Lee Oswald - The Cop-Killer

[Bill Brown]

Helen Markham was on foot, walking south along Patton toward her bus stop, which
was on Jefferson Boulevard.  Markham was just reaching the northwest corner of
Tenth and Patton when she noticed Tippit's patrol car pass through the
intersection, heading east along Tenth Street.  Markham testified that the
patrol car pulled up to a man who was walking on the sidewalk on the south side
of Tenth Street.  Helen Markham positively identified Lee Oswald as the man she
saw talking to, and shoot, J.D. Tippit.  She testified that she saw Oswald run
from the scene, heading down Patton with a gun in his hand.
 
William Scoggins was sitting in his cab at the southeast corner of Tenth and
Patton.  Scoggins saw Tippit's patrol car pass slowly in front of his cab,
driving west to east along Tenth Street (Scoggins' cab was sitting on Patton,
facing north towards Tenth street).  Scoggins noticed that the patrol car pulled
up alongside a man who was walking on the sidewalk on the south side of Tenth
Street.  William Scoggins positively identified Lee Oswald as the man he saw
running towards his cab seconds after hearing gun shots.  Scoggins got out of
his cab with thoughts of running from the scene as Oswald headed straight
towards him after the shots rang out.  After realizing he had nowhere to hide,
Scoggins returned to his cab and ducked down behind it as he watched Oswald turn
the corner and head down Patton towards Jefferson.  Scoggins testified that
Oswald had a gun in his hand.
 
Barbara Davis was lying in bed inside her residence, which was the house at the
corner of Tenth and Patton.  She heard gunshots outside and went to the door.
She opened the screen door and noticed Helen
Markham across the street, screaming.  Davis then noticed a man cutting through
her front yard, holding a gun in his hands.  She testified that the man had the
gun cocked in his hands as if he were emptying it.  Barbara Davis positively
identified Lee Oswald as the man who she saw cut across her yard with a gun in
his hands.
 
Virginia Davis was in the living room of the same residence (400 E. Tenth
St.) when she heard gunshots outside.  Virginia Davis went to the door
and, like Barbara, noticed Helen Markham across the street, screaming.  Davis
then noticed a man cutting across the front yard with a gun in his hands.  She
testified that the man was emptying shells out of the gun.  Virginia Davis
positively identified Lee Oswald as the man who she saw cut across the front
yard with a gun in his hands.
 
Ted Callaway was standing out on the front porch of the used-car lot office,
where he worked.  Callaway testified that he heard five pistol shots.  Callaway
testified that he believed the shots came from the vicinity of Tenth Street,
which was behind the office he worked in.  He went out to the sidewalk on the
east side of Patton and noticed Scoggins' cab parked up near the corner of
Patton at Tenth.  As Callaway watched the cab driver (Scoggins) hide beside his
cab, he noticed a man running across Patton from the east side of Patton to the
west side.  Callaway watched the man run down Patton towards Jefferson.  Ted
Callaway positively identified Lee Oswald as the man he saw run down Patton with
a gun in his hands.
 
Sam Guinyard worked at the same used-car lot as Ted Callaway.  Guinyard was out
on the lot washing one of the cars when he heard gunshots come from the
direction up toward Tenth Street.  From the car lot, Guinyard was looking north
toward Tenth in an attempt to see where the shots came from when he saw a man on
the sidewalk in between the first two houses on Tenth Street (400 E. Tenth and
404 E. Tenth).  Guinyard went toward the sidewalk on the east side of Patton and
saw the man cut across the yard of the house on the corner (400 E. Tenth, the
Davis residence) and proceeded to run south on Patton.  Guinyard said the man
had a gun in his hands and was emptying it of shells.  Sam Guinyard positively
identified Lee Oswald as the man he saw running with the gun in his hands.

Each of the above witnesses saw a man flee the vicinity of the Tippit murder.  Each of the above witnesses saw a gun in the man's hands.  Every single one of the above witnesses positively identified Lee Oswald as that man.

Edited July 9, 2022 by Bill Brown

[Tom Gram]

Markham is, well, just not credible; but for the other witness, would you agree that the credibility of their positive identifications is contingent on the conduct of the lineups conducted by the DPD? Do you believe that the lineups were conducted fairly? I'd recommend reading the following post by Gil Jesus:

 

 

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, Bill Brown said:

Helen Markham

 

If anyone wants a good laugh, read Helen Markham's WC testimony.

