Where did LHO learn to speak Russian (with a Polish accent)?

[Gerry Down]

The theory laid out by Mr. Lifton could well be correct and help fill in another puzzle in the life of Oswald. However it should also be noted that Oswald was said to listen to Russian records while in the Marines. I wonder if he listened to these records after doing so poor in the Feb 1959 Russian test. Such records could potentially explain his sudden improvement over the next few months and there is also the possibility of him picking up an accent from those records. 

[W. Niederhut]

Very interesting discussion here.

A related question, aside from Oswald's Polish accent is, "Where did Oswald acquire sufficient Russian fluency and literary sensibility to read lengthy, sophisticated Russian novels by Tolstoy, Dostoevsky, Turgenev, et.al.?"

Is there a more comprehensive, scholarly review of the data on this subject than the one written by James Norwood?

Oswald’s Proficiency in the Russian Language

Oswald's Russian Language Proficiency (harveyandlee.net)

[Steve Thomas]

Did anyone comment on Oswald's Polish accent before he went to Russia?

A wile back, I tried to do a compilation of the "By-the Baltic" references I came across.

https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/oswald_m1.htm

WC testimony February 3, 1964

Mr. RANKIN. Did you know that Lee Oswald was an American when you first met him?
Mrs. OSWALD. I found that out at the end of that party, towards the end of that party, when I was first introduced to him, I didn't know that.

 

https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/m_j_russ/hscamar1.htm

HSCA testimony 1977?

Mrs. PORTER. No, I didn't. When he asked to dance, we just talked very little.
Mr. McDONALD. Did he tell you he was an American?
Mrs. PORTER. No, not at that--not during the dancing, no.
Mr. McDONALD. At this time you were speaking in Russian together?
Mrs. PORTER. Yes. He spoke with accent so I assumed he was maybe from another state, which is customary in Russia. People from other states do speak with accents because they do not speak Russian. They speak different languages.
Mr. McDONALD. So when you say another state, you mean another Russian state?
Mrs. PORTER. Yes, like Estonia, Lithuania, something like that.
Mr. McDONALD. Did you suspect at all that he was an American?
Mrs. PORTER. No, not at all.

 

https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/demohr_g.htm

Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right, it is spelled this way. That is a Swedish way of spelling. And the letter "o" with two dots over it is a typical Swedish letter which cannot be translated or written down in any language. So in probably moving to Russia, or to the Baltic States, you see, which was an intermediary area between Russia and Sweden, they probably changed it to S-c-h-i- l-d-t. And it can also be written in Russian, at the same time.

Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes--because I am more or less of a French orientation. And when I became an American citizen, I did not like the prefix "Von" which is German to the average person. And so we used "De" which is equally used in Sweden or in the Baltic States, interchangeably.

 

Mr. JENNER. Sometimes people refer to you as Baron De Mohrenschildt.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Would you explain that?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't refer to myself as that, you know. But supposedly the family has the right to it, because we are members of the Baltic nobility.
Mr. JENNER. Through what source?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Through the Swedish source, from the time of Queen Christina

 

Mr. JENNER. What was your impression of his command of Russian?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, he spoke fluent Russian, but with a foreign accent, and made mistakes, grammatical mistakes, but had remarkable fluency in Russian.
Mr. JENNER. It was remarkable?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Remarkable--for a fellow of his background and education, it is remarkable how fast he learned it. But he loved the language. He loved to speak it. He preferred to speak Russian than English any time. He always would switch from English to Russian.

 

https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/bouhe.htm

Mr. BOUHE - I never discussed a membership in any organization or hunting club. But I now remember that when I asked him after the week's work is done, what do you do--"Well, the boys and I go and hunt duck."
And he said, "ducklings". The reason why I remember it is because he didn't say "duck," but he said in Russian the equivalent of "duckys-duckys".
Mr. LIEBELER - He used the Russian word that was not the precise word to describe duck?
Mr. BOUHE - Yes; but a man going shooting would not use it. He spoke in Russian and did not try to get the Russian word exactly.

 

Mr. LIEBELER - Did you speak to Oswald in the Russian language from time to time?
Mr. BOUHE - Yes; I did.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you form an impression as to his command of that language?
Mr. BOUHE - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - What was that impression?
Mr. BOUHE - A very strange assortment of words. Grammatically not perfect, but an apparent ease to express himself in that language.

