To Tom Gram, the "unbiased" researcher who disputes Dale Myers

[David G. Healy]

54 minutes ago, Steve Roe said:

[...]

Mr. Myers is not a sloppy researcher, such as DiEugenio and his ilk.  The Destiny Betrayed film is a good example poor research chock full of provable errors. 

appropriate for my last post to this forum...

Mr. Myers is not a researcher, Mr. Myers is a story teller without credential... Mr. DiEugenio is a historian, researcher AND writer with credentials. -- Get you lies straight, we're forever cleaning up lone nut messes... as for .John, hopefully, I will see that asshole, soon...

Peace everyone -- even 'da nutters...

Edited December 3, 2022 by David G. Healy

[James DiEugenio]

Thanks Dave.

I mean how anyone can choose between Dale Myers and Henry Lee and come out on Myers' side is utterly incredible.

Myers went on prime time and called the Single Bullet Fantasy, the Single Bullet Fact.

Without telling the audience that the bullet path through Kennedy's back had not been dissected at autopsy.  

Or telling the audience why it had not been dissected.  Pierre FInck said under oath that the miltiary brass in the room stopped Humes from doing so.

Humes became so frustrated he shouted out, "Who's in charge here?"  An army general said that he was. Which tells you all you need to know about that autopsy.

Now, most normal thinking people would say that was kind of important testimony as to why the back wound was not dissected.

Now, did Dale say any of that in prime time?  Please show me where he did so.

But further, on top of that exclusion, where does Myers have any credentials to go ahead and then map out a trajectory through, not just Kennedy's, but JBC's body?  Where is his medical background on this?  What about his knowledge of anatomy?  What about his instruction in ER surgery to understand how bullets perform?

None

None

None

Did he admit to any of that in prime time?  Not that I can see.  This guy would be laughed out of court.

So what gives him the credentials and experience to do Crime Scene Reconstruction?  

Nothing as far as I can see.

And to compare him to Henry Lee is utterly preposterous.  Only in the JFK field could such a thing ever happen.  That is because its the Bermuda Triangle of forensics.  All the usual laws of evidence, science and investigatory protocol get thrown out the window.  Why?  Because the WR said CE 399 was genuine and it did what most people would consider not possible.

That is it.  After all, Myers updated something that never happened into the Single Bullet Fact. 🙃

 

 

[Bob Ness]

11 minutes ago, Tom Gram said:

My opinion on the Tippit shooting is that the evidence is ambiguous. A lot of the questions I’ve seen are valid, from the fingerprints on the car to the lineups to the way the DPD handled the alleged murder weapon.

I'm sure this is the way a lot of people who are new to the JFKA view not only Tippit but also the Oswald case. I liken it to being a juror looking over arguments presented and trying to determine in my own mind what could be likely or possible. At this point in time, I have to say (I don't think I've ever come down one way or another on either case) strictly from a perspective of a juror, I don't think a conviction is likely with Oswald in the JFKA. Possibly the Tippit case also, although I haven't looked at that as closely.

For that reason, it may seem like I have a bias. That is because when I came to this forum on an entirely different basis (I was researching in the Ed forum on a pilot script for a Cold War era spy show), I was pretty much an open book. In fact, I was much more apt to come down on the LN side of the argument, if you asked me then. I saw the movie JFK, watched the Zapruder film on Geraldo but that was about as much foreknowledge as I had. I was skeptical, particularly with the experience my parents had in the deep south and Texas but wouldn't throw away the WC findings. That's changed but I still try to stay somewhat open to arguments one way or the other.

I look back and can see that the preponderance of mudslinging and name calling was originating from WC supporters whose primary defense of the people questioning the WC conclusions was to call them kooks. That still stands today as the majority of MSM refer to "conspiracy theorists" with a wink and a nudge Of course researchers on both sides of the question have engaged in such activity but there are also a number of them that earnestly look at the assassination and present arguments in good faith. And sometimes both. 

[Bob Ness]

45 minutes ago, David G. Healy said:

appropriate for my last post to this forum...

Mr. Myers is not a researcher, Mr. Myers is a story teller without credential... Mr. DiEugenio is a historian, researcher AND writer with credentials. -- Get you lies straight, we're forever cleaning up lone nut messes... as for .John, hopefully, I will see that asshole, soon...

Peace everyone -- even 'da nutters...

Fair thee well!

[Steve Roe]

2 hours ago, David G. Healy said:

appropriate for my last post to this forum...

Mr. Myers is not a researcher, Mr. Myers is a story teller without credential... Mr. DiEugenio is a historian, researcher AND writer with credentials. -- Get you lies straight, we're forever cleaning up lone nut messes... as for .John, hopefully, I will see that asshole, soon...