 

[Bill Brown]

2 hours ago, Tom Gram said:

Markham is, well, just not credible; but for the other witness, would you agree that the credibility of their positive identifications is contingent on the conduct of the lineups conducted by the DPD? Do you believe that the lineups were conducted fairly? I'd recommend reading the following post by Gil Jesus:

 

 

The witnesses were asked if the man they saw running with a gun in his hands was among those men in the lineup and if so, which one was he.

 

The witnesses were NOT asked which of the men in the lineup most resembled the man they saw running with a gun in his hands, i.e. if the man they saw with a gun was not among those in the lineup, then they would have picked none of the men.

 

Unfair, unbiased lineups (if they were) will not change the fact that the witnesses picked the man they saw, not the man who most resembled the man they saw.

 

 

[Tom Gram]

11 minutes ago, Bill Brown said:

The witnesses were asked if the man they saw running with a gun in his hands was among those men in the lineup and if so, which one was he.

 

The witnesses were NOT asked which of the men in the lineup most resembled the man they saw running with a gun in his hands, i.e. if the man they saw with a gun was not among those in the lineup, then they would have picked none of the men.

 

Unfair, unbiased lineups (if they were) will not change the fact that the witnesses picked the man they saw, not the man who most resembled the man they saw.

 

 

Did you read Gil’s post? The lineups were most definitely not anything remotely approaching fair. Even Burt Griffin of the WC later came to the same conclusion. Also, from Gil’s post: 

Dr. Gary Wells, an Iowa State University psychologist who has researched identifications by witnesses since the mid-1970s describes what a witness sees in a lineup. He says, "The tendency is to pick the one who looks most like the person you saw. It becomes more about reasoning than memory."

"...... the reason I say that he looked like the man, because the rest of them were larger men ........The only one I could identify at all would be the smaller man on account he was the only one who could come near fitting the description." ---- Cecil McWatters ( 2 H 281 )

When Howard Brennan viewed the second lineup on November 22nd, he chose Oswald as the one who "most resembled" the man he saw. ( 3 H 154-155 )

This phenomena of choosing the one who "looks like" rather than one who "is" is supported by research published in 1998 by a Wells-led team. In that research, subjects were shown a grainy film of a staged crime, then handed six photos. They weren't told whether the "criminal" they had seen was in the group of pictures.

He wasn't, but nearly all of the subjects chose a picture anyway.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2002-11-25-police-lineups-cover-usat_x.htm

[Bill Brown]

26 minutes ago, Tom Gram said:

Did you read Gil’s post? The lineups were most definitely not anything remotely approaching fair. Even Burt Griffin of the WC later came to the same conclusion. Also, from Gil’s post: 

Dr. Gary Wells, an Iowa State University psychologist who has researched identifications by witnesses since the mid-1970s describes what a witness sees in a lineup. He says, "The tendency is to pick the one who looks most like the person you saw. It becomes more about reasoning than memory."

"...... the reason I say that he looked like the man, because the rest of them were larger men ........The only one I could identify at all would be the smaller man on account he was the only one who could come near fitting the description." ---- Cecil McWatters ( 2 H 281 )

When Howard Brennan viewed the second lineup on November 22nd, he chose Oswald as the one who "most resembled" the man he saw. ( 3 H 154-155 )

This phenomena of choosing the one who "looks like" rather than one who "is" is supported by research published in 1998 by a Wells-led team. In that research, subjects were shown a grainy film of a staged crime, then handed six photos. They weren't told whether the "criminal" they had seen was in the group of pictures.

He wasn't, but nearly all of the subjects chose a picture anyway.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2002-11-25-police-lineups-cover-usat_x.htm

The witnesses were told that the man they saw may not be any of the men in the lineup.

 

[Joe Bauer]

Was Oswald disheveled looking more so than his fellow lineup members?

Maybe with unkempt hair and sporting a swollen left eye in these lineups as if he had been in a scuffle?

Joseph McBride says Oswald did not kill Tippet.

Whether he did or not, it's true that Helen Markham was a very unstable witness.

One that prosecutors in an Oswald trial would do anything to keep from cross examination.

The woman was either extremely traumatized by witnessing the shooting  or already so before hand. Completely paranoid about everything. Her statements were so convoluted and contradictory, it is hard to stick with them in reading.

I'm on the fence here.

 

 

Edited July 10, 2022 by Joe Bauer

[Pete Mellor]

24 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:

I'm on the fence here.

Hey get off Joe, it belongs to me!