 

Mr. LIEBELER - Did Oswald's command of the Russian language seem to be about what you would expect from him, having been in Russia for that period of time? Would you say it was good?
Mr. BOUHE - I would say very good.
Mr. LIEBELER - You think he had a good command of the language, considering the amount of time he had spent in Russia?
Mr. BOUHE - Sir, for everyday conversations, yes. But I think that if I would have asked him to write, I would think he would have difficulty.

 

https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/raigorod.htm

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, from what I understand, George De Mohrenschildt comes from what we call by-the-Baltic Germans.
Mr. JENNER. What is--by-the-Baltic Germans?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. The by-the-Baltic Germans are Germans that lived by the Baltic Sea and they were Russians or rather, Russiafied Germans and they were in the service of the Czar for generations and generations and were considered Russians. Most of them were barons, you know, and I don't know whether George's family were or not, but the "de" Mohrenschildt signifies that his family had a title.
Mr. JENNER. That's the "de"?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. The "de"---yes; it signifies that.

 

https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/gregoryp.htm

 

Peter Paul Gregory, a native of Chita, Siberia, told the Warren Commission that “I thought that Lee Oswald spoke [Russian] with a Polish accent, that is why I asked him if he was of Polish descent….It would be rather unusual…for a person who lived in the Soviet Union for 17 months that he would speak so well that a native Russian would not be sure whether he was born in that country or not.”

Etymology

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_states

The term "Baltic" stems from the name of the Baltic Sea – a hydronym dating back to the 11th century (Adam of Bremen mentioned Latin: Mare Balticum) and earlier. Although there are several theories about its origin, most ultimately trace it to Indo-European root *bhel[4] meaning white, fair. This meaning is retained in modern Baltic languages, where baltas (in Lithuanian) and balts (in Latvian) mean "white".[5] However the modern names of the region and the sea, that originate from this root, were not used in either of the two languages prior to the 19th century.[6]

Since the Middle Ages, the Baltic Sea has appeared on maps in Germanic languages as the equivalent of "East Sea": German: Ostsee, Danish: Østersøen, Dutch: Oostzee, Swedish: Östersjön, etc. Indeed, the Baltic Sea mostly lies to the east of Germany, Denmark, Norway, and Sweden. The term was historically also used to refer to Baltic Dominions of the Swedish Empire (Swedish: Östersjöprovinserna) and, subsequently, the Baltic governorates of the Russian Empire (Russian: Остзейские губернии, romanized: Ostzejskie gubernii).[6] The terms related to modern name "Baltic" appear in ancient texts, but had fallen in disuse until reappearing as the adjective "Baltisch" in German, from which it was adopted in other languages.[7] During the 19th century, "Baltic" started to supersede "Ostsee" as the name for the region. Officially, its Russian equivalent "Прибалтийский" ("Pribaltiyskiy") was first used in 1859.[6] This change was a result of the Baltic German elite adopting terms derived from the stem "Baltic" to refer to themselves.[7][8]

The term "Baltic states" was, until the early 20th century, used in the context of countries neighboring the Baltic Sea: Sweden and Denmark, sometimes also Germany and the Russian Empire. With the advent of Foreningen Norden (the Nordic Associations), the term was no longer used for Sweden and Denmark.[9][10] After World War I, the new sovereign states that emerged on the east coast of the Baltic Sea – Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and during the Interwar period, Finland – became known as the "Baltic states".[7]

 

Posted in the Education Forum by Jack White April 2, 2010

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/15686-did-harvey-return-from-russia/page/3/

 

“I am still doing comparisons of the Russian LHO with the Dallas LHO. Some depict the same person, some do not. The point is...we do not really know what the variety of LHOs in Russia represents...a substitute or doctored photos, or both. But the photos show something suspicious was going on. This leaves us to wonder...did the fake defector Harvey return to the US, or was a Russian impostor substituted for the US impostor?

Jack”

Steve Thomas

 

 

 

 

 

[Ron Ege]

David Lifton - " . . .LHO did not attend DLI, . . .:

Agree.

There is no evidence placing LHO there for, probably what, six months?  I worked alongside of DIL graduates, and that was about average.

And why would the intelligence agency (ONI, CIA?) grooming/training Oswald as a false defector want him to have an official paper trail of learning the language?  Seems that would be a mighty big red flag for the Russians, adding to their already understandable suspicions of him.

