Dulles, not Rankin who keeps pushing Revill where he got this address. Is Dulles concerned that Revill knew about a connection of a Harvey Lee Oswald to Elsbeth St, and how Revill would know about that? Just about the time when Revill would have revealed when he obtained this address, he is cut off.

Warren Commission Document# 948 is a memo from Sorrels to Inspector Kelley dated May 19, 1964.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11344#relPageId=2&tab=page

In that memo, Sorrels says that Revill contacted Sorrels (it does not say how this contact was made), and said that Revill told him he got the 605 Elsbeth address orally from Bob Carroll. As the driver of the car that took Oswald from the Theater to the police station, Carroll allegedly looked back over his shoulder and read the address off a Dallas Public Library card that had been removed from Oswald's billfold by one of the officers in the back seat. Carroll allegedly said that he misread the number as 605 instead of 602.

This is six days after Revilll's WC testimony, and one month after Bob Carroll told the WC that no mention of an address had been made in the car transporting Oswald to City Hall.

Detective Bob Carroll's testimony before the Warren Commission April 3, 1964

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/carroll.htm

 

Mr. BELIN. Did he give two names? Or did someone in the car read from the identification?
Mr. CARROLL. Someone in the car may have read from the identification. I know two names, the best I recall, were mentioned.
Mr. BELIN. Were any addresses mentioned?
Mr. CARROLL. Not that I recall; no, sir.

In their after-action reports filed with Chief Curry on December 3rd, neither Caroll (Portal to Texas History)

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth340230/m1/1/?q=Bob%20Carroll

nor Detective E.E. Taylor, Special Services Bureau, Narcotics Section (Portal to Texas History) https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth340230/m1/1/?q=E.E.%20Taylor make any mention of giving Revill Oswald’s address.

Steve Thomas

 

 

[James DiEugenio]

I think the article is pretty interesting overall.

Dave and John go further with the 10th and Patton wallet than anyone has.  Except I would not call it a throw down wallet. According to my information it was never seen on the ground.

They also do a nice job on Westbrook.

I have to say though in Evidence of Revision, I think Ruby is at first hiding behind Harrison before he slides over to Croy.  Harrison is bigger than Croy.

All those diagrams are valuable to understanding the layout of the area.

They also did a very nice job with Ruby's maid.  Who the heck was that at Ruby's?

Intersting leads that Steve is following up on between the cops and the 112th.  If you can believe it, a researcher has been sending me this stuff of late.  He has like four separate ones.  He is trying to find out if they are genuine or fakes.

Edited April 8, 2022 by James DiEugenio

[Jim Hargrove]

Hi, Jim

The 10th and Patton wallet is a smoking gun in the framing of LHO for both the Tippit and JFK murders, so it would be nice to get the terminology right.  James Hosty broke the news of that wallet in 1996 when “Assignment Oswald” was published.   On page 62 Hosty wrote: “Near the puddle of blood where Tippit’s body had lain, Westbrook had found a man’s leather wallet.  In it, he discovered identification for Lee Oswald and Alek Hidell….”

Of course, assuming Hosty’s information came from Westbrook, we don’t believe it, nor do we believe Croy when he said that he gave the wallet to Westbrook.  I think they’re both lying, but there is no doubt that a wallet with LHO and Hidell ID’s was shown by Westbrook at 10th and Patton.  Was it a “throwdown” wallet?  Who knows.

On the Blackie Harrison business, Jim Turner said that from the time he saw Ruby walking towards him down the ramp, it was less than 30 seconds before he (Ruby) shot Oswald.  From the video clips (3 stills from it below) Ruby is standing at Croy’s left shoulder waiting for Oswald to appear, and he’s never seen on the right side of Croy, where Harrison was standing.

Here’s a crop of the big WC map showing everyone’s position at the time Oswald was shot.  Ruby’s path is shown as a dotted line.

And here are three stills taken from the footage.

 

[Jim Hargrove]

On 4/7/2022 at 8:23 AM, Steve Thomas said:

1. This description originated in a memo written by FBI Special John Fain in May, 1960, supposedly based from talking to Oswald’s mother, although Oswald’s weight never varied any more than 130-150 and was 150 at the time of his death. LHO's height was generally described as 5 feet, 9 inches, though the Marines reported Oswald as 5 feet, 11 inches.

LHO seemed to favor the 5'11" description when dealing with government officials, for some still-unknown purpose.

Steve,

This is fascinating because, as you state, several USMC documents list LHO as 5"11" (71").  I've talked to a number of armed forces vets about this, and they said there was no way that height was self-reported in USMC medical exams, nor is it likely he was wearing shoes or boots, since true height could not be determined that way.

