Is It Time To Admit Failure? At Least To a Debatable Degree?

[Joe Bauer]

2 hours ago, Simon Andrew said:

If the assassination and all of the information had taken place in Russia and not the US, what do you think the conclusion from the average CIA analyst would be?

The research community should hold its head up high for doing the work that democratic institutions failed to do.

The Warren Commission was a travesty, which we know was cooked up under a false pretense. 

Yes SA.

Several of our response posters have enlightened us to the incredible effort so many independent researchers have gifted us in taking on the truth seeking job our MSM purposely neglected to do regards the JFKA.

A brave and even heroic effort actually. 

A tribute to American courage in seeking the truth when they feel they have been lied to.

I might even edit my original thread post to include this inspiring reflection.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Mart Hall]

As a 5/6 year newbie I’d strongly disagree it has been a failure, far from it. I very much doubt the creators of the JFKA expected it still to be an issue of such interest 60 years later. 

My own interest in the case is purely a result of the works of researchers, both past and present, and the efforts of Jim Garrison too. Collectively they have demonstrated that successive governments and their agencies have been hiding the full facts and have been deceiving the people, which as we know they are still doing to this day despite the 1993 JFK Act. 

With all the information we now have I think anyone who studies the case from an impartial starting point will not accept the official report and is more than likely to form a view that the JFKA involved employees and contractors from within the government’s agencies.

An obvious case can be made that the perpetrators weren’t held to account but this is the government of the most powerful country on the planet that everyone is up against, it is quite a feat to be where we are today in many respects. 

If the truth ever does come out I very much doubt we’ll discover that the names of the conspirators and the shooters were not already known to us, thanks to work of those parties I refer to. 

[Joe Bauer]

 

My original thread post title could have been better thought out I admit.

Reading the response postings has made me aware of the obvious; that a more succinct subject question should be something much more openly minded, nuanced and interpretive than a too narrow and restrictive "failure versus win" one.

You can't frame 60 years of the most monumentally unprecedented civilian truth seeking investigative effort contribution in American history so simply.

All brought about imo, by the outrageous failure of our government and it's compliant national MS media to provide our citizenry with anything close to logical truths that adequately addressed the ridiculously improbable and suspicious circumstances of the JFK and LHO murders.

That effort alone is clearly a victory of average citizen moral will and courage in standing up to the greatest ( Eisenhower MIC warning ) powers to be government we have had since that time.

We may not have had one person charged and convicted for the JFKA ( except for suspect LHO who was killed before he could go to trial ) and not one person similarly charged with aiding Jack Ruby in his killing of Oswald.

That is a depressing and frustrating reality, especially after 6 decades of monumental effort on the part of tens of thousands of courageous citizens to find and reveal the true responsible parties.

Yet, on the other hand, our official government investigation finding of two nuts who simply just got lucky as the only responsible parties to these world changing crimes has been soundly rejected by the majority of Americans for 60 years now ... 60 years!

That fact, the rejection of American governmental trust, respect and credibility among the majority of our society is also a historical reality.

The Warren Commission final report hugely failed in that context.

So, who failed? Who lost? 

Obviously, that question cannot be easily answered ( or answered at all ) in that context.

I do think however, that at this long period point of 60 years, it is time to give the JFKA research effort a reflective reality contemplation reboot.

Thanks to all responders. Lots of interesting sharing of views.

 

 

 

 

 

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Edited March 20, 2023 by Joe Bauer

[Paul Brancato]

I do hope we give RFK JR a little more listening. Our two political parties are corrupted.

[Joe Bauer]

4 minutes ago, Paul Brancato said:

I do hope we give RFK JR a little more listening. Our two political parties are corrupted.

Wouldn't that be refreshingly inspiring?

[Paul Brancato]

50 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:

Wouldn't that be refreshingly inspiring?

Surely. But the reaction here is depressing.

[Sandy Larsen]

This thread is for those who haven't figured out how JFK was killed, for what reason, and/or by whom.

Well I have good news for you all... there ARE some researchers who HAVE figured these things out. There is a ton of evidence available and it takes people who have the right mix of talents to connect the dots on circumstantial evidence in order to reconstruct the sequence of events. I've figured out much of it myself and am still making slow progress on the parts I haven't figured out.

For people without the talents I speak of, I will recommend a book written by a person who either has the talents himself, or who is a good judge of other researchers with those talents to be the source of his material.

The book you should read is JFK and the Unspeakable by James Douglass.

