Jefferson Morley on A Major Break Coming in the JFK Assassination Story

[Gerry Down]

40 minutes ago, Tom Gram said:

Oswald flushing out subversives at Tulane is exactly what future Garrison investigator and CIA informant William Martin did for Guy Banister, and it’s something that Banister told the FBI he was interested in: 

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=81057#relPageId=20

So I think it’s a bit more likely that Oswald was sent to Tulane by Banister/Ferrie than DeBrueys. Also, if we believe Orestes Pena that Oswald was meeting with DeBrueys, he was also meeting INS/Customs people like Wendell Roache and David Smith, which Roache basically admitted to in his first phone call with the Church Committee.

This is speculation, but if Oswald was just trying to spin some version of the A.J. Hidell story he told SA Quigley and snitch on himself regarding the FPCC I feel like we would have heard about it by now. 

Do you think its possible that DeBrueys outsourced the Tulane activity to Banister? In other words, DeBrueys knew that university stuff was Banisters specialty and so DeBrueys introduced LHO to Banister in order to do the Tulane stuff.

Is that a kind of relationship the FBI entered into with private individuals like Banister?

Or would that have been exposing Banisters cover as a private detective to an unknown individual like Oswald, where Oswald could now see that this Banister character was actually doing anti-Castro work for the FBI rather than being a private detective as he professed to be? 

Edited December 14, 2022 by Gerry Down

[Steve Roe]

19 hours ago, Lance Payette said:

I love selecting one of these "conspiracy gospel factoids" and following it through. Throughout the conspiracy literature, the hotels Torni and Klaus Kurki are routinely referred to as "two of the finest and most luxurious hotels in Helsinki."

When Oswald arrived in Southampton, he told English customs officials he had $700 and planned to stay a week. $700 in 1959 is equivalent to $7,169 today, He actually left the next day. He spent one night at the Torni and then moved to the less expensive Klaus Kurki for a couple of nights.

I could find nothing about the room rates at either hotel in 1959, but they aren't that expensive today (roughly $200 for the Torni, $120 for the Klaus Kurki). I doubt seriously they put much of a dent in $700 in 1959.

"Way beyond his means"? Really? What is the implication - that the CIA or some other nefarious sponsor paid? If so, why did Oswald move to the less expensive Klaus Kurki? Hey, live it up at the Torni, false defector guy!

A minor point, surely, but EVERY TIME I follow through on one of these factoids of conspiracy gospel I find it doesn't withstand scrutiny. I mean, EVERY TIME. Where do these factoids come from, and why are they repeated uncritically by subsequent generations of "researchers"?

Please, show me I'm wrong here. Show me that in 1959 these were two of "the finest hotels" in Helsinki, "way beyond the means" of Oswald and his $700.

 

 

 

Lance, disregard DiEugenio's sophomoric answer to Helsinki Hotels in 1959. As usual he hasn't a clue, nothing new.

For the record, in 1959 the Finnish Markka (Pre-Euro currency) was 320FM to $1 USD. Researching old newspaper records back in 1958-59, First Class Hotels in Helsinki were going for $7.50 USD a night. I haven't found the cost for one night stay in the Torni or the Klause Kurki, but it's patently silly to believe it was anywhere near $100/night in 1959. The Klause Kurki was closer to the Soviet Embassy than the Torni, only 0.7 mile walk from that hotel. Reasonable to assume the Torni was a little more expensive. 

These were the days when the US$ was strong against other currencies. 

Also, Finland lifted the visa requirement for American citizen tourists in 1958, meaning Oswald could come in/out on his American Passport. There were many tourists from America going on Russian tours via Finland, this was nothing extraordinary. 

We do know, as per the record, Oswald spent $300 USD on Russian In-Tourist vouchers. 

 

[David Boylan]

4 hours ago, Larry Hancock said:

As far as the "camp" is concerned its important to keep in mind that it was a very small, very ill equipped place, basically a house...set up for the MDC and largely a scam (with talk of big donors but no money ever surfacing) so with very little money actually around it.  Some of the local Cubans did take food out there but it only lasted a few weeks until the raid on the abortive bombing mission from the McClaney property scared them off and the volunteers were returned to Miami on a bus. That camp was never raided, the McClaney place was but that was from a tip out of Miami.

