David Atlee Phillips: Oswald never went to Mexico!

[David Josephs]

34 minutes ago, Steve Roe said:

David Josephs, bottom line. Was Lee Harvey Oswald in Mexico City? 

If not, how do you explain Silvia Duran's name in Oswald's notebook? 

Are you still believer in Harvey and Lee?

1. No

2. Copies of Oswald's notebook provided by FBI...  one does wonder, cause, like, the evidence is always authenticated in this case, right?  Especially when the FBI is the source.  

3. Not a matter of belief Mr. Roe

You aint gonna learn what you dont wanna know....

 

 

[Steve Roe]

13 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

1. No

2. Copies of Oswald's notebook provided by FBI...  one does wonder, cause, like, the evidence is always authenticated in this case, right?  Especially when the FBI is the source.  

3. Not a matter of belief Mr. Roe

You aint gonna learn what you dont wanna know....

 

 

1. No

Ok, where was Oswald, or Harvey or Lee during the Mexico City episode?

2. Copies of Oswald's notebook provided by FBI...  one does wonder, cause, like, the evidence is always authenticated in this case, right?  Especially when the FBI is the source.  

One doesn't have to wonder David, surely you don't believe the FBI planted or wrote Ms. Duran's name in his notebook, do you?

3. Not a matter of belief Mr. Roe

Ok, not a belief, but an undeniable fact in your mind, right?

You aint gonna learn what you dont wanna know....

Pretty big assumption you make there. I'm giving you a chance to explain the alternative, and so far, it just doesn't add up. 

 

 

[Evan Marshall]

It seems to me that if Phillips knew Oswald wasn't in Mexico he must have KNOWN where he really was during this time frame.

[Paul Brancato]

could someone post a link to Oswald’s notebook pics? 
leaving aside the important question of whether Oswald was in MC, and if so what did he do there, can we assume that CIA knows the answers? If they are lying about Oswald in MC surely they know where else he might have been. A question for those that think he was doing exactly what CIA and FBI says he was - why was he impersonated? Do the posters here who argue in favor of Oswald visiting Cuban and Soviet Consulates agree that he was also impersonated? 

[James DiEugenio]

6 hours ago, David Josephs said:

 

Here you go Jim... on the right

Thanks for that David.  Eddie made a point to me to look for that when I visited him back in the nineties.

[Sandy Larsen]

On 1/3/2023 at 8:26 AM, David Josephs said:

 

I think Hoover knew On October 10 when he sees that cable...  He KNOWS Oswald is elsewhere... on the way to Odio with "comrades" via Austin.   hidden within over 1600 documents is the reality he never went and Tarasoff aided as a CIA contract employee...  FWIW

 

The first time I read this, I thought Hoover was referring to the fake PARTS of the MC story... the impersonator at the embassies, the fake phone calls, and fake surveillance photos. Now that I know more, I realize that he was calling the whole story fake.

That Oswald wasn't even in MC is important information that should be published in a book. Thank goodness for David Josephs and Jim DiEugenio that it is documented and published on K&K.

Thanks especially go to David Josephs for researching and documenting this important topic.

 

[Steve Roe]

1 hour ago, Paul Brancato said:

could someone post a link to Oswald’s notebook pics? 
leaving aside the important question of whether Oswald was in MC, and if so what did he do there, can we assume that CIA knows the answers? If they are lying about Oswald in MC surely they know where else he might have been. A question for those that think he was doing exactly what CIA and FBI says he was - why was he impersonated? Do the posters here who argue in favor of Oswald visiting Cuban and Soviet Consulates agree that he was also impersonated? 

Paul, if you are referring to Oswald writing Silvia Duran's name in his notebook while he was in Mexico City follow this link. He also wrote down the address of Cubana Airlines in MXC. He was there, absolutely no doubt. 

 https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth346819/m1/45/?q=Oswald's book

[Sandy Larsen]

On 1/3/2023 at 8:29 AM, David Josephs said:

....For the entire month of November Hoover had agents and assets looking for any sign of Oswald in Mexico including their asset OCHOA at the Gobernacion

A day before the famous "memos" go out Phillips arrives in Mexico...  amazing.

 

 

 

 

David,

The documents above show that the FBI was trying to find evidence of Oswald in MC as early as 11/4/63.

I was unaware of this. I had always assumed that their MC investigation was triggered by the assassination.