LHO's times "in the brig" would present the mentioned training opportunities, as well as the alleged short hospitalization for the "UTI/Clap".  The "official reason" for the latter, IMHO, is fatuous, at best.

Having spent two USAF tours in the Far East, Okinawa, '62-"63 and Viet Nam, "66-'67, troops afflicted with either one, did NOT spend a week in bed rest.  Upon reporting to the dispensary for treatment, they were diagnosed, given antibiotics, and were directed to report back to duty.  Routinely, their medical records were annotated, "in line of duty".

Whether or not Oswald's tutor was the woman of Polish background (I'm inclined to go with David's "reveal") and/or another person or persons unknown, would it be out of the question for an intelligence agency to covertly recruit/pay said tutor(s)?  How better to avert a paper trail.

If memory serves, there has been much written as to how LHO could've saved enough of his USMC pay to have paid for his trip overseas.  If he was being paid extra for his language ability, might that not have helped? 

[James Norwood]

49 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

A related question, aside from Oswald's Polish accent is, "Where did Oswald acquire sufficient Russian fluency and literary sensibility to read lengthy, sophisticated Russian novels by Tolstoy, Dostoevsky, Turgenev, et.al.?"

Hello, Dr. Niederhut,

I believe the question you raise above is at the heart of the matter in assessing Oswald’s Russian language abilities.  While I appreciated Mr. Lifton’s insights into this topic, I do not find it persuasive that Oswald could have achieved such mastery of the Russian language from tutorials during the year 1958-59.

Russian language, literature, and culture, as well as Marxist ideology, were preoccupations of Oswald from a very early age.  As early as 1953, Oswald was reading communist literature, which he discussed with a friend in Stanley, North Dakota.  In October, 1957, Oswald attended a performance of Mussorgsky’s opera Boris Godunov in New Orleans.  The production was given in Russian with no subtitles.  In 1958, Oswald discussed with a friend the publication of Boris Pasternak’s novel Dr. Zhivago in a new English translation.  At this time, he had in his possession copies of Marx’s The Communist Manifesto and Das Kapital.  In his final year in the Marines, he not only impressed Rosaleen Quinn, the aunt of a Marine buddy, with his Russian-language skills; he was also reading Russian-language newspapers at the time.  There is no indication that he was studying Russian because he was already fully competent in reading and speaking skills, as well as one of the most challenging components of an extremely difficult language:  idiomatic Russian.  Additionally, he was known to have read in the original Russian such authors as Tolstoy, Turgenev, and Dostoevsky, and he even preferred to speak in Russian, as opposed to English.  The main points above are documented in the endnotes of my essay which you have referenced above.

Regarding David’s main point of interest in how Oswald may have spoken Russian with a Polish accent, this may be explained by carefully placing the life of this young man in the context of the Cold War.  Immediately after World War II, there was the forced relocation of enormous populations as the map was being redrawn in Eastern Europe.  Thousands of “displaced persons” were interred in camps.  The so-called Displaced Persons Commission made available to the CIA the names of potential assets.  As a result, Eastern European refugees were brought to the United States under a program headed by Frank Wisner, the CIA’s director of clandestine operations.  Wisner had become the State Department’s and the CIA’s expert on Eastern European war refugees during the late 1940s and early 1950s.  Under Wisner’s program, the refugees were granted asylum in return for their cooperation in secret operations against the Soviets. 

Wisner gained approval from the National Security Council for the “systematic” use of the refugees as set forth in a top-secret intelligence directive, NSCID No. 14 (March 3, 1950).  Both the FBI and the CIA were authorized to jointly exploit the knowledge, experience, and talents of over 200,000 Eastern European refugees who had resettled in the United States.  Under Wisner, the CIA was running hundreds of covert projects.  While the evidence is only sketchy, it appears that one of those projects merged the identities of a Russian-speaking immigrant boy, who likely came from Eastern Europe, with an American-born boy named Lee Harvey Oswald. 

Many of the Eastern European children grew up bilingual with Russian as a second language.  As observed by journalist Anne Appelbaum in her book Iron Curtain:  The Crushing of Eastern Europe, 1944-1956, Eastern European children would as a matter of course be sent to live with another family at an early age in order to learn a second language, especially Russian.