Of course, the autopsy report listed LHO as 5'9".  Are we to believe this young man shrunk by 2 inches in so short a time?  Here's a chart John A. made decades ago about some, though not all, of the references to LHO's height.

[Steve Thomas]

19 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Steve,

This is fascinating because, as you state, several USMC documents list LHO as 5"11" (71"). 

Jim,

Just to be clear, I was quoting Bill Simpich.

Steve Thomas

[Ron Bulman]

I just went back yesterday and read the whole article by John and David yesterday.  The part about the timing, Westbrook watching the All Right parking lot and Western Union then going to give Fritz a wink or nod sounds more logical than anything I've seen before.  As Jim Dieugenio mentioned the diagrams and pictures bring to life how it likely happened.  Some of the diagrams are hard to read, it would be nice to be able to enlarge them.

I have to wonder if Dean, in charge of basement security, wanted to be as far away as possible where he knew Ruby would enter and from where he also knew the shooting would occur. 

[Ron Bulman]

On 3/30/2022 at 3:27 PM, Jim Hargrove said:

John,

In Dallas, it’s nearly a mile from 106 S. Harwood St. (the old City Hall building) to Dealey Plaza, and so I doubt that is the Court House building, but I’ve only been to the area once.  I’ll try to ask John about it next time we talk.

Also, we just added a couple of introductory paragraphs to the essay, which I thought put the assassination of Oswald into perspective.  You’ll may have to manually refresh your browser view to see it.

Jim, City Hall and the annex at 106 S Harwood is actually on the corner of Main and Harwood, 9 blocks E/NE of Dealy Plaza.  The "Old Red" courthouse (still in use in 1963) is on Houston between Main and Commerce, overlooking Dealy Plaza.  Across Main from it was a county building housing Bill Decker's Sherrif department and the county jail.  Where they were transferring Oswald, and where Ruby was held for trial.

Immediately south of "Old Red" is the new Dallas Criminal Courts building on the corner of Commerce and Houston, under construction in November 1963.  Where Richard Randolph Carr was seeking employment at the time of the assassination.

Hope this helps.  Maybe google maps will more.

Google Maps 

[Steve Thomas]

I posted this back in 2016:

"Let's get our story straight"

By Steve Thomas, October 25, 2016 in JFK Assassination Debate

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/23156-lets-get-our-story-straight/?tab=comments#comment-336108

“I approached Oswald then and, out of the hearing of the others except perhaps one of Captain Fritz's men, said that as a Secret Service agent; … we were therefore very anxious to talk with him to make certain that the correct story was developing as it related to the assassination.”

Oswald said he'd be glad to discuss this once he got an attorney.

Thomas Kelley. Warren Report. Appendix XI. Reports Relating to the Interrogation of Lee Harvey Oswald at the Dallas Police Department p. 630

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=946#relPageId=654&tab=page

What was Fritz doing while Kelley talked to Oswald privately at 9:30 AM on Sunday mornig?

Steve Thomas

[Jim Hargrove]

Steve,

Kelley’s report is interesting (Why on earth was Harry Holmes there with Fritz and Oswald?) but it seems clear even from that report that it was Fritz’s call when to start transferring Oswald. It isn’t all that surprising that there were some other phone calls and, from Kelley’s description, it sounds like that brief interview with Oswald was right there in Fritz’s office, although Kelley thought Fritz didn’t hear it.  Do you read it otherwise?

[Jim Hargrove]

18 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

I just went back yesterday and read the whole article by John and David yesterday.  The part about the timing, Westbrook watching the All Right parking lot and Western Union then going to give Fritz a wink or nod sounds more logical than anything I've seen before.  As Jim Dieugenio mentioned the diagrams and pictures bring to life how it likely happened.  Some of the diagrams are hard to read, it would be nice to be able to enlarge them.

I have to wonder if Dean, in charge of basement security, wanted to be as far away as possible where he knew Ruby would enter and from where he also knew the shooting would occur. 

Ron,

Thanks for your posts.  I think John’s theory about Westbrook alerting Fritz when Ruby was nearing the building makes more sense explaining the incredible timing of events than any other, especially the WC’s.

Your remark about some of the diagrams being too small to read is well taken.  In the first draft of the Web article, I had many of the diagrams MUCH larger, but John A. and I agreed that it just made a mess out of the page layout.  Do you think download links to larger images of some of the critical illustrations would help?  Would people actually use them?  John has so many details in his write-ups that I’m always conscious of trying to make the page move along as efficiently as possible.

