The incredible allegation that Ruth Paine did surveillance on Castro sympathizers

[Ron Bulman]

34 minutes ago, Denny Zartman said:

Kirk, Ruth Paine wasn't a spy, she was an asset. Theres a difference. An asset can live a regular life and be pressed into service when needed.

And there is nothing "greatly ambiguous" about the fact that she cold-called Truly and got Oswald his job at the TSBD. If you believe the conspirators just got lucky when placing Oswald in the building, that's your right, but few people are going to take you seriously. 

We have to sit through Greg's hogwash about Oswald requesting a job in a tall office building. Gee whiz, it sure makes sense then that he applied to be a baggage handler at an airport, since we all know baggage handlers work in tall buildings.

Now you understand why she wacomittie sn't questioned by the HSCA and the ARRB.

You bring up an interesting point Denny.  The most questioned witness(es) by way more than beyond far by the Warren Omission.  

Never questioned by the House Sub Committee on Assassinations (HSCA), which concluded Conspiracy , without them.

Never questioned by the Assassinations Record Review Board (ARRB), Doug Horne's work outstanding on other subjects.

Why not if they were so interesting to the WC?  

[Joe Bauer]

There are many main characters in the Lee and Marina Oswald story that leave one unsure about their involvement with them in nefarious ways more than simple good will intentioned ones.

Regards Ruth Paine. 

No matter how much is reported about her possible asset work, travel and other odd activities one has to admit how much Ruth did for and gave to Marina and her babies at a time when they truly needed someone to step in like Ruth did, especially right up to, during and right after Marina just gave birth.

No one else was stepping forward on the total help giving commitment level Ruth was.

Robert Oswald and his wife? Other White Russians? Social services?

Ruth took Marina and her children into her own fairly small home where she had two children of her own. She paid for most all of Marina and her babie's basic needs.

Shelter and utilities, food, transportation especially in setting Marina up with pre-natal medical care. She allowed Lee to come and visit and even spend the night.

Whether there was something more nefarious going on with RP, or even if she had developed a kind of crush on Marina ... one still has to acknowledge her doing more for Marina and her children than 98% of society ever would. Taking them into her own small home and providing 95% of their basic needs. I don't think Ruth ever asked Marina, or even Lee, for a penny of shared costs expenses did she?

Ruth's background and her family's background certainly may be open to some curious scrutiny. Her sister's employment for one. Same with Michael Paine.

Where that leads is where it leads I guess.

I know a little about the Quakers. Love their active involvement humanitarianism and non-violent commitment to peace.

I am not convinced that Ruth wasn't sincere in her involvement with others and her motivations in helping them.

Even on the grand scale of improving relations between cold war adversaries and the very real threat of devastating conflict.

Also, the woman sang in choirs, folk danced, listened to Peter, Paul And Mary and Kingston Trio records, watched Lawrence Welk on TV, her husband bowled and she actively participated in trying to desegregate Dallas area libraries and other facilities and sympathized with the civil rights movement. A true liberal.

Maybe I'm just totally naive about how well assets can be set up to look so every day normal and innocently humanitarian minded nice and kind?

 

 

 

 

Edited June 5, 2022 by Joe Bauer

[James DiEugenio]

Joe:

You have the sequence wrong.  And its an important point.

When George DeMohrenschildt  entered the picture, the White Russian community as a whole did all they could to aid Lee and Marina.  There are many instances of this that one can find: they helped them move, they furnished things like baby carriages.   And this went on for not just days, or weeks, but months.

It was only when the Baron had that party, and invited the Paines to it, that this Good Samaritanism got more narrow and focused. In fact, one of the most amazing things  in the Paine tale is this: three weeks after meeting Marina one on one, Ruth penned a letter to her asking her to move in.

Let me ask a question: has anyone here ever met a member of the same sex at a gathering and been so taken with them that they wrote a letter asking that person to live with them?  I ask the question because I have never  ever had such an experience.  I much liked David Mamet,  I had no such inclination.

This is important for another reason.  That gathering was arranged by the Baron.  In the film, Max asks Ruth:  why would a member of the White Russian community befriend an alleged Communist? George D. later confessed the reason: he would have never even thought of doing so if not given such instructions by his CIA handler, J. Walton Moore.  As described in the film by myself and Peter Scott, George left for Haiti in April, had a briefing in the DC area with the the CIA and military intelligence and then had 300 K deposited into his account.  As I ask in the film: was this for Mission Accomplished?