Its also important to remember that several of the AC Cubans were already sources for the FBI, CIA or both so who said what for what purpose is murky at best. 

My view is that Oswald was a Cuban revolution supporter and would have possibly reported to the FBI on any gossip he heard about their military activities to the FBI, do obstruct their military activities.

Why Pena or Arnesto Rodriquez - who also mentioned Oswald knowing about a "camp" - would have thought that is unclear to me but we have to remember Oswald was also reported associating with Cubans from outside Miami who the locals did not know.  If David and I are right, that might well have included either Carlos or Victor Hernandez, who were both in the area in conjunction with the McClaney mission. What they might have passed in an approach to Oswald would be pure speculation.

 

We know the MDC camp was run by Angel Vega. Vega was one the leaders of the MDC in Miami that was led by, depending on when, Laureano Batista Falla. Informed speculation, but speculation, LHO still could have heard about the MDC camp from Carlos, if Carlos was indeed one of Oswald's escorts. Carlos worked closely with Batista Falla on infiltrating Cuba as late as March 1963 and as such, would have known of the camp seeing as though he was only a few miles away at the time. By summer of 1963, Carlos and Humberto Solis joined up with the procurer of JURE weapons, Carlos Zarraga.

[Gerry Down]

35 minutes ago, David Boylan said:

We know the MDC camp was run by Angel Vega. Vega was one the leaders of the MDC in Miami that was led by, depending on when, Laureano Batista Falla. Informed speculation, but speculation, LHO still could have heard about the MDC camp from Carlos, if Carlos was indeed one of Oswald's escorts. Carlos worked closely with Batista Falla on infiltrating Cuba as late as March 1963 and as such, would have known of the camp seeing as though he was only a few miles away at the time. By summer of 1963, Carlos and Humberto Solis joined up with the procurer of JURE weapons, Carlos Zarraga.

Is it possible that too much weight is being placed on the idea that Oswald knew for sure that there was a training camp? I would imagine that it had been in the newspapers that anti-Castro cubans were setting up training camps in cities in the southern US and so Oswald could have deduced that Bringuier might be someone that would know of such a camp and was hoping Bringuier would lead him to it. For example, N.O. Newspapers on Aug 1st 1963 were reporting the raid on the McClaney camp the previous day. So the newspapers were talking about such camps, and raids on them, and so Oswald could have been trying to see from Bringuier if there was any other one in New Orleans. Bringuier being a major anti-Castro individual in the city would know of such a camp or camps if there were any others there other than the one that had just been raided. 

[David Boylan]

Gerry,

Anything is possible. Arnesto said this:

[Gerry Down]

22 minutes ago, David Boylan said:

Gerry,

Anything is possible. Arnesto said this:

Thanks. I wonder if LHO actually gave the location as being north of Lake Ponchatrain or if LHO simply talked of a training camp and Arnesto assumed he was talking about the one North of Lake Ponchatrain. That is not clear from that segment of testimony.

What testimony is that taken from?

[James DiEugenio]

4 hours ago, Bob Ness said:

Uh yeah, my details may be foggy on that, but it was the lack of a report to SR that raised eyebrows. I think the routing was changed prior to not necessarily the documents. But I believe the routing may have hidden any that did get created as it went to Angleton's little folder that never has been seen. Something like that. I'm traveling so it isn't easy to check at the moment.

As Betsy Wolf figured out, someone rigged Oswald's file from the start.  Guaranteeing his papers would go to where they should not have gone, and not go to where they should have.

The goal seems to have been the avoidance of a 201 file.  For reasons unknown.

The HSCA had an opportunity to explore this crucial problem.  They did not.  As far as I can see, Wolf's handwritten notes were never even typed up into proper memoranda form.