Was Oswald guilty?  What, "beyond a reasonable doubt".  Ignoring the official time of 1:16, which a defence council would challenge.  Helen Markham describes the shooter as short, on the heavy side and with bushy hair.  Aquilla Clemons saw two people involved, one being short and heavy, agreeing with Markham.  Clemons was visited later by a man who told her to keep quiet!  Warren Reynold's did not witness the shooting, but saw the supposed fleeing gunman, he did not i.d. this man as Oswald, until after he was almost killed by a gunman himself.  Frank Wright, who lived across the street stated the killer of Tippit wore a long coat and drove off in a grey car.

Sadly, history was denied a trial of the accused so I do not know exactly where Oswald was between 1300, leaving the rooming house on Beckley then seen standing by a bus stop outside and his later arrest at the Texas theatre.  I am also doubtful of the automatic/revolver ballistic evidence and the fantastic story behind the discovery of the Oswald/Hidell wallet, found at the scene of the Tippit killing.  Strangely, no witness saw this item at the scene!  So, who discovered it, Cpt. Westbrook at 10th & Patton or Detective Paul Bentley after Oswald's arrest?  Also, as written in a recent post on this Forum, who do the fingerprints on the front passenger side of Tippit's car belong to? 

[Bill Brown]

2 hours ago, Pete Mellor said:

Hey get off Joe, it belongs to me!

Was Oswald guilty?  What, "beyond a reasonable doubt".  Ignoring the official time of 1:16, which a defence council would challenge.  Helen Markham describes the shooter as short, on the heavy side and with bushy hair.  Aquilla Clemons saw two people involved, one being short and heavy, agreeing with Markham.  Clemons was visited later by a man who told her to keep quiet!  Warren Reynold's did not witness the shooting, but saw the supposed fleeing gunman, he did not i.d. this man as Oswald, until after he was almost killed by a gunman himself.  Frank Wright, who lived across the street stated the killer of Tippit wore a long coat and drove off in a grey car.

Sadly, history was denied a trial of the accused so I do not know exactly where Oswald was between 1300, leaving the rooming house on Beckley then seen standing by a bus stop outside and his later arrest at the Texas theatre.  I am also doubtful of the automatic/revolver ballistic evidence and the fantastic story behind the discovery of the Oswald/Hidell wallet, found at the scene of the Tippit killing.  Strangely, no witness saw this item at the scene!  So, who discovered it, Cpt. Westbrook at 10th & Patton or Detective Paul Bentley after Oswald's arrest?  Also, as written in a recent post on this Forum, who do the fingerprints on the front passenger side of Tippit's car belong to? 

"Ignoring the official time of 1:16, which a defence council would challenge."

 

The police tapes (along with the actions of witnesses like Domingo Benavides and Ted Callaway) clearly tell you that the shooting occurred just moments before 1:1.7.

 

 

"Aquilla Clemons saw two people involved, one being short and heavy..."

 

Clemons did not see the shooting.  She stated that when she first heard the shots, she originally believed them to be firecrackers.  Why give any weight to her "two people involved" when the REAL witnesses who were actually out on the street at the time of the shooting and pretty much saw the entire thing go down (Helen Markham, Domingo Benavides, Jimmy Burt, Bill Smith and William Scoggins) ALL said Tippit encountered only ONE man?

 

 

"Warren Reynold's did not witness the shooting, but saw the supposed fleeing gunman, he did not i.d. this man as Oswald, until after he was almost killed by a gunman himself."

 

Before he was shot, Reynolds told the FBI that he was "of the opinion" that the man he saw running with a gun in his hands was Lee Oswald.

 

 

"Frank Wright, who lived across the street stated the killer of Tippit wore a long coat and drove off in a grey car."

 

No Sir.  Frank Wright lived a block east and was indoors when the shooting occurred.  None of the REAL witnesses (Markham, Benavides, Burt, Smith, Scoggins) ever describe Tippit's killer driving off in any car.  ALL of these witnesses (who were actually outdoors and saw the thing go down, unlike Wright) said the killer fled on foot.

 

 

"I am also doubtful of the automatic/revolver ballistic evidence..."

 

The ballistic evidence tells you that Tippit was killed by .38 special bullets fired from a revolver.  The killer was not firing an automatic weapon.  Gerald Hill reported over the police radio that the killer was apparently armed  with an automatic weapon because he knew shells had been found at the scene.  However, Hill was unaware at this early stage that witnesses saw the gunman manually eject the shell casings.

 

Ask yourself, if the killer was using an automatic weapon, why weren't the shell casings found very near the patrol car (where the killer was standing as he fired the shots that killed Tippit) instead of over one hundred feet to the west toward the corner?

 

 

"Also, as written in a recent post on this Forum, who do the fingerprints on the front passenger side of Tippit's car belong to?"