The idea behind this project was to groom the Russian-speaking boy as a spy who, when he reached adulthood, would “defect” to the Soviet Union.  Because he had assumed the name and identity of an American boy, the Soviets would not suspect that he spoke fluent Russian.  The result was that ten years later, as an undercover agent who secretly understood Russian, the Eastern European immigrant posing as a disgruntled United States Marine, defected and spent two-and-a-half years in the Soviet Union.  While there, he married a Soviet woman and returned to the United States with his wife and child.

This young refugee had been part of a long-term project of the CIA, which was part and parcel of the strategies of both the CIA and the KGB.  A modest, long-term endeavor of the CIA was the so-called Oswald Project, and it was essentially a successful operation in deceiving the Soviets.  Such a project may seem far-fetched to us today.  But in the context of the postwar years in the United States, it was not unusual given the secrecy and lack of accountability that offered unlimited potential for projects exactly like this one.  It is especially important to read the Warren Commission testimony of Dennis Offstein, a co-worker of Oswald at Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall in Dallas.  Offstein studied at the army's famed Monterey institute of languages mentioned by David above.  Offstein could not comprehend how Oswald could run circles around him in Russian language skills and he asked him for tutorials.  He also mentioned to the Warren Commission that in their talks Oswald described to him in great detail Soviet military installations.  Offstein pressed Oswald on where he learned Russian.  If the source was a set of tutorials from a Polish woman, Oswald would have almost certainly disclosed it.  Instead, Oswald revealed nothing about his background to his co-worker.  Offstein urged the Commission to investigate Oswald's ties to intelligence, yet thanks to Allen Dulles, that never happened because it would have exposed that Oswald was not a communist sympathizer but an American asset being framed for the murder of President Kennedy.

To sum up:  Oswald likely spoke with a Polish accent or that of another Eastern European dialect because he was raised there as a child where he learned Russian at an early age prior to being displaced during or immediately after the war.

[Bill Fite]

24 minutes ago, James Norwood said:

To sum up:  Oswald likely spoke with a Polish accent or that of another Eastern European dialect because he was raised there as a child where he learned Russian at an early age prior to being displaced during or immediately after the war.

Based on my own experiences with a second language and one significantly easier than Russian... I think this is the most likely explanation.

[Tony Krome]

2 hours ago, James Norwood said:

While the evidence is only sketchy

Sketchy

1. not thorough or detailed.

2. Informal: dishonest or not reliable.

[David Lifton]

11 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

David Lifton thank you for this information regarding your find of the Polish-American woman in Santa Ana who tutored GIs in Russian near Santa Ana at a time when Oswald was there. It is convincing to me as a plausible solution that accounts for all the facts. 

In the article of Greg Parker linked to by Larry, Parker makes the point that Oswald's (supposed) lack of proficiency in Russian upon arrival in the Soviet Union was pretense, so as not to let the Soviets know he had proficiency which would raise suspicion that he had prior training. Oswald's having actual proficiency going into the USSR while pretending otherwise would be consistent with Oswald never going to Russian classes to learn the language while there (this noted several times in Titovets' book such as at p. 377). Any real novice to a language in a foreign country motivated to learn the language would be taking classes offered, but Oswald did not. No need to do so because he already knew Russian! (Compare parallel: Marina's lack of taking English instruction in the US even when offered, with both Marina and Lee cooperating on a pretext explanation--supposedly Lee would not let her. Marina's proficiency in English seemed to develop almost overnight following the assassination, most likely because she was already proficient in English coming in to the US, though the only ones who would know that would be Marina and Lee.)

I looked up in Ernst Titovets' book, Oswald: Russian Episode (2010), all the references in the index to Oswald and Russian language. Titovets presents Oswald as not knowing Russian upon arrival, learning after arrival, and makes references to a "foreign accent" in Oswald's Russian which was assumed by him and his friends to be simply because Lee was American.

p. 95, "speaking broken Russian with a heavy American accent..."

p. 110, "The girls immediately caught his foreign accent..."

p. 236, "He spoke Russian with a foreign accent..."

p. 245, "Oswald spoke Russian with a foreign accent..."

p. 249, "Alik [Lee] spoke Russian with a heavy foreign accent..."

