The Killing Floor

[Matt Allison]

I'm way late to the party here, but this is unquestionably a big deal.

 

[Joe Bauer]

9 minutes ago, Matt Allison said:

Because Garner says she saw Truly and Baker come up after hearing Adams and Styles go down the stairs.

That shrinks the window of time in which LHO would have been able to get from the 6th floor to the lunchroom unnoticed.

True.

[Matt Allison]

The more people using the stairs between 12:30 and 12:32 without seeing LHO, the smaller a window of time LHO had to use the stairs unnoticed.

I read your rebuttal page, DVP. Despite what you write, timelines are most certainly critically important.

[Pete Mellor]

Nice one Rich!

Typical of a 'lone nut' member to question Garner's eyesight but ignore the Warren Commission's obvious suppression of witnesses who would not support their Oswald assassin agenda, or their clear alteration of statements, or their clear leading questions to witnesses and destruction of evidence in archives and the placement of these false testimonies in the Warren volumes.

I could see these illegalities being passed off in a third world or totalitarian state, but to be supported in a democracy staggers belief.

[Bob Ness]

2 hours ago, Pete Mellor said:

Nice one Rich!

Typical of a 'lone nut' member to question Garner's eyesight but ignore the Warren Commission's obvious suppression of witnesses who would not support their Oswald assassin agenda, or their clear alteration of statements, or their clear leading questions to witnesses and destruction of evidence in archives and the placement of these false testimonies in the Warren volumes.

I could see these illegalities being passed off in a third world or totalitarian state, but to be supported in a democracy staggers belief.

Exactly. That's David's problem. At some point you have to wonder why all the subterfuge on what would presumably be a slam dunk investigation? Some guy takes a few pot shots at a guy in a car in front of thousands of witnesses shouldn't require any (or very little) complicated investigatory methods to prove the case. Yet here we go again. Four witnesses, the closest people to the presumed act, are either ignored or their testimony is altered, and notes destroyed (prior to publication). This is actually fairly standard lawyer stuff, particularly then. Today recording depositions is so much easier it's harder to get away with that sort of thing. Back then I'm sure that would be standard lawyer tricks to the point nobody would even have to mention it.

Pre-interview to find the most advantageous witness (could be they are weaker, or testimony aligns closer). Ignore witnesses who could provide counter testimony. Feature witnesses whose testimony supports the argument you're trying to make. Alter testimony as needed and deny if it's objected to. In this case it will only be made public through a publication rather than court so no public examination of the witness will made and the "Bible" can be held up as PROOF(!), as is the case with Bugliosi and DVP.

[Bob Ness]

6 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

Only if a person wants to believe that Dorothy Garner had her eyes fixed on the TSBD staircase every single second just after the assassination.

From a 2014 discussion:

"Why in the world would anyone think Dorothy Garner had her eyes transfixed on the STAIRS every single second immediately following the President's assassination? How silly would that be, considering what had just happened outside those fourth-floor, SOUTH-SIDE windows just moments earlier? Why would she (or anyone) have kept a vigil on the staircase? Therefore, since it makes no logical sense to think that Garner (or ANYBODY ELSE) had their eyes peeled on those stairs every second, Oswald could have easily been on that 4th-floor landing for a matter of--what?--five seconds and not been seen by anyone who was on the same floor. Or do conspiracy theorists REALLY want to contend that Dorothy Garner never took her eyes off those stairs between 12:30 and 12:32 PM? That's incredibly silly to believe that's the case (even if she DID catch a glimpse of Truly and Baker)." -- DVP; Oct. 2014

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/Adams & Styles

 

David you're apparently not married because I can assure you she would have noticed somebody traversing the stairs. I have to walk like Kwai Chang Cane on rice paper to get past my wife WHEN SHE'S ASLEEP, and we don't have squeaky ramshackle stairs in our house. Unless you're legally blind of course. Then a person might have to have their gaze fixed on one point in space because they don't have peripheral vision but Garner wasn't. I've never been to the SBD but I assume she wasn't 200 feet away. In the thread you posted part of the justification for your argument (When did Dorothy Garner make such a statement? What document is it in? What interview?) as being no FBI or WC testimony to those events when in fact the absence of such testimony is exactly the problem. Why would anyone not want her testimony? She was one of the closest people to the presumptive killer and it didn't occur to them to take a statement under oath (other than the informal FBI questions)?