[Tom Gram]

7 minutes ago, Gerry Down said:

Do you think its possible that DeBrueys outsourced the Tulane activity to Banister? In other words, DeBrueys knew that university stuff was Banisters specialty and so DeBrueys introduced LHO to Banister in order to do the Tulane stuff.

Is that a kind of relationship the FBI entered into with private individuals like Banister?

Oh absolutely. The government has always made extensive use of private subcontractors, and hiring someone like Banister for an ethically, morally, and/or legally questionable operation would be a no-brainer for plausible deniability, etc. A lot of these private detective companies had government security contracts anyway, and Mary Brengel, one of Banister’s secretaries, actually told the HSCA that Banister opened a separate company with a “bunch of former FBI agents” to handle special security contracts in the Summer of ‘63. 

There’s a company that fits the bill too. A bunch of former FBI agents from Southern Research Co. opened a separate branch five days after Oswald’s debate with Bringuier. These guys knew Banister, and there are multiple allegations of shared business interests despite their competition in the Ferrie Eastern Airlines case. Also on William Martin’s CIA employment history, his employment during the time he was supposedly flushing out subversives at Tulane for Banister was listed as Southern Research Co. on a “special assignment basis”. 

We also know that the CIA used an unnamed private detective company as a front in New Orleans, which I suspect was SRC, and DeBrueys never answered the question when the Church Committee asked him if he knew if Banister was doing any work for the CIA. 

One of the partners in that SRC branch actually gave his address on the articles of incorporation as Carlos Bringuier’s old apartment - that was still on his drivers license when he was arrested with Oswald, but I digress. 

Basically I suspect that’s exactly what happened: Banister was hired as a subcontractor for some type government work, possibly through SRC as an intermediary, and Oswald got mixed up in whatever the hell they were doing. I’m not sure about DeBruyes and the FBI as the principal, but I think it’s a safe bet that DeBrueys knew what was going on. 

[Gerry Down]

3 hours ago, Tom Gram said:

Oh absolutely. The government has always made extensive use of private subcontractors, and hiring someone like Banister for an ethically, morally, and/or legally questionable operation would be a no-brainer for plausible deniability, etc. A lot of these private detective companies had government security contracts anyway, and Mary Brengel, one of Banister’s secretaries, actually told the HSCA that Banister opened a separate company with a “bunch of former FBI agents” to handle special security contracts in the Summer of ‘63. 

There’s a company that fits the bill too. A bunch of former FBI agents from Southern Research Co. opened a separate branch five days after Oswald’s debate with Bringuier. These guys knew Banister, and there are multiple allegations of shared business interests despite their competition in the Ferrie Eastern Airlines case. Also on William Martin’s CIA employment history, his employment during the time he was supposedly flushing out subversives at Tulane for Banister was listed as Southern Research Co. on a “special assignment basis”. 

We also know that the CIA used an unnamed private detective company as a front in New Orleans, which I suspect was SRC, and DeBrueys never answered the question when the Church Committee asked him if he knew if Banister was doing any work for the CIA. 

One of the partners in that SRC branch actually gave his address on the articles of incorporation as Carlos Bringuier’s old apartment - that was still on his drivers license when he was arrested with Oswald, but I digress. 

Basically I suspect that’s exactly what happened: Banister was hired as a subcontractor for some type government work, possibly through SRC as an intermediary, and Oswald got mixed up in whatever the hell they were doing. I’m not sure about DeBruyes and the FBI as the principal, but I think it’s a safe bet that DeBrueys knew what was going on. 

If I'm understanding you correctly, after Oswald and DeBrueys got to know each other and discussed Oswald potentially becoming an informant, you could not see a situation where DeBrueys introduced Oswald to Banister at say a coffee shop and said to Oswald that this guy Banister will be handling your work at Tulane university rooting out pro-castro sympathizers. 

[Tom Gram]

1 hour ago, Gerry Down said:

If I'm understanding you correctly, after Oswald and DeBrueys got to know each other and discussed Oswald potentially becoming an informant, you could not see a situation where DeBrueys introduced Oswald to Banister at say a coffee shop and said to Oswald that this guy Banister will be handling your work at Tulane university rooting out pro-castro sympathizers. 