However at one point Titovets quotes from Priscilla McMillan's Marina and Lee (1978) which gives a different interpretation of the accent in Russian. It occurs in the context of a romanticized (Titovets considers somewhat fictionalized) account of Marina's first introduction to Lee (quoting McMillan at p. 251 in Titovets):

"... He was wearing a gray suit, a white shirt, and a white tie of some funny foreign material. The tie and his accent told her immediately that he was not a Russian. He must be from Latvia or Estonia"

Titovets adds that according to McMillan, Marina and Lee, "Marina claims that even after having met Alik she still had no idea that he was an American. Her realization came some time later". Titovets quotes differently on that point from an interview of his own with Yuri Merezhinski, the person who introduced Lee to Marina. Yuri said Marina knew Oswald was an American at that introduction because Yuri told Marina who he was.

The argument that Oswald learned Russian from a tutor privately near his Marines base, and against his having attended courses at the language institute in Monterey, makes complete sense. And the accent of the teacher coming through in the accent of the second-language learner is well-known and I have experienced that. When I lived in Denmark most Danes knew English, all ESLs (English as a Second Language). I would occasionally encounter (and find amusing) Danes who spoke English with a thick Irish brogue accent, or an Australian or South African accent, from Danes who had never been to Ireland or Australia or South Africa, which reflected some teacher's accent (as I would confirm in talking with them). 

What David Lifton tells is important in reconstructing Oswald's language picture. It makes complete sense to me. That is where that Polish accent came from in Oswald's Russian, as in the statement of Peter Gregory (Russian translator in Dallas) quoted by Steve Thomas: "I thought that Lee Oswald spoke [Russian] with a Polish accent, that is why I asked him if he was of Polish descent". It had nothing to do with Lee being eastern European. It had to do with Lee's teacher of Russian being eastern European!

And David Lifton may have accidentally stumbled upon the identity of the Polish-American woman who taught Lee Russian, and when it happened.

Greg: I wanted to thank you so much for your detailed remarks, and outlining in detail your own reaction and commentary.  Your experience with ESL people (in Denmark)  was clearly pertinent (and valuable) in your understanding of my analysis.   I'm going to print out all of this (your commentary), and provide further comments later (today).  FYI: A few hours ago, I checked with my source ("Joe," in my writeup): The date of the conversation when I first had these insights (and learned about the Russian instructor with the Polish accent. who lived near El Toro)  was three years ago, max. Re LHO engaging in "pretense" when he arrived in Russia (fake suicide, pretense about how much Russian he understood, etc.): agreed. Its all  part of the same "package (of fakery)".    FYI: I first learned of the fake suicide "circa 1995"; (and possibly as early as 1987; because I wrote a detailed  manuscript [unpublished] about it).  By June 1959, LHO definitely understood Russian --the question is "how much?" There's more to the story, and about 10 years ago (or more), I actually spent an hour (at least) with Phil Agee (author of "Inside the Company") who was a "friend of a friend of mine", seeking to understand whether the CIA might have trained its agents in "faking a suicide." Agee heard me out, and then  looked at me as if I came from another planet; i.e., his answer was an emphatic "no."  So that behavior -- faking a suicide attempt --was an "Oswald original";  or, as I used to say, part of "Oswald Productions." (For LHO, life was theater...sort of).   Re Titovets: I first spoke with him (by telephone, on an international call) some 20 years ago; and I'm mentioned in his book.   

Another point:  IMHO. . .LHO didn't want Marina to speak English because she was his "dialogue partner"; LHO loved Russian, and knew (probably instinctively)  that if she spoke English (rather than Russian), his own proficiency in Russian would wither away.  Bottom line: Marina was the key to LHO retaining his Russian proficiency.   Again, many thanks for your observations and commentary.  You obviously "get it."  I'm concerned that too many people do not (or cannot) "get it"; so every time they encounter an inconsistency, they posit "multiple Oswalds," instead of understanding that Oswald was an excellent role player. Oversimplifying (slightly): It was (almost) always him. Always Oswald.  Thanks again.  DSL (9/18/22 - 4:30 PM PDT; 10 PM PDT)

Edited September 19, 2022 by David Lifton

[Larry Hancock]

Indeed David, Oswald was an excellent role player - and  "It was (almost) always him".   Well said!

