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The timing and content of the "we both know who was responsible" phone call of Ruth and Michael Paine


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1 hour ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

I never commented about their opinion that right-wingers killed JFK. Makes sense that it would be their first reaction though. LHO had plenty of motive, the biggest of which (IMO) was he wanted to be big and JFK did that for him instantly. It didn't matter that he liked JFK (although that is overstated IMO). JFK was a means to an end.

Yeah, that must be why he denied ANY knowledge or the crimes he was being held for and dejectedly (according to at least one source), said now everybody will know who I am.  Knowing that he could no longer function in his former activities as his cover was blown.  That is the exact opposite of "being big" in your terminology.  Your reasoning is flawed IMHO.

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21 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

Marina was extremely opinionated and critical of Lee. In the eyes of good Quakers, she was not the po' lil' mouse abused by da big bad evil husband those blaming Lee would choose to pretend she was. She was not subservient. She was verbally abusive, perhaps at times physically abusive. She would denigrate his manhood in front of others. It's not fair, but the thinking at that time--and perhaps even at this time--was that a disobedient and nagging wife can drive a man to madness. (I think I got some of this from DeMohrenschildt's book.) 

Yes, Jeannie DeMohrenschildt did say many of the things Marina would do to insult Lee as you mentioned.

"look at this idiot" Marina blurted out when she and Jeannie saw Lee's rifle in the closet.

 She openly stated that Lee didn't satisfy her sexually. He would too often rather read a book than have sex.

Jeannie thought Marina sharing this very personal and private personal relationship problem between her and Lee with others was abhorrent.

Lee didn't allow Marina to smoke but after Jeanny DeM gave him a blunt European mother tongue lashing he relented somewhat.

Marina simply was not attracted to Lee and his mannerisms, his interests, his low sex drive anymore.

And after seeing these fairly well off White Russians, Lee seemed like a loser to her financially I would think.

I think both Lee and Marina were abusive toward each other. Both very frustrated with each other.

Although I think Lee still loved her in the end. And always much more than she loved him.

And he was always physically attracted to this sparkling blue eyed beauty.

When you read a little more of Marina's personal make up through the testimony of many who knew her 1 on 1 she comes off as a surprisingly aggressive young woman ( a proper mores defying cigarette smoking one at that) and more status craving than what Lee could ever provide. And a woman who's sexual needs and cravings were way beyond anything poor Lee could meet and satisfy. 

Nonetheless, Lee and Marina were history by 11,22,1963 and Lee knew it.

George and Jeanne de Mohrenschildt - Lee Harvey Oswalds Russian friends in Fort Worth, TX.
 

George and Jeanne de Mohrenschildt - Lee Harvey Oswalds Russian friends in Fort Worth, TX.

 

 

Edited by Joe Bauer
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3 hours ago, Richard Price said:

Yeah, that must be why he denied ANY knowledge or the crimes he was being held for and dejectedly (according to at least one source), said now everybody will know who I am.  Knowing that he could no longer function in his former activities as his cover was blown.  That is the exact opposite of "being big" in your terminology.  Your reasoning is flawed IMHO.

He wasn't suicidal Richard. With the death penalty in Texas, he wasn't about to admit his culpability. He had what he wanted; the eyes of the world were upon him. But that is just my opinion based on my study of his life.

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Barger introduced the false date (Nov 23 rather than 22) into the record which allowed Michael Paine to categorically deny the phone call took place at all to the Warren Commission. Then he reappears in 1976 in a newspaper article written by Hugh Aynesworth, not an objective reporter on this case, to seemingly run some damage control after the FBI materials were revealed to the public. The varying stories - Barger , the telephone company employee, the Paine’s - don’t really line up. I am fairly convinced that a wiretap on the Paine home caught a conversation at 1PM, a time confirmed by the Paines, and the official investigators thought it best be buried - for obvious reasons looking at the minor furore it created when revealed in 1976.

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2 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

What is Jeanne’s background?

She worked with Zapruder designing/making dresses in the 1950's.  Seems like she had a more suspicious acquaintance, friend, affiliation but I don't remember the details.  let me think about where I read this.  

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How come nobody is talking about the two phone calls between Michael and Ruth Paine, as reported by Greg Doudna?

 I've copied them below for everybody's convenience.