Peace everyone -- even 'da nutters...

Historian? Take a listen to this when DiEugenio went up against a real historian and gets schooled. Listen particularly the first couple of minutes to hear how DiEugenio threw a fit. 

 

[Tom Gram]

5 hours ago, Steve Roe said:

I think you are badly misinformed about the remaining documents that the MFF filed the lawsuit against Biden. The only WIF (withheld in full) documents are primarily tax records, a total of 515 records. Those were exempted from the JFK Act. The MFF lawsuit is about the "redactions" in already released documents. The documents have already been released for viewing, it's the redactions in those documents that is covered in the lawsuit. 

I'm for the release of the redactions, and most likely Biden will comply, in my opinion. 

Dale Myers is not discouraging people to research, that's just crazy. A couple of years ago with another researcher, we discovered the magazine that Oswald ordered his murder weapon revolver out of. It was a long-time mystery for researchers, and we presented it to him. It was solid proof. He does have an open mind, but I can tell you from experience, he's extremely meticulous and verifies everything down to the nth degree. Mr. Myers is not a sloppy researcher, such as DiEugenio and his ilk.  The Destiny Betrayed film is a good example poor research chock full of provable errors. 

Steve, I’m talking about documents that have already been released. They’re just sitting in NARA and have never been put online, so only a handful people have ever seen them. 

And you’re wrong about Myers on this one. I think it was the blog post where he went on a diatribe against the Ed Forum, but he called anyone with an interest in studying the JFK case a pathetic loser, or something like that. 

EDIT: I don’t think the Buzzanco debate is the example you’re going for here. I think the vast majority of listeners would agree that Jim won that debate, and came off as much more cool-headed and knowledgeable about the case. Buzzanco admitted that he knew basically nothing about the assassination - after telling Jim repeatedly to “look at documents” - and he went on to append an introduction to the debate for his own podcast instead of presenting the debate unedited. 

Edited December 4, 2022 by Tom Gram

[Bill Brown]

46 minutes ago, Tom Gram said:

Steve, I’m talking about documents that have already been released. They’re just sitting in NARA and have never been put online, so only a handful people have ever seen them. 

And you’re wrong about Myers on this one. I think it was the blog post where he went on a diatribe against the Ed Forum, but he called anyone with an interest in studying the JFK case a pathetic loser, or something like that. 

 

...but he [Myers] called anyone with an interest in studying the JFK case a pathetic loser, or something like that. 

 

No, he didn't.

 

[Tom Gram]

12 minutes ago, Bill Brown said:

 

...but he [Myers] called anyone with an interest in studying the JFK case a pathetic loser, or something like that. 

 

No, he didn't.

 

You are correct - I didn’t remember it quite right. It was a series of comments targeted at anyone with questions about Oswald’s guilt, who according to Myers “abandon logic and reason in order to exonerate the avowed Marxist for a crime he was arrested for and charged with in the wake of the JFK assassination”.

The effect was similar though, since Myers included an appeal to his own authority and his categorization of those who disagree with his thesis was limited to the ignorant, egomaniacal, and “mental defectives who are so screwed up in the head and so in need of approval and direction that they’ve decided that hijacking a subject rich in controversy in order to find meaning for their life”. The rest of that article was an ad hominem littered diatribe against several members of this forum.

[James DiEugenio]

Wow Tom. That is pretty awful.

I guess I missed that.  I did not even know about it before I wrote my column.

Can you supply a URL?

[Tom Gram]

36 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

Wow Tom. That is pretty awful.

I guess I missed that.  I did not even know about it before I wrote my column.

Can you supply a URL?

http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2022/07/lies-and-deception-in-tippit-murder.html?m=1

Myers’ take on Greg D., who had been posting about the non-Oswald fingerprints on the patrol car and paper bag .38 recovered the following morning, ends with: 

“It’s all a dizzying, nauseous, pile of poo-poo that doesn’t amount to anything except a colossal waste of time. And on and on and on it goes. What’s next? The earth is flat?”

[James DiEugenio]

It's odd how GD is so struck by Myers, while Myers essentially rips him a new one.

Of course he does that with everyone except his trusted emissary Bill Brown.

Myers reminds me of the late film critic John Simon, who kind of defined the word arrogance.

Dale, why did you never interview Edgar Tippit in something like 30 years?  And that is just for starters.

And finally, I never saw that article before I wrote my "Dale Myers and his World of Illusion" piece.  I was only replying to his blast at the book of JFK Revisited and his drive by of the DVD package.  But reading it now, I am glad I did it.