One of the strongest parts of the film is the segue from the Baron to Priscilla Johnson.  Because after the likely forced cut off between Ruth and Marina, PJM entered the picture--and she stayed there for a long time.  Like 13 years.  PJM always denied she was with the CIA.  She once even threatened to sue Jerry Policoff over this.  Its a good thing she did not because as Max shows in the film, the ARRB pretty much sealed the deal on her. And he shows the documents.

So here is my question:  you have one CIA asset escorting the Oswalds around Dallas Fort Worth upon their return from the USSR.  You had another picking up Marina after the assassination and becoming her personal escort then; even taking her to Arizona  and introducing her to some wealthy people. And PJM finally writes a book, completely backing the Warren Report.

In the interim, you had Ruth and Michael Paine: introduced to the Oswalds by the Baron, and then replaced by  PJM.  And the Secret Service discourages Marina from seeing Ruth after the assassination for Ruth is too obviously sympathetic to the CIA.  After all, both Ruth and PJM were producing "evidence" Oswald was in Mexico City, when in fact Marina initially insisted to the Secret Service he was not.  All this is a coincidence?

The film makes this point rather subtly; I have made it more bluntly.

Edited June 4, 2022 by James DiEugenio

[W. Tracy Parnell]

1 hour ago, James DiEugenio said:

I much liked David Mamet,  I had no such inclination.

Mamet was not a destitute individual living in a new country where he did not speak the language. Marina was exactly that so there is no equivalence there.

1 hour ago, James DiEugenio said:

As described in the film by myself and Peter Scott, George left for Haiti in April, had a briefing in the DC area with the the CIA and military intelligence and then had 300 K deposited into his account.  As I ask in the film: was this for Mission Accomplished?

I would love to know your source for this. There is no source for the 300k allegation at all. The "source" displayed on the screen while Scott is speaking is a newspaper article which is available:

Item 04.pdf (hood.edu)

It says nothing about any "secret meeting."

1 hour ago, James DiEugenio said:

PJM always denied she was with the CIA.  She once even threatened to sue Jerry Policoff over this.  Its a good thing she did not because as Max shows in the film, the ARRB pretty much sealed the deal on her. And he shows the documents.

Johnson McMillan was never employed by the CIA which is what your term "with" implies. She applied for a job there but was turned down. The documents you talk about show she was a "witting collaborator" which simply means she supplied them with information from time to time. Nothing more, nothing less. But you should be more careful in your wording because people see what you write and place stock in it although why they do this is beyond me.

 

[James DiEugenio]

I have Parnell deservedly on ignore.  But I had to take a look at this one since I knew he and GD would get desperate because of my post.

1. The source for the 300 K?  Douglass, p. 168

2. It was said by the CIA that Priscilla Johnson would write the stories they wanted, which is why they did not need to employ her.  That is why she  was termed a witting collaborator.  Well, she sure did in this case, did she not? She even turned up evidence about Mexico City which both shocked and angered Wesley Liebeler.  He said words to the effect: WTF, this woman reporter turns up evidence that the police, Secret Service and FBI could not?  And its eight months after? But that is what she did.  Amazing, right? Just a coincidence.

3. As for the Mamet reference, I have never met anyone, destitute or not, who I did that for.  Period.  And calling the Oswalds destitute is a trick used by the likes of McAdams.  Take a look at what rents were like back then in New Orleans and Fort Worth. Did the Oswalds have this kind of help in New Orleans?  Not as far as I can tell. This is a distraction to avoid the question:  Why would the White Russians, who wanted to bring back the czar, do so much to support this Marxist/Leninist?  And why would George Bouhe, who ran the White Russian community, go out of his way after the murder of LHO to tell Marina --he actually visited her directly--that it just happened to be a coincidence that he lived next door to her husband's killer. (Probe Vol. 7 No. 3, p. 3)

Parnell has nothing to say, so he goes back on ignore.  

 

 

Edited June 3, 2022 by James DiEugenio

[Denny Zartman]

I can't find the reference, but I remember reading that someone from Ruth's church said their church had a program to take in foreign exchange students, and Ruth did not participate in this program.