[Ron Bulman]

7 hours ago, James Norwood said:

Hello, Dr. Niederhut,

I believe the question you raise above is at the heart of the matter in assessing Oswald’s Russian language abilities.  While I appreciated Mr. Lifton’s insights into this topic, I do not find it persuasive that Oswald could have achieved such mastery of the Russian language from tutorials during the year 1958-59.

Russian language, literature, and culture, as well as Marxist ideology, were preoccupations of Oswald from a very early age.  As early as 1953, Oswald was reading communist literature, which he discussed with a friend in Stanley, North Dakota.  In October, 1957, Oswald attended a performance of Mussorgsky’s opera Boris Godunov in New Orleans.  The production was given in Russian with no subtitles.  In 1958, Oswald discussed with a friend the publication of Boris Pasternak’s novel Dr. Zhivago in a new English translation.  At this time, he had in his possession copies of Marx’s The Communist Manifesto and Das Kapital.  In his final year in the Marines, he not only impressed Rosaleen Quinn, the aunt of a Marine buddy, with his Russian-language skills; he was also reading Russian-language newspapers at the time.  There is no indication that he was studying Russian because he was already fully competent in reading and speaking skills, as well as one of the most challenging components of an extremely difficult language:  idiomatic Russian.  Additionally, he was known to have read in the original Russian such authors as Tolstoy, Turgenev, and Dostoevsky, and he even preferred to speak in Russian, as opposed to English.  The main points above are documented in the endnotes of my essay which you have referenced above.

Regarding David’s main point of interest in how Oswald may have spoken Russian with a Polish accent, this may be explained by carefully placing the life of this young man in the context of the Cold War.  Immediately after World War II, there was the forced relocation of enormous populations as the map was being redrawn in Eastern Europe.  Thousands of “displaced persons” were interred in camps.  The so-called Displaced Persons Commission made available to the CIA the names of potential assets.  As a result, Eastern European refugees were brought to the United States under a program headed by Frank Wisner, the CIA’s director of clandestine operations.  Wisner had become the State Department’s and the CIA’s expert on Eastern European war refugees during the late 1940s and early 1950s.  Under Wisner’s program, the refugees were granted asylum in return for their cooperation in secret operations against the Soviets. 

Wisner gained approval from the National Security Council for the “systematic” use of the refugees as set forth in a top-secret intelligence directive, NSCID No. 14 (March 3, 1950).  Both the FBI and the CIA were authorized to jointly exploit the knowledge, experience, and talents of over 200,000 Eastern European refugees who had resettled in the United States.  Under Wisner, the CIA was running hundreds of covert projects.  While the evidence is only sketchy, it appears that one of those projects merged the identities of a Russian-speaking immigrant boy, who likely came from Eastern Europe, with an American-born boy named Lee Harvey Oswald. 

Many of the Eastern European children grew up bilingual with Russian as a second language.  As observed by journalist Anne Appelbaum in her book Iron Curtain:  The Crushing of Eastern Europe, 1944-1956, Eastern European children would as a matter of course be sent to live with another family at an early age in order to learn a second language, especially Russian.

The idea behind this project was to groom the Russian-speaking boy as a spy who, when he reached adulthood, would “defect” to the Soviet Union.  Because he had assumed the name and identity of an American boy, the Soviets would not suspect that he spoke fluent Russian.  The result was that ten years later, as an undercover agent who secretly understood Russian, the Eastern European immigrant posing as a disgruntled United States Marine, defected and spent two-and-a-half years in the Soviet Union.  While there, he married a Soviet woman and returned to the United States with his wife and child.

This young refugee had been part of a long-term project of the CIA, which was part and parcel of the strategies of both the CIA and the KGB.  A modest, long-term endeavor of the CIA was the so-called Oswald Project, and it was essentially a successful operation in deceiving the Soviets.  Such a project may seem far-fetched to us today.  But in the context of the postwar years in the United States, it was not unusual given the secrecy and lack of accountability that offered unlimited potential for projects exactly like this one.  It is especially important to read the Warren Commission testimony of Dennis Offstein, a co-worker of Oswald at Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall in Dallas.  Offstein studied at the army's famed Monterey institute of languages mentioned by David above.  Offstein could not comprehend how Oswald could run circles around him in Russian language skills and he asked him for tutorials.  He also mentioned to the Warren Commission that in their talks Oswald described to him in great detail Soviet military installations.  Offstein pressed Oswald on where he learned Russian.  If the source was a set of tutorials from a Polish woman, Oswald would have almost certainly disclosed it.  Instead, Oswald revealed nothing about his background to his co-worker.  Offstein urged the Commission to investigate Oswald's ties to intelligence, yet thanks to Allen Dulles, that never happened because it would have exposed that Oswald was not a communist sympathizer but an American asset being framed for the murder of President Kennedy.