Edited December 4, 2022 by James DiEugenio

[Steve Roe]

14 hours ago, Tom Gram said:

Steve, I’m talking about documents that have already been released. They’re just sitting in NARA and have never been put online, so only a handful people have ever seen them. 

And you’re wrong about Myers on this one. I think it was the blog post where he went on a diatribe against the Ed Forum, but he called anyone with an interest in studying the JFK case a pathetic loser, or something like that. 

EDIT: I don’t think the Buzzanco debate is the example you’re going for here. I think the vast majority of listeners would agree that Jim won that debate, and came off as much more cool-headed and knowledgeable about the case. Buzzanco admitted that he knew basically nothing about the assassination - after telling Jim repeatedly to “look at documents” - and he went on to append an introduction to the debate for his own podcast instead of presenting the debate unedited. 

1. Documents that have been released, sitting at NARA? You have to be more specific than that. Give me a link to look at. 

2. Of course, most of the conspiracy crowd here are going to favor DiEugenio, especially the Harvey & Lee contingency. Let me give you some insight why this debate happened. DiEugenio got upset over Noam Chomsky's talk about Kennedy being a "Cold Warrior". DiEugenio spells this out clearly in his opening argument. Buzzanco, a credentialed History Professor in Houston, is in agreement with Chomsky about Kennedy having actually studied all of this for years. Chomsky, a well-known and respected personality on the left, upset DiEugenio because of course, Stone/DiEugenio want lefties to support their narrative. So Buzzanco agreed to debate DiEugenio on Aaron Good's Podcast. Good is in the Skyhorse stable of book authors like DiEugenio. They have a connection. But Good conducted a fair moderation of the debate. 

The debate questions mainly centered around Kennedy's Foreign Policy and Vietnam. Stone/DiEugenio for whatever reason, believe Kennedy was murdered because he was a man of peace, was going to pull out of Vietnam and the "cough" Deep State killed him so they could have their war. Buzzanco is not into the minutiae of the Assassination, he mentions this many times. He was there to debate Kennedy's Foreign Policy and Vietnam and just how preposterous Stone/DiEugenio push this nutty narrative. Believe me there were many other historians before Buzzanco writing about this. 

Bottom line it was not a debate centered around whether Oswald was innocent or guilty. 

The debate format was not favorable to get into more detail on the remarks and rebuttals. 2-3 minutes to state your case, hardly enough time to get everything in, on both sides. But what is extremely clear is DiEugenio pushing a false narrative that Kennedy was pulling out of Vietnam. It's Poppycock and Pop Culture-Quasi History. 

One of the major points in the debate is the undeniable fact that Kennedy was in the Coup Planning of Diem. Yep, you can go to the Kennedy Library online and listen to the tape recorded. If you are pulling out of Vietnam, then why are you overthrowing the leadership and plunge it into chaos with American Military Advisors in country? 100% common sense. DiEugenio will never tell you this. 

Another mind-blowing claim by DiEugenio was Kennedy had no idea that there were assassination plots against Castro. Wow! 

 

[Ron Bulman]

On 12/3/2022 at 2:23 PM, David G. Healy said:

appropriate for my last post to this forum...

Mr. Myers is not a researcher, Mr. Myers is a story teller without credential... Mr. DiEugenio is a historian, researcher AND writer with credentials. -- Get you lies straight, we're forever cleaning up lone nut messes... as for .John, hopefully, I will see that asshole, soon...

Peace everyone -- even 'da nutters...

If you're still looking in. Merry Christmas.

 

[James DiEugenio]

That was a great way to sign off for Dave.  A VIetnam vet.

I will miss him.

 

Merry Xmas to you to Ron.

[Lawrence Schnapf]

Steve Roe- just a minor correction. The MFF lawsuit is not only seeking information currently redacted in records contained in the JFK Collection but also an order requiring NARA to complete the ARRB record search requests that were outstanding when the ARRB went out of business on 9/30/98. we also have reason to believe there are other assassination records that remain outside the collection (i.e., not in NARA's possession) and we are asking the court to order NARA to conduct a search for those records as well. These range from records held by the RFK Family Trust, NBC and several foreign countries (Over lunch today after the press conference, Judge Tunheim today told us about efforts by the ARRB to obtain records in Mexico, Cuba and Belarus but were unsuccessful due to political interference from within our own government.) The ARRB may have gone out of business on 9/30/98 but its work is not completed.

In other words, even if Biden ordered all the remaining records in the JFK Collection to be released in full (except of course for the tax records), our lawsuit would proceed on the other counts.