[Denny Zartman]

16 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

Why not if they were so interesting to the WC?  

It seems to me that the answer is clear: those investigations did not want to go to where that trail would have led them. And it wasn't to the Mafia, Cuba, Russia, or Texas oilmen.

[W. Tracy Parnell]

2 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

1. The source for the 300 K?  Douglass, p. 168

Wrong. It says 285K and, once again, I wish that you would try and be more accurate. Pretty soon, someone will be out there saying it is half a million. That is why many do not respect the conspiracy community, although everyone should not be criticized by the lack of specificity of a few, that is human nature.

The larger issue is your representation of the situation in the film. You say that about April of 1963 de Mohrenschildt went to Haiti where he had $300,000 deposited in his account. You go on to say (paraphrasing) that the question then becomes was this money paid to de Mohrenschildt for "escort" services before passing LHO on to Ruth Paine.

What you don't say is the original source for the Haiti money thing is de Mohrenschildt's interview with Epstein (when the former was quite unstable). I don't have The Assassination Chronicles (which Douglass cites as a source), but I pulled out my old copy of Legend. In that, de Mohrenschildt tells Epstein that the money came from a government contract with Haiti for the development of natural resources-not from a payoff by the CIA. In any case, I would doubt the figure unless there is hard evidence because, as I mentioned, George was not well by this point.

BTW, I still don't know what Scott's source for the "secret meeting" George D had with the CIA and Army Intelligence is. If anyone knows, please chime in.

As far as the Oswalds being "destitute" you can use "poor" or whatever word you want. If they weren't bad off, I don't know who was. The Russian community was interested in helping the Oswalds for the same reason anyone would be-they were a young couple who needed it. They changed their tune somewhat after they saw LHO's tricks including his abuse of Marina-firsthand in some cases. Nothing spooky there.

And you still didn't say why you wrote that PJM was "with" the CIA. If I say I am "with" Tesla, people understand that I mean I am employed by them.

[James DiEugenio]

That is a distinct possibility Denny.

BTW, i just looked at one of Robert Charles Dunne's threads on the White Russian community.

He wrote that LHO  did not like having them around, thought they were unnecessary.

This is why I have always kind of thought of them as I would the witches' coven from Rosemary's Baby. 

Isn't that interesting about Bouhe telling Marina: its just a coincidence I was a neighbor to the guy who killed your husband. 

[Joe Bauer]

On 6/3/2022 at 2:39 PM, Denny Zartman said:

I can't find the reference, but I remember reading that someone from Ruth's church said their church had a program to take in foreign exchange students, and Ruth did not participate in this program.

Denny, I think Marina knocked Ruth's socks off the moment she met her.

It was smitten at first site.

Having Marina live with her would fill many of Ruth's personal needs, interests and desires much more than some random foreign exchange student.

Marina was special.

Most everyone was intrigued by Marina's real Russian upbringing, her willingness to leave Russia and live here and her very real brilliant blue-eyed attractiveness.

I was smitten with Marina myself after seeing her in that nationally televised "Marina, what do you do all day" interview just weeks after 11,22,1963.

 

 

 

Edited June 8, 2022 by Joe Bauer

[James DiEugenio]

You are missing the point Joe.

Marina already had a family.  

What the kindly Quaker woman was doing was separating Marina from her husband.

We know what happened as a result.

The Paine garage became the haven for the evidence incriminating Oswald.  And even when the official searches were over, Ruth kept on finding stuff.

[Denny Zartman]

Forgive me, @Joe Bauer, you're one of my favorite people in the forum. I always enjoy reading your posts, but I must respectfully disagree with you on this particular issue.

In your earlier post you wrote:

On 6/3/2022 at 10:02 AM, Joe Bauer said:

I know a little about the Quakers. Love their active involvement humanitarianism and non-violent commitment to peace.

I am not convinced that Ruth wasn't sincere in her involvement with others and her motivations in helping them.

And you go on to describe her alleged altruistic Quaker nature. But then you follow that with your next post where you write:

12 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

Having Marina live with her would fill many of Ruth's personal needs, interests and desires much more than some random foreign exchange student.