I think that’s very possible. I just haven’t seen much evidence for the FBI using subcontractors like that, at least in the early 60s in New Orleans. There are some allegations though of the FBI using private detectives for electronic surveillance, etc., but the only actual evidence I’ve seen is pretty flimsy. 

The CIA on the other hand used subcontractors all the time, plus they actively sought out and formed direct partnerships with private detective agencies, including at least one in New Orleans in the early 60s. They eventually passed a rule banning the use of private detective agencies in the early 70s - but there’s evidence suggesting that they may have violated that rule after it was passed.

The CIA also used the Customs Bureau for cover - and Orestes Pena alleged that Oswald was seen at the Customs house and that he met with Customs investigator David Smith. As pointed out by Malcolm Blunt, the only time Warren DeBrueys didn’t have a long, rambling, overly articulate immediate answer in his Church Committee testimony is when he was asked if he knew Smith, which I think is pretty interesting.  

Basically all I’m trying say is if Banister was subcontracted by the government to run domestic operations, the FBI would not be my first suspect for who hired him, but I think it’s an intriguing possibility. 

[Ron Bulman]

48 minutes ago, Tom Gram said:

I think that’s very possible. I just haven’t seen much evidence for the FBI using subcontractors like that, at least in the early 60s in New Orleans. There are some allegations though of the FBI using private detectives for electronic surveillance, etc., but the only actual evidence I’ve seen is pretty flimsy. 

The CIA on the other hand used subcontractors all the time, plus they actively sought out and formed direct partnerships with private detective agencies, including at least one in New Orleans in the early 60s. They eventually passed a rule banning the use of private detective agencies in the early 70s - but there’s evidence suggesting that they may have violated that rule after it was passed.

The CIA also used the Customs Bureau for cover - and Orestes Pena alleged that Oswald was seen at the Customs house and that he met with Customs investigator David Smith. As pointed out by Malcolm Blunt, the only time Warren DeBrueys didn’t have a long, rambling, overly articulate immediate answer in his Church Committee testimony is when he was asked if he knew Smith, which I think is pretty interesting.  

Basically all I’m trying say is if Banister was subcontracted by the government to run domestic operations, the FBI would not be my first suspect for who hired him, but I think it’s an intriguing possibility. 

So, if the CIA was using Bannister to run Oswald, was he a cut out?  I.E., if there ever was any blowback on Oswald in New Orleans it would lead to him, and his time as head of the Chicago FBI office.  Thus, pointing the finger at them.

[Gerry Down]

14 hours ago, Tom Gram said:

Oh absolutely. The government has always made extensive use of private subcontractors, and hiring someone like Banister for an ethically, morally, and/or legally questionable operation would be a no-brainer for plausible deniability, etc. A lot of these private detective companies had government security contracts anyway, and Mary Brengel, one of Banister’s secretaries, actually told the HSCA that Banister opened a separate company with a “bunch of former FBI agents” to handle special security contracts in the Summer of ‘63. 

There’s a company that fits the bill too. A bunch of former FBI agents from Southern Research Co. opened a separate branch five days after Oswald’s debate with Bringuier. These guys knew Banister, and there are multiple allegations of shared business interests despite their competition in the Ferrie Eastern Airlines case. Also on William Martin’s CIA employment history, his employment during the time he was supposedly flushing out subversives at Tulane for Banister was listed as Southern Research Co. on a “special assignment basis”. 

We also know that the CIA used an unnamed private detective company as a front in New Orleans, which I suspect was SRC, and DeBrueys never answered the question when the Church Committee asked him if he knew if Banister was doing any work for the CIA. 

One of the partners in that SRC branch actually gave his address on the articles of incorporation as Carlos Bringuier’s old apartment - that was still on his drivers license when he was arrested with Oswald, but I digress. 

Basically I suspect that’s exactly what happened: Banister was hired as a subcontractor for some type government work, possibly through SRC as an intermediary, and Oswald got mixed up in whatever the hell they were doing. I’m not sure about DeBruyes and the FBI as the principal, but I think it’s a safe bet that DeBrueys knew what was going on. 