Greg believes they are both from the same phone call. I believe that they are separate phone calls and that the second one was fake and created by the CIA plotters in order to frame the Paines. (I described in my earlier post how it  frames the Paines.)

 

Phone Call 1

(Michael calls Ruth.)

Michael:  Comments that he felt sure Lee Harvey Oswald had killed the president, but did not feel Oswald was responsible, and says, "We both know who is responsible."

 

Phone Call 2  (Faked)

(Ruth calls Michael.)

Ruth:  Will Lee get the bonus loot?

Michael:  What are you calling me, and don't mention my name on the phone. Kennedy has to be dead for to get the bonus.

Ruth:  He is dead. They've just announced it on the radio.

(Operator calls Ruth back to check her number (for the correct number charge).)

Ruth:  Don't you call here again. You will be contacted. They are not suspicious of him, no.

 

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Greg says that, the phone call I refer to as Phone Call 2, was actually another portion of Phone Call 1. In other words, that there was only one call (IIUC). And that it makes no sense only because it was remembered incorrectly by the operator who heard it. Below, I make Greg's assumed corrections that he says makes it work.

I vehemently disagree with Greg regarding these corrections, as well as there being only one phone call that contains both messages.

 

Phone Call 2  (Faked)

(Ruth calls Michael.)

Ruth:  Will Lee get the bonus loot a pro bone lawyer?

Michael:  What are you calling me, and don't mention my name on the phone. Kennedy has to be dead for to get the bonus Lee to get pro bono.

Ruth:  He is dead. They've just announced it on the radio.

(Operator calls Ruth back to check her number (for the correct number charge).)

Ruth:  Don't you call here again. You will be contacted. They are not suspicious of him, no.

 

Edited by Sandy Larsen
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Just to note, first of all, if the Paines thought it was right wing radicals who killed JFK, they wouldn’t have said “we know who did it,” which is cryptic and somewhat anonymous, and not how people talk unless they are trying to avoid saying something specific.

Second of all I find that post above about Marina, portrayed as sexually wanton, as some kind of stereotypical tramp who, god forbid, smoked cigarettes, to be extremely sexist and offensive. It is one thing to simply be citing old-style mores; but another to use that kind of tone. I find that post to be very troubling.

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9 hours ago, Lawrence Schnapf said:

Tracy-  if LHO wanted to be "big", then he would have admitted to the murder instead of saying he was a patsy. 

I already commented on that Larry. He had what he wanted-all the TV cameras and newspapers in the world were focused on him. No need to confess with a death penalty in Texas.

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20 hours ago, Allen Lowe said:

Just to note, first of all, if the Paines thought it was right wing radicals who killed JFK, they wouldn’t have said “we know who did it,” which is cryptic and somewhat anonymous, and not how people talk unless they are trying to avoid saying something specific.

Second of all I find that post above about Marina, portrayed as sexually wanton, as some kind of stereotypical tramp who, god forbid, smoked cigarettes, to be extremely sexist and offensive. It is one thing to simply be citing old-style mores; but another to use that kind of tone. I find that post to be very troubling.

I see your point regards my somewhat immature tone and take on Marina and I apologize. 

However, citing Marina's own words to Jeannie DeMohrenschildt the truth was that she "was" sexually unsatisfied with Lee.

Didn't mean she was sexually wanton of course.

Smoking was the norm for half the adult population in the US back then it seems. So, Marina liked to occasionally light up. No problem there. It didn't mean anything regards her personal character and I shouldn't have even half way inferred such if I did.

I have edited out one paragraph in my last post regards Marina. Childish of me to have even postulated it's content. 

 

Edited by Joe Bauer
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The Paines (both Ruth and her estranged husband Michael) were a tough couple to get a true understanding take on.

Sometimes, I feel Ruth was simply a truly well meaning Quaker humanitarian type who really just wanted to help Marina and her children through extremely financially stressed times. Coupled with the fact of Marina's Russian birth and life background which intrigued and even attracted Ruth to her.

Just as Ruth Paine has so often explained in interview after interview over decades.

Her first meeting Marina and Lee may honestly have been innocently happenstance. Ruth was always interested in the Russian language and people and had been active in a moral mission to try to do "something" in her small way to improve the heightened tensions between our two countries. She knew some of the White Russians in the Dallas area due to her making contact with them in her Russian language learning efforts.