Which suggests she was motivated primarily or solely by what she would personally get out of helping Marina and not because of the satisfaction gained from a doing a truly selfless act of charity. That's not sincere, that's selfish.

if the foreign exchange student story is true, then she was either defying or ignoring what was specifically being encouraged by her church and practiced by her fellow Quakers. In my opinion this would further undercut any claims of her sincerity because of her specific religion. It seems Ruth had an interest in other cultures as evidenced by her knowledge of the Russian language. Why then would a foreign exchange student not satisfy her interest? And I sincerely doubt that Quaker teachings encourage Quakers to help individuals in order to satisfy their own carnal desires. When you and your wife so generously took in a young mother, I hope neither of you did so because of what either of you wanted to gain out of it, but because she was a human being in need of help.

I believe Ruth's involvement with the Oswald family did not happen by chance and was not primarily or even secondarily driven by what the young people refer to as a "girl crush." Ruth needed to be in Lee's life to such a level where it gets Lee in Dallas, anchors him there, and where it would not be suspicious if Ruth "helped" Lee get a job downtown at what just happened to be the pre-selected kill zone. I personally believe the "crush" story is overblown, exaggerated to discourage further speculation about Ruth's motives. I think the Paine's involvement with the Oswald's was primarily as a result of needing to place the patsy at the specific location and secondarily to have a convenient source of incriminating physical evidence few would question. After all, she's just a nice Quaker lady.

 

[W. Tracy Parnell]

8 minutes ago, Denny Zartman said:

Which suggests she was motivated primarily or solely by what she would personally get out of helping Marina and not because of the satisfaction gained from a doing a truly selfless act of charity. That's not sincere, that's selfish.

What in the world is wrong with receiving something in return for doing a good deed. There is no such thing as a "selfless" act of charity. Even an anonymous donor still has the self-satisfaction that their gift provides.

[James DiEugenio]

The amazing thing about the Paines is they were the gift that kept on giving.

For days, weeks, months, years, decades, generations.

When Gus Russo needed them, they were there.

 

[Paul Brancato]

21 hours ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

Wrong. It says 285K and, once again, I wish that you would try and be more accurate. Pretty soon, someone will be out there saying it is half a million. That is why many do not respect the conspiracy community, although everyone should not be criticized by the lack of specificity of a few, that is human nature.

The larger issue is your representation of the situation in the film. You say that about April of 1963 de Mohrenschildt went to Haiti where he had $300,000 deposited in his account. You go on to say (paraphrasing) that the question then becomes was this money paid to de Mohrenschildt for "escort" services before passing LHO on to Ruth Paine.

What you don't say is the original source for the Haiti money thing is de Mohrenschildt's interview with Epstein (when the former was quite unstable). I don't have The Assassination Chronicles (which Douglass cites as a source), but I pulled out my old copy of Legend. In that, de Mohrenschildt tells Epstein that the money came from a government contract with Haiti for the development of natural resources-not from a payoff by the CIA. In any case, I would doubt the figure unless there is hard evidence because, as I mentioned, George was not well by this point.

BTW, I still don't know what Scott's source for the "secret meeting" George D had with the CIA and Army Intelligence is. If anyone knows, please chime in.

As far as the Oswalds being "destitute" you can use "poor" or whatever word you want. If they weren't bad off, I don't know who was. The Russian community was interested in helping the Oswalds for the same reason anyone would be-they were a young couple who needed it. They changed their tune somewhat after they saw LHO's tricks including his abuse of Marina-firsthand in some cases. Nothing spooky there.

And you still didn't say why you wrote that PJM was "with" the CIA. If I say I am "with" Tesla, people understand that I mean I am employed by them.

Have you read Our Man in Haiti? The circumstances of DeM’s meeting in NYC and DC are purported by him to be about a possible coup, installing Clemard Charles, his Haitian banker friend and companion for at least one of those meetings, in place of Duvalier, and a business arrangement for a sisal plantation in Haiti. If you haven’t already, take a look at who was at these meetings. Jim’s observation makes a lot more sense than DeM’s explanation. $285K vs $300K - how much money is that in today’s dollars, + or - 10%? Why should the CIA and their MI liaison care about a sisal plantation? Why would DeM care about a Haitian coup? This story begs for more light, yet the identity of the two deep cover CIA people - WUBRINY-1 and -2 - at the NYC meetings was hidden from investigators. I believe they were finally identified. One was a close associate of George Bush btw - Thomas Devine. 

Edited June 4, 2022 by Paul Brancato