 

Pete Barnes (of the crime lab) found partial prints near the passenger door and window but they weren't discernible.

[Ron Bulman]

Into the Nightmare: My Search for the Killers of President John F. Kennedy and Officer J. D. Tippit: McBride, Joseph: 9781939795250: Amazon.com: Books

Who have you interviewed?    

See also the threads on Three Wallets and Two Oswald's in the Texas Theater.

[Joseph McBride]

From Helen Markham's testimony before the Warren Commission:

. . . Mr. [Joseph A.] BALL [assistant counsel]. Did anybody tell you that the man you were looking for would

be in a certain position in the lineup, or anything like that?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now when you went into the room you looked these people over, these four men?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you recognize anyone in the lineup?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. You did not? Did you see anybody -- I

have asked you that question before -- did you recognize anybody from their face?

Mrs. MARKHAM. From their face, no.
Mr. BALL. Did you identify anybody in these four people?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I didn't know nobody.
Mr. BALL. I know you didn’t know anybody, but did anybody in that lineup

look like anybody you had seen before?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No. I had never seen none of them, none of these men.

Mr. BALL. No one of the four?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No one of them.
Mr. BALL. No one of all four?
Mrs. MABKHAM. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Was there a number two man in there?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Number two is the one I picked.

Mr. BALL. Well, I thought you just told me that you hadn't --

Mrs. MARKHAM. I thought you wanted me to describe their clothing.

Mr. BALL: No. I wanted to know if that day when you were in

there if you saw anybody in there --

Mrs. MARKHAM. Number two.
Mr. BALL. What did you say when you saw number two?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, let me tell you. I said the second man, and they kept

asking me which one, which one. I said, number two. When I said number two, I just got weak.

Mr. BALL. What about number two, what did you mean when you said number two?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Number two was the man I saw shoot the policeman.
Mr. BALL. You recognized him from his appearance?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I asked -- I looked at him. When I saw this man I wasn’t

sure, but I had cold chills just run all over me.
Mr. BALL. When you saw him?
Mrs. MARKHAM. When I saw the man. But I wasn’t sure, so, you see, I

told them I wanted to be sure, and looked,at his face is what I was looking at, mostly is what I looked at, on account of his eyes, the way he looked at me. So I asked them if they would turn him sideways. They did, and then they turned him back around, and I said the second, and they said, which one, and I said number two. So when I said that, well, I just kind of fell over. Everybody in there, you know, was beginning to talk, and I don’t know, just -- . . .

 

Edited July 11, 2022 by Joseph McBride

[Joe Bauer]

I know the Tippit story is a deadly serious and sad one, but honestly ... I can't help but laugh at poor Mrs. Markham's "whose on 1st" responses to Ball's questions.

Number 1? No. Number 2? Yes. No number one? No. Whose number 2? No, he's number 1! I thought you said he was number 2! Who was number 1? There is no number 1. Which one is number 2? When you say number 2 do you mean number 1? No, I mean he's number 2! So, number 1 is really number 2? No, number 2 is number 2

Markham "When I saw the man I wasn't sure."

"I thought you wanted to know about the clothing!"

"When I said that I just kind of fell over."

I'm sure even the transcriber was confused! 

That is all Mrs. Markham...you are free to go now.

 

Edited July 11, 2022 by Joe Bauer

[Ron Bulman]

While considered by some as nutty as a Corsicana Fruitcake,

Collin Street Bakery | Collin Street Bakery ...

She was also badgered.  By the DPD and the Warren Omission.  She was a scared Black woman from Dallas in 1963.

 

Edited July 11, 2022 by Ron Bulman

[Allen Lowe]

Truthfully the whole thing is ridiculous. As with the JFK assassination, Oswald had no motive and no reason to shoot Tippit.  He had no history of violence. Not to mention the whole wallet fiasco. In my opinion the reason Tippit got shot was to pull everyone out of Dealey plaza and allow the actual assassins to  get away and/or dispose of evidence on the scene, from a depository that was not sealed. Remember what Lavelle said? To them the JFK shooting was as insignificant as the murder of a black man (he used much worse language) but the killing of a cop was something else again. And we haven’t even begun to discuss Tippit’s strange movements in the immediate aftermath of the assassination.

[Richard Price]

28 minutes ago, Allen Lowe said:

In my opinion the reason Tippit got shot was to pull everyone out of Dealey plaza and allow the actual assassins to  get away and/or dispose of evidence on the scene, from a depository that was not sealed.

Thank you Allen.  In all my years reading and studying the JFKA, for some reason, this concept never entered my thought process.  Always good to find new thoughts about old events.