 

9 hours ago, Tom Gram said:

I think that’s very possible. I just haven’t seen much evidence for the FBI using subcontractors like that, at least in the early 60s in New Orleans. There are some allegations though of the FBI using private detectives for electronic surveillance, etc., but the only actual evidence I’ve seen is pretty flimsy. 

The CIA on the other hand used subcontractors all the time, plus they actively sought out and formed direct partnerships with private detective agencies, including at least one in New Orleans in the early 60s. They eventually passed a rule banning the use of private detective agencies in the early 70s - but there’s evidence suggesting that they may have violated that rule after it was passed.

The CIA also used the Customs Bureau for cover - and Orestes Pena alleged that Oswald was seen at the Customs house and that he met with Customs investigator David Smith. As pointed out by Malcolm Blunt, the only time Warren DeBrueys didn’t have a long, rambling, overly articulate immediate answer in his Church Committee testimony is when he was asked if he knew Smith, which I think is pretty interesting.  

Basically all I’m trying say is if Banister was subcontracted by the government to run domestic operations, the FBI would not be my first suspect for who hired him, but I think it’s an intriguing possibility. 

Insightful comments as always Tom, much thanks.

The way I was looking at this was that DeBrueys and Oswald met in some fashion around late June 1963 and an agreement was made that Oswald might become an informant for the FBI. Though I believe DeBrueys real goal was just to try and figure out who Oswald was and if he was just a harmless nut setting up his own FPCC chapter. And as part of this, DeBrueys decided to use Oswald to see whatever intel he might get out of Oswald on pro-Castro individuals in New Orleans as part of this effort.

In this capacity DeBrueys introduced Oswald to some of the INS and Customs people as part of some joint effort with the FBI. I presume the FBI was working with the INS  to root out pro-Castro refugees that were in the country illegally, and perhaps the FBI were working with Customs to locate maybe illegal firearms that should not be in the country which the cuban refugees might be planning on using in attacks on Cuba. I think it might have been something like that why DeBrueys might have had Oswald hanging around Customs people anyway.

I think the evidence is stronger that Oswald and DeBrueys knew each other based on the testimony of Pena. However the evidence is somewhat weaker that Oswald knew Banister based on the testimony of William Gaudet. Gaudet himself was under suspicion as having some type of relationship with Oswald so Gaudets assertion that he had seen Oswald with Banister might be an effort to deflect attention away from himself. This is why I feel Gaudets testimony is not altogether reliable.

As per your comments, it seems to me now somewhat unlikely that DeBrueys would have introduced Oswald to Banister in order to do the Tulane leafleting work.  From what you’re saying, it would seem that if Gaudets testimony is true, that Oswald and Banister knew each other, then this Banister-Oswald relationship would more likely have originated from the CIA rather than the FBI. But I’m having difficulty seeing how the CIA would want this type of relationship or what they had to gain from it. It would seem unlikely that Oswald was working for both the FBI and CIA in New Orleans that summer. You would think it would be one or the other but not both.

[David Boylan]

For those that like to read docs:

Warren DeBrueys report. His PSI was Arnesto Rodriguez. Copies sent to Miami and INS.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=80631#relPageId=2

Bringuier and Rodriguez as FBI informants.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=193664#relPageId=2

Bringuier has sign from Arnesto 

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=95624#relPageId=65

 

Arnesto and Bringuier with tape and transcript of LHO and Butler

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10490#relPageId=542

 

Arnesto Sr - https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=8890#relPageId=2

 

Arnesto Rodriguez getting help from Americans and weapons. Good doc. Needed money.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=25527#relPageId=5

 

Arnesto files, Gerry Hemming file 

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=81672#relPageId=2

[Gerry Down]

16 minutes ago, David Boylan said:

For those that like to read docs:

Warren DeBrueys report. His PSI was Arnesto Rodriguez. Copies sent to Miami and INS.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=80631#relPageId=2

Bringuier and Rodriguez as FBI informants.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=193664#relPageId=2

Bringuier has sign from Arnesto 

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=95624#relPageId=65

 

Arnesto and Bringuier with tape and transcript of LHO and Butler

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10490#relPageId=542

 

Arnesto Sr - https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=8890#relPageId=2

 

Arnesto Rodriguez getting help from Americans and weapons. Good doc. Needed money.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=25527#relPageId=5

 

Arnesto files, Gerry Hemming file 

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=81672#relPageId=2

Big thanks for those. Must add them to my documents collection.