To sum up:  Oswald likely spoke with a Polish accent or that of another Eastern European dialect because he was raised there as a child where he learned Russian at an early age prior to being displaced during or immediately after the war.

Thanks for your post James.  It makes more sense than anything I've read yet.  I think I may owe you an apology.  If I remember right in a post you made a few years back shortly after I joined here I may have been a little rude in my skepticism about Harvey and Lee at the time.  I'd read of Harvey and Lee speculation going back to the 1940's or even 30's and thought the CIA didn't exist then, impossible.  The time frame of kids imported in the later 40's or early 50's makes much more sense.  Dulles approving/developing such sounds quite believable. 

[Jonathan Cohen]

12 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

Sketchy

1. not thorough or detailed.

2. Informal: dishonest or not reliable.

Exactly. Everything James Norwood says after “while the evidence is only sketchy” is pure “Harvey and Lee”—addled speculation not supported by any hard evidence (not to mention the casual reference to Oswald having lived in North Dakota, which is nonsense). There never was any such as thing as “The Oswald Project.”

Edited September 19, 2022 by Jonathan Cohen

[Sandy Larsen]

I think that David Lifton's hypothesis is viable and makes a lot of sense. But I think that James Norwood's explanation makes more sense given the mountain of evidence that there were two boy LHOs.

There's another piece of information that we now know that does support the "Oswald Project" hypothesis, but I'm not sure if it supports Lifton's hypothesis. And that is as follows:

Matthias Baumann is a forum member who had had a career in testing people learning a second language. He was aware of Oswald's scores on the Russian test he took while in the Marines. I asked him at roughly what age a Russian child would be to speak at Oswald's level. He hemmed and hawed a bit because the test results are for testing an adult learning a second language, not a child learning to speak a native language. But I pretty much got out of him that Oswald's Russian ability was roughly that of a third or fourth grader (8 or 9 years old).

Matthias was impressed with Oswald's scores. IIRC he said that he thought it would have required like 300 lessons to attain that level.

Do those figure fit in with David L.'s hypothesis? Could Oswald have taken anywhere near that number of lessons.

I just found the thread Mathias posted in, if anybody is interested:

 

[David Lifton]

On 9/19/2022 at 4:15 AM, Jonathan Cohen said:

Exactly. Everything James Norwood says after “while the evidence is only sketchy” is pure “Harvey and Lee”—addled speculation not supported by any hard evidence (not to mention the casual reference to Oswald having lived in North Dakota, which is nonsense). There never was any such as thing as “The Oswald Project.”

Years ago, I thought that the Harvey and Lee business was thoroughly debunked; further, that part of that debunking process began with the ARRB obtaining LHO's tax records, going back to when (as a teen) LHO worked at Dolly Shoe Store in New Orleans. I remember when Doug Horne (who had been on the ARRB staff) presented those tax records at a Lancer conference, and encountered a lot of hostility from those who subscribed to the "two Oswald" mythology.  I'm surprised that it still survives, along with such nonsense that LHO once lived in North Dakota. No he did not, and the source of that error was a police report where  LHO talked of his having lived in New Orleans; but in the original report --which was handwritten (by N.O. P.D. Lt. Martello-- the abbreviation for New Orleans (" N.O.") was somewhat carelessly written, and appeared to be "N.D."  It is out of such "noise in the system" that --to an uncritical eye -- such circumstances were transmuted into "evidence" that Oswald once lived in North Dakota.  The result: the birth of another part of the mythology about a "second Oswald" (who, supposedly,  lived in North Dakota),  a mythology not based on credible evidence and which is subscribed to by those "true believers" who subscribe to this hypothesis.   