Interesting to me that these two couples ( Paines and the DeMohrenschildts ) who are often suspected of being intelligence connected with nefarious agendas regarding the Oswalds, seemed to be the only persons in Lee and Marinas world who did more to help them through their poverty stressed struggles than anyone by far.

What Ruth did for Marina and her two children was truly extraordinary when you consider her housing, feeding, driving, moving, medical help securing, and everything else...over a period of months! If Ruth was a spy, she sure was a super kind and generous one for Marina when Marina really needed help on that level.

The DeMohrenschildt's also did a lot for Marina and Lee.

Even today, very few " non-family" people reach out and directly help young couples who are as stressed as Marina and Lee were financially on the level that Ruth and The DeM's did.

I always contemplated that if Lee was on some intelligence agency payroll, or even a paid FBI informant, his compensation must have been so low it couldn't keep them in even rundown apartments for more than a few months at a time.

I could see such a person wanting to keep a low profile with maybe even a cover of poverty to keep up the ruse...but not to the degree of the Oswald's. Cock roach filled apartment in New Orleans. Having to use an open suitcase as a crib for baby June. Letting Marina's painful tooth decay problem go untreated until Ruth Paine as well as proper pre-natal care for Marina with Ruth Paine's help.

Never a car. Always having to get around by city or Greyhound bus. Dependent on others for moving, housing, clothes and food, baby items, etc?

If Oswald was humiliated by having to accept so much outside help for his wife and children's basic needs, you would think he may have demanded his possible nefarious employers pay him more than the pittance amount that couldn't even pay the rent on a decent apartment?

Michael Paine. The spoiled kid from a wealthy politically involved family.

Intriguing family political activities all while he was growing up. If you read his father bio it is an amazing life long engagement with socialist types and groups.

His interaction with Lee Oswald was one where he wanted to know Lee's political views more than any other subject.

Michael Paine was quite engaged politically himself in his normal personal life. He attended at least one or two political group meetings of so-called radical groups. He liked to engage young college age people in political discussions in at least one local coffee shop where these college kids hung out?

M. Paine seems more suspect in any political intrigue talk than Ruth imo. Even his job of "Model Plane designer" for a major "sensitive work" contractor Bell Helicopter corporation which needed clearance raises an eye brow...no?

Just some thoughts on this intriguing couple.

 

Edited by Joe Bauer
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13 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

She worked with Zapruder designing/making dresses in the 1950's.  Seems like she had a more suspicious acquaintance, friend, affiliation but I don't remember the details.  let me think about where I read this.  

German? Russian? 

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This thread opens up a lot of interesting areas to discuss regarding both Lee and Marina Oswald, as well as the Paines.

If Lee was some sort of intelligence operative, owning a car would mean that he could be tracked via the license plate. Traveling via bus would allow him to be "lost in the crowd," as nobody on a bus remembers EVERYONE else who rode that bus. [Even the supposed witnesses to Lee's alleged bus ride to Mexico don't tell the same story.]

Let's entertain one more idea here. Instead of Michael and Ruth Paine being CIA operatives WITH operative knowledge of the assassination plot [as some have suggested], what if they were, indeed very low-level CIA operatives with only "need-to-know" information about the assassination...to the point that they may have been used, but totally in the dark that the assassination was to be the result of the operation they were a part of? Think "compartmentalization." THEN the "We both know who is responsible" comment would indicate that while they weren't privy to the plot, after the fact they could put 2 and 2 together.

I believe, based upon circumstantial evidence, that George Bouhe, George deMohrenschildt, and several in the White Russian community were involved in different levels of spying for the US government. And they created the connection between the Oswalds and the Paines. And am I the only one who thinks that George and Jeanne deMohrenschildt playing the "get TF out of Dodge" card IMMEDIATELY prior to the assassination WASN'T merely coincidental? 

I think that Ruth Paine may have been reporting back to someone on what Marina was saying to her, and to what Lee was doing, those times when she knew where he was. But I don't think the Paines knew the big picture; otherwise, they probably would've refused their roles in keeping tabs on the Oswalds. [And I do believe that Marina, with her relative in Russian intelligence, was Ruth's assignment. By having Marina move in with her, Ruth could keep tabs on who Marina communicated with, particularly who she sent letters to, because I'm convinced that US intelligence wasn't unaware of who Marina's relatives were. They had to be sure that Marina wasn't Russian spy. Ruth was, essentially, her "babysitter."]

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