Thanks also for your notes on the Dallas area.  Knowledge of that is one of numerous weaknesses in my understanding of the case, which is problematic because John A. knows Dallas so well.  I'm still thinking about Dean's place in all of this, as, obviously, others are as well.

[John Butler]

20 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

This is fascinating because, as you state, several USMC documents list LHO as 5"11" (71").  I've talked to a number of armed forces vets about this, and they said there was no way that height was self-reported in USMC medical exams, nor is it likely he was wearing shoes or boots, since true height could not be determined that way.

Of course, the autopsy report listed LHO as 5'9".  Are we to believe this young man shrunk by 2 inches in so short a time?  Here's a chart John A. made decades ago about some, though not all, of the references to LHO's height.

Jim,

This information has always been fascinating to me.  The stats fit me is why, except it took 50 years to lose those 2 inches.  I'll make a copy of this chart.

Here again, if I am remembering correctly, I was told long ago that the height of a person was to be measured correctly because it was one of the ways to identify a body found on the battlefield. 

This conversation between Steve and You is very interesting.  I read David and John's new work.  Great stuff.  As far as a "throwdown", it's a loose term generally in reference to an unidentified pistol dropped at a crime scene to throw off the investigators reading of the facts of the event.  I believe Oswald's revolver was a throwdown.  I think he was not supposed to walk out of the Texas Theater.

A wallet fits a loose definition of "throwdown".  I am sure I remembered the wallet on the ground.  Thanks for refreshing that memory.  

Edited April 9, 2022 by John Butler

[Steve Thomas]

1 hour ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Steve,

Kelley’s report is interesting (Why on earth was Harry Holmes there with Fritz and Oswald?) but it seems clear even from that report that it was Fritz’s call when to start transferring Oswald. It isn’t all that surprising that there were some other phone calls and, from Kelley’s description, it sounds like that brief interview with Oswald was right there in Fritz’s office, although Kelley thought Fritz didn’t hear it.  Do you read it otherwise?

Jim,

Kelley's private conversation with Oswald comes at the tail end of the interview. Counting Kelley, there were 8 people present besides Oswald. Kelley even says it was in Fritz's office. After Kelley wrapped up, Oswald was given a change of clothes and Fritz made a "number of telephone calls" to make sure the preparations were in place.

(I don't know why a "number of calls" had to be placed, and I've always been curious to who the "one of Frit'sz men" was who might or might not have been in earshot. I couldn't find any corroboration for this last point in the reports or testimony of people like Sims or Boyd.

Steve Thomas

[Ron Bulman]

10 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Ron,

Thanks for your posts.  I think John’s theory about Westbrook alerting Fritz when Ruby was nearing the building makes more sense explaining the incredible timing of events than any other, especially the WC’s.

Your remark about some of the diagrams being too small to read is well taken.  In the first draft of the Web article, I had many of the diagrams MUCH larger, but John A. and I agreed that it just made a mess out of the page layout.  Do you think download links to larger images of some of the critical illustrations would help?  Would people actually use them?  John has so many details in his write-ups that I’m always conscious of trying to make the page move along as efficiently as possible.

Thanks also for your notes on the Dallas area.  Knowledge of that is one of numerous weaknesses in my understanding of the case, which is problematic because John A. knows Dallas so well.  I'm still thinking about Dean's place in all of this, as, obviously, others are as well.

I'd use the links to enlarge.  Can't speak for others, it might encourage them to look closer.  Maybe leave the diagrams as they are with a link below to enlarge? Food for thought. 

[Steve Thomas]

On 4/8/2022 at 5:42 PM, Ron Bulman said:

Jim, City Hall and the annex at 106 S Harwood is actually on the corner of Main and Harwood, 9 blocks E/NE of Dealy Plaza.  The "Old Red" courthouse (still in use in 1963) is on Houston between Main and Commerce, overlooking Dealy Plaza.  Across Main from it was a county building housing Bill Decker's Sherrif department and the county jail.  Where they were transferring Oswald, and where Ruby was held for trial.

Immediately south of "Old Red" is the new Dallas Criminal Courts building on the corner of Commerce and Houston, under construction in November 1963.  Where Richard Randolph Carr was seeking employment at the time of the assassination.

Hope this helps.  Maybe google maps will more.

Google Maps 

Ron,

I once read an account of the precautions that Will Fritz took when planning the transfer of Jack Ruby to jail after his trial was over. Fritz ran the route himself and was calling back into headquarters using pay phones.

(The bit about using pay phones really intrigued me. Did he suspect his phones were tapped?)

I haven't been able to find that account again. Has anyone else ever seen it?

Steve Thomas

Edited April 10, 2022 by Steve Thomas