Do you have any idea what triggered the FBI's pre-assassination investigation of MC?

 

[Matt Allison]

Anyone that arranged for Oswald or an imposter to do what was alleged in Mexico City had to be supremely confident they could cover up evidence of it later.

I've never read the Lopez report beginning to end, and it's time I finally did.

[James DiEugenio]

Sandy,

It might have been the whole Kostikov cable and that connection.

IN fact I think that was it.

 

[James DiEugenio]

Just now, Matt Allison said:

Anyone that arranged for Oswald or an imposter to do what was alleged in Mexico City had to be supremely confident they could cover up evidence of it later.

I've never read the Lopez report beginning to end, and it's time I finally did.

Matt:

Its a truly remarkable achievement.

And to think how they were being obstructed near the end by Joannides, it might have been Joannides who moved them out of the reading room at Langley, and transferred them to a room at the HSCA HQ with a double enclosed safe with a secretary writing down each document and timing it. 

Prior to this, they were at Langley and getting uncensored documents direct from the CIA.

When they transferred them to the HSCA office with the double safe, they had to turn in all of their work product each day, this included their notes.

Then according to Danny, they started to get long wait times---and then the documents would be in redacted form.

To turn out a report like that under those conditions, really something.

[Sandy Larsen]

On 1/3/2023 at 8:29 AM, David Josephs said:

The man Ruby killed was not in Mexico at the end of Sept/Oct 1963... and there is truly no reason to believe anyone impersonated him...

 

David,

What about the "Oswald" at the Cuban Consulate? You don't believe he was a short, slender, blond-haired man who claimed to  be Lee Harvey Oswald?

 

[Tom Gram]

3 hours ago, Steve Roe said:

Paul, if you are referring to Oswald writing Silvia Duran's name in his notebook while he was in Mexico City follow this link. He also wrote down the address of Cubana Airlines in MXC. He was there, absolutely no doubt. 

 https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth346819/m1/45/?q=Oswald's book

Steve is making a good point here. Why the heck would Oswald write Sylvia Duran’s name in his notebook if he wasn’t in Mexico City at all? 

Could that page have been forged? Sure, but is there any actual evidence that it was forged? Was there any handwriting comparison done on the notebook? What were the circumstances of discovery of the relevant page? When was it first reported? Are there any oddities about its chain of possession after it was discovered? etc. etc. 

As researchers, if we’re going to try to make a case for document forgery we need evidence to back it up. There are several documents in this case where such evidence exists, and a few where forgery/alteration would probably even hold up in court, but claiming a document must be fake without any supporting evidence is just not credible.

Edited January 4, 2023 by Tom Gram

[Benjamin Cole]

3 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

David,

The documents above show that the FBI was trying to find evidence of Oswald in MC as early as 11/4/63.

I was unaware of this. I had always assumed that their MC investigation was triggered by the assassination.

Do you have any idea what triggered the FBI's pre-assassination investigation of MC?

 

Great question. The FBI was curious about LHO pre-assassination....

[Benjamin Cole]

56 minutes ago, Tom Gram said:

Steve is making a good point here. Why the heck would Oswald write Sylvia Duran’s name in his notebook if he wasn’t in Mexico City at all? 

Could that page have been forged? Sure, but is there any actual evidence that it was forged? Was there any handwriting comparison done on the notebook? What were the circumstances of discovery of the relevant page? When was it first reported? Are there any oddities about its chain of possession after it was discovered? etc. etc. 

As researchers, if we’re going to try to make a case for document forgery we need evidence to back it up. There are several documents in this case where such evidence exists, and a few where forgery/alteration would probably even hold up in court, but claiming a document must be fake without any supporting evidence is just not credible.

TG-

I am not speaking to the particulars of this situation, but in general I agree with you.

Too often, researchers cherry-pick witnesses and documents. Those witnesses and docs that do not fit a chosen pattern are then dismissed, one way or the other.

This problem, however, is further complicated by the FBI penchant to not record witness interviews (back then), and to perhaps pressure witnesses, and for some level of document manipulation. 

It is a matter of historical record, for example, that E. Howard Hunt was forging cables while in the Nixon White House. 

I understand the academic model of developing a hypothesis and then testing it. 

But in detective work, I think it works the other way around. Develop the evidence first, and then muddle around. 

 

 

 

Edited January 5, 2023 by Benjamin Cole