David Atlee Phillips: Oswald never went to Mexico!

[Matthew Koch]

14 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Yes, another reason for the photo to disappear (although they could have cropped the other guy out of the photo). Even for the non-LHO man the CIA presented as LHO, everything was cropped out except the mystery man. 

The CIA may have had its share of bungling too. Was "Lee Henry Oswald" a clever filing trick, or just a simple error?

Down in Mexico City, tequilas and pretty girls at night...getting paid for sleeping through the afternoon....maybe the CIA was not all men 10 feet tall...

Ben, watch the 3 part series "On Company Business" it's about the CIA. Phillips is interviewed in it acouple of times and he explicitly mentions Lee Henry Oswald in a manner that I thought implied he wasn't there. On the other hand in Win Scotts manuscript which you can read relevant parts in Jefferson Morley's 'Our Man in Mexico' Win Scott allegedly had the photo in his safe and when he died Angleton showed up to retrieve what was in Scotts safe. The photo supposedly had Oswald in the company of other people. Which would corroborate the Russians that were going to go play volley ball. It may also be the reason for the mystery man photo because Oswald in the company of others would be, problematic to say the least. I think Joe is correct that it doesn't really matter, imo you just have to build two scenarios where Oswald is either at Silvia Odio's or in Mexico. I think one of the most important things about MX City is that it is when JFK's trip is announced and the impersonations of Oswald start again. J.Edgar Hoover is on record while Oswald is in Minsk wondering if Oswald is being impersonated.

A really, really interesting connection IMO is that Skorzeny was living in Madrid Spain and was working with people who put on bull fights. This bullfight connection will show up with Clay Shaw and Oswald's Mexican Mystery Tour. 

Edited December 27, 2022 by Matthew Koch

[Bob Ness]

3 hours ago, Michaleen Kilroy said:

“We’re the CIA. We have other cameras.”

Exactly. Why they needed some new-fangled "pulse camera" or whatever is another interesting question. A motion picture camera with an intervalometer would do exactly the same thing all day and night. It's been done since about 1910. Maybe that's what they were talking about but it's not and wasn't anything secret.

[Jonathan Cohen]

15 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

And I'm not alone. I've discussed the case with a number of the top researchers re the JFKA "spook stuff". And they largely agree Oswald went to Mexico, but was impersonated while he was down there. I mean, think about it. It would be pretty stupid if they impersonated him in Mexico City while he was at home with Marina and Junie, or was at an ACLU meeting with Michael Paine, or was debating Bringuier on TV in New Orleans. They must have known where he was, and that no proof would emerge he was elsewhere. 

Thank you, Pat, for once again adding the proper nuance to this particular issue .. something that many regular posters here refuse to do.

[Sandy Larsen]

On 12/26/2022 at 10:49 AM, Matt Allison said:

On 12/25/2022 at 10:50 PM, James DiEugenio said:

But I will just add this: one reason we do not know the whole story is that Phillips and Goodpasture lied to the HSCA. And they lied on material points.

Which is why anything Phillips ever said has to be taken with a giant grain of salt.

 

I agree with you in general, but there are exceptions.

Early on and for decades, Phillips insisted that Oswald went to  Mexico City. That alone would tell me that maybe he did, or maybe he didn't. Can't trust him.

But that he changed his mind much later on, when it no longer mattered, tells me that what he said at first was only what he wanted others to believe... that Oswald did indeed go to Mexico City. And that he had finally given up trying to convince others that he did. He no longer cared.

 

[James DiEugenio]

To Pat and Jonathan:

Some nuance, if Oswald went to Mexico City, who was at Odio's door?

That one drove the Warren Commission and the  FBI batty.

[Paul Brancato]

21 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

There is almost no evidence for Oswald's getting on a bus in New Orleans. I don't think he was on that bus. When I was first researching this stuff, I read all I could about his late night phone call to Horace Twiford in Houston. He made out that he could visit Twiford at his home. As a consequence, I think Oswald was coming to Houston from somewhere else, and that someone was driving him to Houston. 

There is this "throw every thing at the wall and see if it sticks" attitude amongst too many researchers, IMO. Oswald was in Mexico? Oh not he wasn't! An M/C rifle was found in the school book depository? Oh, no, one wasn't! And on and on... In order to embrace this "everything is fake" thesis, one must throw out the statements of dozens of witnesses--many of which are largely supportive of Oswald's innocence.

It's throwing the baby out with the bathwater, IMO. 

And I'm not alone. I've discussed the case with a number of the top researchers re the JFKA "spook stuff". And they largely agree Oswald went to Mexico, but was impersonated while he was down there. I mean, think about it. It would be pretty stupid if they impersonated him in Mexico City while he was at home with Marina and Junie, or was at an ACLU meeting with Michael Paine, or was debating Bringuier on TV in New Orleans. They must have known where he was, and that no proof would emerge he was elsewhere. 

So why not just have him go down to Mexico City, expenses paid, in the name of testing security, etc? 