Years ago, I had a number of conversations with John Armstrong; and he wouldn't budge. Two Oswalds, two Marguerites. . .the whole nine yards.  IMHO: its all ersatz history, and a waste of time (and energy).  I'm sorry to see that sort of thing seep into any serious discussion of LHO's bio here on the London Education Forum.  Pursuing the issue of how Oswald learned Russian is a serious matter.  Going off on some bizarre side-trip about there having been "two Oswalds" is ersatz history. 

And by the way: to all those true believers who subscribe to the "two Oswald" business: has it ever occurred to any of those "believers" to "explain" Oswald's daughter, Rachel?  Rachel was conceived around mid-February 1963, when LHO was back in the U.S., and she's a spitting image of LHO. . .so "which Oswald" conceived her?  Does Marina --who is quite reality based-- know who she married?  And who she was intimate with?  Did the real Oswald (with the genuine Oswald DNA) show up one night and tell the doppelganger to please step aside, because he needed some time alone because he wanted to conceive a child?  The whole idea is ridiculous.   Its not serious research.  Its a lazy person's way to avoid serious historical research and to erect a "conspiracy theory." (DSL, 9/18/22, 4:15 PM PDT)

 

Edited September 20, 2022 by David Lifton
Removed derogatory phrase aimed at some members. (Not intended.)

[Ken Davies]

Does anyone here speak Russian or Polish? How did you learn it?

 A  reverse example to Mr. Lifton's comments :

My maternal grandfather was born in Poland, and immigrated to Canada as a child, with his family. His mother, my maternal great grandmother, taught  my mother how to speak Polish when she was a child.  English was my mother's primary language.

 My mother could understand Kruschev when he was on t.v., speaking at the UN in the early 1960s.  She did not speak Russian.

 In 1965 my mother' s aunt  who lived in Poland, which was under USSR control, came to Canada for a visit. She only spoke Polish. After her initial conversations she exclaimed that  my mother spoke Polish with a Russian accent. This did not  make sense.

[James Norwood]

3 hours ago, David Lifton said:

It is out of such "noise in the system" that --to an uncritical eye -- such circumstances were transmuted into "evidence" that Oswald once lived in North Dakota.  The result: the birth of another part of the mythology about a "second Oswald" (who, supposedly,  lived in North Dakota),  a mythology not based on credible evidence and which is subscribed to by those "true believers" who subscribe to this hypothesis. 

There is abundant credible evidence demonstrating that Oswald resided in North Dakota in the summer of 1953.  Mrs. Alma Cole, a former resident of Stanley, North Dakota, wrote a letter to President Johnson dated December 11, 1963.  In that letter, Mrs. Cole recalled that her son played with young Oswald who “read communist books then.”  She also helpfully identified other residents in Stanley who knew Oswald and his mother.

 

Mrs. Cole’s son, William Henry Timmer, was subsequently interviewed by the FBI, and a 7-page interview was prepared.  Timmer recalled that he and Oswald rode bikes, went swimming, and visited the local library together.  Timmer also noted that Oswald introduced himself as “Harvey,” which is the third documented instance of that name preference for the boy during the period of 1953-54.  Earlier in 1953, the distinguished New York psychiatrist, Dr. Milton Kurian, interviewed young Oswald due to his truancy.  The boy indicated that he wished to be called Harvey.  And in January, 1954, Myra DaRouse, the homeroom teacher of Oswald at Beauregard Junior High School in New Orleans, welcomed into her classroom a student she would always address as “Harvey” at his request.

The leading authority on Oswald’s brief time spent in North Dakota is Gary Severson.  Gary is a good friend of mine, and we have had many conversations in which he recounted his travels throughout the country to locate witnesses who knew Oswald in North Dakota.  Along with John Delane Williams, Gary published multiple articles in The Fourth Decade on his research, which may be accessed as follows:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=48715#relPageId=3

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=48716#relPageId=3

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=48716#relPageId=31

This thread is supposed to be focusing on Oswald’s Russian’s language abilities and why he may have spoken the language with a Polish accent.  Thus far, we have been presented with no evidence of who was his Polish mentor and where or when the sessions took place.  Invariably, researchers grasp at straws for an explanation of Oswald’s mastery of reading and speaking Russian.  If he had received formal instruction, tutorials, or taught himself the language, there would be a paper trail leading back to his education in this enormously challenging language.  Oswald spoke and read like a native speaker, and if there is no evidence to the contrary, it was likely the case that he was indeed a native speaker or an individual who learned Russian as a second language at an early age.