That fact alone is enough to dumpster the 800 page WR and the other 26 volumes as having no evidentiary value because of one simple fact. It was intentional. It wasn't an oversight. The order to destroy the transcripts further cements that fact.  It calls into question the veracity of the entire investigation unfortunately, and that's not the fault of CT's or LN's. This has always been the problem with the WR.

[James DiEugenio]

One of the things that is really telling about all of this is the requests made by Adams that were ignored:

1. She asked, why don't you talk to Sandy? Belin says, we have you, we do not need her.

2. She also asked, why not do a reconstruction?  Ball said they would.  There is no evidence they did.

Number one goes against all the rules of testimony.  Namely corroboration is important.  Its quite clear what Belin was up to. He did not want Styles in the Warren Report.  Because they would have had to distort and alter two witnesses, not just one.

Number two is also pretty bad.  The thing is, they would have had to do this with all the original witnesses for it to have any viability. Which means, Adams, Styles, Garner and Dorman. That would have blown up the whole Warren Report right there.

BTW, I was on those stairs back in 1991.  As is said in the DVD commentary to JFK Revisited, those are the old fashioned, high, wooden rickety steps out of westerns; not the kind in modern office buildings: short and cushioned. Its hard enough to buy they would not have seen him, its next to impossible to think they would not have heard him.

Edited October 15, 2022 by James DiEugenio

[Pat Speer]

9 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

Only if a person wants to believe that Dorothy Garner had her eyes fixed on the TSBD staircase every single second just after the assassination.

From a 2014 discussion:

"Why in the world would anyone think Dorothy Garner had her eyes transfixed on the STAIRS every single second immediately following the President's assassination? How silly would that be, considering what had just happened outside those fourth-floor, SOUTH-SIDE windows just moments earlier? Why would she (or anyone) have kept a vigil on the staircase? Therefore, since it makes no logical sense to think that Garner (or ANYBODY ELSE) had their eyes peeled on those stairs every second, Oswald could have easily been on that 4th-floor landing for a matter of--what?--five seconds and not been seen by anyone who was on the same floor. Or do conspiracy theorists REALLY want to contend that Dorothy Garner never took her eyes off those stairs between 12:30 and 12:32 PM? That's incredibly silly to believe that's the case (even if she DID catch a glimpse of Truly and Baker)." -- DVP; Oct. 2014

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/Adams & Styles

 

I wish I had an 8 year old quote with which to respond. 

But the reality is that those stairs were not quiet, and that Garner said she followed Adams and Styles as they ran to the stairs. And stayed behind in the storeroom... So, no, she never made out that she was watching the stairs every second. But she was insistent that Baker and Truly came up the stairs AFTER Adams and Styles ran down... 

For Oswald to have raced down the stairs and be in the second floor break room as Baker and Truly ran up, then, he would have to have raced down BEFORE Adams and Styles reached the stairwell. This was considered highly doubtful by Ball/Belin, so they pretended Adams was wrong about when she ran down the stairs, and ignored the statements of Styles and Garner. 

 

[David Von Pein]

13 hours ago, Pete Mellor said:

Typical of a 'lone nut' member to question Garner's eyesight...

I never once questioned Garner's eyesight. I'm questioning the idea that Dorothy Garner kept a continuous second-by-second vigil on the back staircase just after the assassination. Such a notion is ridiculous.

Edited October 16, 2022 by David Von Pein

[Ron Bulman]

On 10/13/2022 at 1:27 PM, James DiEugenio said:

Every once in while, Kennedys and King gets something really remarkable from our readers.  This one is a video representation by Rich Negrete. 

To my knowledge, its his first film--and I hope its not his last.  Its a kind of visual adaptation of The GIrl on the Stairs, but it actually goes beyond that book.

Considering its his first film, its moderately skillful for an amateur production. Plus its  clear, simple and straightforward in its presentation. As anyone can see, it took a lot of work to do something like this, in both collection and assembly.