 

It’s an interesting possibility. From your response I gather you think LHO was there purely to offer cover for the impersonation of him, and not otherwise on an assignment. If your theory is correct the Odio incident must have caught CIA unawares. 
As for photographs of him in MC at the consulates I’ll go with no pictures exist because he didn’t visit the consulates. 

[James DiEugenio]

Paul;

The latter is the case.  Strengthened  by the photo  inventory check we have, plus the two plants inside the Cuban embassy. They both said Oswald was not there.

[Sandy Larsen]

21 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

So why not just have [Oswald] go down to Mexico City, expenses paid, in the name of testing security, etc?

 

The MC trip was the most important part of the CIA plot to connect Oswald to Cuba and Russia in the (fake) conspiracy to kill JFK. Having the real Oswald go there risked messing up the plan.

Without the real Oswald in the way in MC, the Oswald impersonator could precisely follow a script.

(Just so I'm not misunderstood... yes there was a conspiracy between the CIA and others to kill Kennedy. That is not the same as the FAKE conspiracy I spoke of above. The CIA fabricated the fake conspiracy.)

 

[Michael Griffith]

On 12/25/2022 at 4:56 PM, James DiEugenio said:

There is a difference between saying he was not there and there is no evidence or proof he was there.

But all in all, Phillips agreed with Danny and Eddy in the Lopez Report. Namely, that Oswald did not visit either embassy.

Which makes the three KGB guys, and their book, kind of dubious.

As does this fact: if Oswald really talked to Kostikov why did it take that cable 7 days to get to Langley? It should have been there in 24 hours.

Exactly. Hardway and Lopez were and are convinced that Oswald did go to Mexico City, but that he did not visit the Cuban Embassy or the Soviet Consulate. Richard Case Nagell was adamant that Oswald went to Mexico City because Nagell met up with him there.

Also, it's highly doubtful that the "Oswald" who called the Soviet Consulate was the real Oswald, since the man spoke atrocious, barely intelligible Russian.

Edited December 27, 2022 by Michael Griffith

[Sandy Larsen]

On 12/26/2022 at 1:06 PM, James DiEugenio said:

1. Sandy;

The USC debate [with David Phillips and Mark Lane] was in 1977. During the HSCA.

 

Jim,

In his HSCA testimony, Phillips was still defending the "Oswald was in MC" line, right? Even though at USC he placed doubt on the evidence of Oswald being there?

 

[James DiEugenio]

I think that is correct Sandy.

 

Can you explain what you mean by a fake conspiracy and a real conspiracy?

[Matt Allison]

16 minutes ago, Michael Griffith said:

Richard Case Nagell was adamant that Oswald went to Mexico City because Nagell met up with him there.

Not the Mexico City trip that we're all familiar with, as Nagell was arrested on 9/20/63, when LHO was still in New Orleans.

[Matt Allison]

1 hour ago, James DiEugenio said:

Some nuance, if Oswald went to Mexico City, who was at Odio's door?

That one drove the Warren Commission and the  FBI batty.

LHO visited the Odios Wednesday night, September 25th, 1963, so it still works within a timeline of him going to MC.

[Sandy Larsen]

5 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

Can you explain what you mean by a fake conspiracy and a real conspiracy?

 

The Real Conspiracy:

Certain members of the CIA conspired to kill Kennedy. The conspiracy may have included others, like military generals or certain Secret Service officials.

The purpose of this conspiracy was a coup d'etat.

 

The Fake Conspiracy:

Those same certain members of the CIA went to great lengths to create a completely bogus story, whereby pro-Castro Oswald travels to Mexico City (in a car with others IMO) the purpose of which was for Oswald (and his team IMO) to arrange for the killing of JFK. He met with Cubans and Russians, attended a Party at the Duran's home, spoke to KGB assassinations chief Valeriy Kostikov, and collected a $6500 down payment for the killing from a red-haired black man.

This is the fake conspiracy (between Oswald, Cuba. and Russia). It was meant to implicate Cuba and Russia in the killing of Kennedy. Either as a pretext for Cuban invasion, or to prevent WW3.... I'm not sure which. I personally think it is the former, because, according to Jame's Hosty's book, not too long after the assassination, U.S. fighter jets were sent to Cuba. They were called back before they arrived.

Optional Reading: (This part is less developed.) I believe that the CIA plot didn't work out as planned because, unbeknownst to U.S. intelligence, Mexican intelligence was aware of something that tipped them off to the MC incident immediately after the assassination. And so the Mexican Police arrested Sylvia Duran and others right away and interrogated them, thinking they were involved in the assassination. The CIA plotters weren't expecting this Mexican Police involvement and I believe that the findings of the Mexican interrogations are what tipped off the FBI that the stories they were hearing (about the $6500, etc.) weren't true. And so the U.S fighter jets were called back.

 

[Benjamin Cole]

4 hours ago, Matt Allison said:

Not the Mexico City trip that we're all familiar with, as Nagell was arrested on 9/20/63, when LHO was still in New Orleans.

Exactly. In general, I have reservations about Nagell.