[Tom Gram]

2 minutes ago, Gerry Down said:

 

Insightful comments as always Tom, much thanks.

The way I was looking at this was that DeBrueys and Oswald met in some fashion around late June 1963 and an agreement was made that Oswald might become an informant for the FBI. Though I believe DeBrueys real goal was just to try and figure out who Oswald was and if he was just a harmless nut setting up his own FPCC chapter. And as part of this, DeBrueys decided to use Oswald to see whatever intel he might get out of Oswald on pro-Castro individuals in New Orleans as part of this effort.

In this capacity DeBrueys introduced Oswald to some of the INS and Customs people as part of some joint effort with the FBI. I presume the FBI was working with the INS  to root out pro-Castro refugees that were in the country illegally, and perhaps the FBI were working with Customs to locate maybe illegal firearms that should not be in the country which the cuban refugees might be planning on using in attacks on Cuba. I think it might have been something like that why DeBrueys might have had Oswald hanging around Customs people anyway.

I think the evidence is stronger that Oswald and DeBrueys knew each other based on the testimony of Pena. However the evidence is somewhat weaker that Oswald knew Banister based on the testimony of William Gaudet. Gaudet himself was under suspicion as having some type of relationship with Oswald so Gaudets assertion that he had seen Oswald with Banister might be an effort to deflect attention away from himself. This is why I feel Gaudets testimony is not altogether reliable.

As per your comments, it seems to me now somewhat unlikely that DeBrueys would have introduced Oswald to Banister in order to do the Tulane leafleting work.  From what you’re saying, it would seem that if Gaudets testimony is true, that Oswald and Banister knew each other, then this Banister-Oswald relationship would more likely have originated from the CIA rather than the FBI. But I’m having difficulty seeing how the CIA would want this type of relationship or what they had to gain from it. It would seem unlikely that Oswald was working for both the FBI and CIA in New Orleans that summer. You would think it would be one or the other but not both.

I think the scenario you’re proposing is very plausible since DeBrueys, Smith, and Roache, etc. did coordinate frequently since they were the investigators for their respective agencies assigned to Cuban exile activities. DeBrueys cc’d INS and Customs on basically all of his FBI reports on Cubans, and they even shared informants. 

The issue I have is with the FPCC business, the Canal St. incident, and Oswald’s use of 544 Camp St. Everything about it reeks of being a propaganda op. The evidence is pretty compelling IMO that Oswald didn’t just dream that up on his own and decide one day to dedicate a massive amount of his time and energy to advocating for a defunct pro-Castro organization. 

The evidence for Oswald knowing Banister personally might be questionable, but the evidence for Oswald knowing David Ferrie is very credible and corroborated  independently by several witnesses, the most significant of which IMO is Wendell Roache. Ferrie worked with Banister, though I think he wasn’t a formal employee, and he was pretty much the perfect choice for managing a totally deniable operation. With Ferrie’s background and habits he could be easily leveraged and/or discredited if necessary, plus he was a fanatic, an effective leader, and had a prior connection to Oswald. 

The CIA (and the FBI) definitely had an interest in discrediting the FPCC, and I believe they formed a joint initiative to do exactly that in foreign countries right around the time of the Mexico City business. If Oswald was indeed being manipulated and/or told what to do in New Orleans with his FPCC “chapter”, the MO seems to fit the CIA better than the FBI - but I really have no idea. I assume there’d be several layers of insulation and compartmentalization for any domestic op since it would violate the CIA charter, which I’d guess in this case would look something like CIA > primary contractor > Banister > Ferrie > Oswald.