Rich Negrete deserves a round of applause. 

https://www.kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/the-killing-floor

 

 

It is very good.  The format took me aback a bit initially, but the presentation overall kept me listening to the end.  It is certainly a compliment to The Girl On The Stairs.  A few notes.  

Vicki coming back in after being turned away by a cop at the RR tracks 5 minutes after the assassination.  Elevators not working.  Five minutes after.  Never remember reading this before.  Possibly something to do with a cover up or exfiltration?

I also don't remember seeing any interviews with Seth Kantor.  He's pretty straightforward. He knew Ruby and saw him at Parkland on 11/22/63.

Bugliosi.  Including Vicki in women can pull triggers too ???  Stupid.

Transcribed depositions of Adams, Shelly and Lovelady turned over to commission for destruction.  Damn.  If that's not incriminating what is.

Given the title of the thread and Documentary I can't resist.  I know it's a Howlin Wolf tune, but here's Hendrix in B/W.

 

Edited October 16, 2022 by Ron Bulman

[Matt Allison]

1 hour ago, David Von Pein said:

I'm questioning the idea that Dorothy Garner kept a continuous second-by-second vigil

Can one have a vigil in a 120 second time frame? That'd be a new one for me.

[David Von Pein]

2 hours ago, Matt Allison said:

Can one have a vigil in a 120 second time frame?

Sure. It was a very short "vigil", true. But nobody can possibly prove that Dorothy Garner had her eyes on this stairway in the northwest corner of the Book Depository Building (see floor plan below) for every moment of that (approx.) 120-second period (or however many minutes and seconds it actually was).

Also --- Take a look at the small area of the 4th floor that we're talking about here (i.e., the stairwell area in the upper-left corner of the floor plan I've presented below). How much time do you think it would have taken Lee Oswald (or anyone) to have navigated that corner stairway as he quickly came down from the fifth floor?

In other words, how long would Oswald have been in view of anyone on the 4th floor who happened to be looking toward the northwest corner during those few fleeting seconds? I'm guessing five seconds, tops. And after those few seconds on the corner "landing", he then would be totally out of sight of anyone on the fourth floor.

I can easily envision a scenario which has the sixth-floor assassin (namely: a Mr. Oswald) avoiding detection as he swiftly rounds that stairwell corner and flees down those stairs toward the third floor. And, realistically, all he needs in order to do that is five measly seconds away from the gaze of any prying eyes (maybe even less than five seconds).

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Related banter (via my saved discussions from 2013 and 2014)....

JEAN DAVISON SAID:

I have a question for anyone who accepts Vickie Adams' time line and believes that she came downstairs before Truly & Baker had reached the freight elevator on the 1st floor.

If she's right, how does her story prove that Oswald didn't come down those stairs?

In the WC version, Baker spotted Oswald just after each man had reached the second floor landing. That means that while Truly & Baker were rushing up from the 1st floor to the second, Oswald would've presumably been hurrying from about the 3rd floor to the 2nd. So where were Adams and Styles during that time, according to Adams? Already outside the building!

Can someone explain how her time line prevents Oswald from using those stairs?


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

It doesn't prevent Oswald from using those same stairs. And that is something I have also pointed out in my posts in the past:

"I'll say this regarding Vickie Adams' timeline....The more I think about this subject, the more I realize that even if Adams DID descend those stairs as quickly as she said she did, that particular scenario really does no harm whatsoever to the "Oswald Did It" conclusion.

Why?

Because...then Adams and Styles very likely BEAT Lee Harvey Oswald to the stairs. Hence, it's likely that Adams & Styles were always AHEAD of Oswald on their descent down the stairs.

And if Adams & Styles were really THAT fast at getting to the first floor, then they could have possibly beaten Baker & Truly too, with B&T only getting on the stairs after A&S had vacated the stairwell." -- DVP; February 17, 2011


COLIN CROW SAID:

Did Adams and Styles descend before or after Baker and Truly ascended?


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Conspiracy theorists are defeated either way.

If Adams and Styles descended BEFORE Baker and Truly started up the stairs, then there's absolutely no reason why Lee Oswald couldn't have used those same stairs without being seen or heard by the two women. Oswald would have simply been a little BEHIND Adams/Styles.

And if Adams/Styles descended AFTER Baker/Truly started up, then the girls were on the stairs AFTER all three men (Baker, Truly, and Oswald) had already used those same stairs.

Why is this so complicated for so many CTers? Regardless of which way the timing falls, there's no reason under the sun to conclude that Oswald couldn't have utilized those very same stairs in the northwest corner of the Book Depository Building and yet not be seen by Vickie Adams and Sandra Styles.

The conspiracy theorists who try and use "timeline" estimates provided by witnesses to positively prove that Oswald couldn't have shot President Kennedy are relying on very flimsy "proof". Especially in light of all of that OTHER stuff that Oswald left behind on the sixth floor that indicates Oswald was, indeed, up there shooting at the President with a Carcano rifle.

Also....

Can any CTer explain how the alleged "real assassin" (or assassins, plural)--i.e., an alleged killer OTHER than Lee Oswald--managed to get downstairs without anyone on ANY Depository floor noticing him/them?

CTers never want to face that question of "HOW DID THE REAL ASSASSINS ELUDE DETECTION?"

As long as Lee Harvey Oswald can somehow be exonerated via the flimsy "timeline" analysis, most CTers are happy. And to hell with the question I just asked above.

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Related Links:

https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/17359-new-book-on-victoria-adams-by-author-barry-ernest/

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2017/05/tsbd-photographs-and-floor-plans.html

 

Edited October 16, 2022 by David Von Pein

[Pat Speer]

You keep running away from the facts, David. The stairs were noisy. Garner followed Styles and Adams back to the stairs. She heard them go down. She then heard and saw Truly and Baker come up. No Oswald in between. The only possibility you should be entertaining then is that Oswald made it past the fourth floor before Adams and Styles reached the stairs. The timing for this is a problem. Thus, the charade put on by Ball/Belin. 

 

[David Von Pein]

18 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

You keep running away from the facts, David. The stairs were noisy. Garner followed Styles and Adams back to the stairs. She heard them go down. She then heard and saw Truly and Baker come up. No Oswald in between. The only possibility you should be entertaining then is that Oswald made it past the fourth floor before Adams and Styles reached the stairs. The timing for this is a problem. Thus, the charade put on by Ball/Belin. 

Has Dorothy Garner ever been interviewed by anyone, Pat? (Beyond the very short "Stroud document", that is.) Did she ever give any details about exactly where she was located (in relation to the stairs) at 12:30 to 12:32 PM CST on 11/22/63?

That would certainly be an important detail to know, don't you think?

The Stroud document is indeed interesting. But before declaring Oswald innocent, I think a little more info is needed beyond just this one single sentence regarding Miss Garner in this June 1964 letter:

Edited October 16, 2022 by David Von Pein

[James DiEugenio]

On 10/15/2022 at 4:21 AM, Matt Allison said:

I'm way late to the party here, but this is unquestionably a big deal.

 

IMO, this document, which was not found until 1999, is pretty shocking even for the WC. I wonder if there had been no ARRB if it would have been found at all.

This is June 2nd, and the Commission will not close its doors until about early to mid September.

This means that Rankin had 3 months to contact Garner, and then get her before the Commission. There is no evidence he did.  

If you add this to the failure to call Styles, and how they distorted and altered Adams' testimony, its simply unethical.  The kind of thing lawyers get disbarred on.

As we tried to show in JFK Revisited there is the real world, and there is the WC world.  In the real world, if you do stuff like this in court i.e. conceal exculpatory evidence, or alter testimony, there is a good chance the judge will throw the case out, or at least call a mistrial.  But Ball, Belin and Rankin had to do this.. If they had done an honest reconstruction, with all the witnesses there, and someone coming down the stairs without tennis shoes on?  With the time frame that Vickie and Sandy said, not the made up BS in the WR?  

In the real world, if you get caught doing this stuff, in all probability, the judge would have thrown out the case.

PS Thanks Ron.

Edited October 16, 2022 by James DiEugenio