I haven't read the book myself, only some of the more thorough reviews. I can see from these reviews that the book has gotten it right. That is to say, that what he has discovered to be the facts, is the same as what I have discovered to be the facts.

What I haven't figured out so far is how the right-wing plot on Kennedy's life, that seems to be CIA connected, fits in with the faked communist plot that was definitely a CIA concoction. (The latter one being the one built around the Mexico City incident.) Since I haven't read Douglass's book, I don't know if he or some of his sources has figured that out either.

The reason I don't read Douglass's book is because I like to figure mysteries out for myself and then compare what I've found with what others have found. It's a hobby of mine.

 

[Paul Brancato]

10 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

This thread is for those who haven't figured out how JFK was killed, for what reason, and/or by whom.

Well I have good news for you all... there ARE some researchers who HAVE figured these things out. There is a ton of evidence available and it takes people who have the right mix of talents to connect the dots on circumstantial evidence in order to reconstruct the sequence of events. I've figured out much of it myself and am still making slow progress on the parts I haven't figured out.

For people without the talents i speak of, I will recommend a book written by a person who either has the talents himself, or who is a good judge of other researchers with those talents to be the source of his material.

The book you should read is JFK and the Unspeakable by James Douglass.

I haven't read the book myself, only some of the more thorough reviews. I can see from these reviews that the book has gotten it right. That is to say, that what he has discovered to be the facts, is the same as what I have discovered to be the facts.

What I haven't figured out so far is how the right-wing plot on Kennedy's life, that seems to be CIA connected, fits in with the faked communist plot that was definitely a CIA concoction. The one built around the Mexico City incident. Since I haven't read Douglass's book, I don't know if he or some of his sources has figured that out either.

The reason I don't read Douglass's book is because I like to figure mysteries out for myself and then compare what I've found with what others have found. It's a hobby of mine.

 

What? Sandy, your recommending a book you haven’t read? Well, ok, I accept your reasons. 
Did you know that RFK jr recommends it too? 

[Sandy Larsen]

7 minutes ago, Paul Brancato said:

What? Sandy, your recommending a book you haven’t read?

 

Only for for people like Joe who need to know that a great deal of progress HAS been made.

From the high ratings and comments for the book, I can see that it is well written, well reasoned, and well sourced.

 

7 minutes ago, Paul Brancato said:

Did you know that RFK jr recommends it too? 

 

I did not know that! I'd sure like to know how it came about that he read that particular book. And what other ones he's read.

 

[Paul Brancato]

4 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Only for for people like Joe who need to know that a great deal of progress HAS been made.

From the high ratings and comments for the book, I can see that it is well written, well reasoned, and well sourced.

 

 

I did not know that! I'd sure like to know how it came about that he read that particular book. And what other ones he's read.

 

He specifically recommended it on the Charlie Rose Dallas special that was never aired. I believe I read coverage of that event afterwards that mentioned the book and that he had previously recommended it. I’d like to know that too. 

[Ron Bulman]

1 hour ago, Paul Brancato said:

He specifically recommended it on the Charlie Rose Dallas special that was never aired. I believe I read coverage of that event afterwards that mentioned the book and that he had previously recommended it. I’d like to know that too. 

Paul, the Charlie Rose Dallas special was aired, at least in the FW/D area.  I saw it.  Then at some point not too long after it disappeared.  I've looked for it multiple times several years back.  Someone prove me wrong, please, but it's gone. 

 RFK Jr: 'Very convincing' evidence that JFK wasn't killed by lone gunman (nbcnews.com)

 

Edited March 21, 2023 by Ron Bulman

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

On 3/17/2023 at 4:19 AM, Joe Bauer said:

Are most of us still unsure about who killed JFK after 60 years?

If so, isn't that a very sad and disheartening reality?

That after 6 decades, hundreds if not thousands of lifetime long deep research efforts, books and millions of documents and two more seriously funded federal government investigations most of us are as unsure about who did JFK as we were the day after it's occurrence?

With that widely felt unsureness reality in mind one might rationally ponder the proposition, or at least the question, as to whether all this six decades long time and effort in the JFKA truth and justice seeking mission could in some debatable aspects and degrees be considered a failure.

And to add more weight to that postulation possibility is the reality that whoever did JFK ... got away with it!

That they were left to remain in their highest positions of power and influence all this time. Through three generations.

Up to now, JFK's killers have won. The American people lost.

After 60 years ... is it time to at least consider this reality?

I am sure. I explained who shot who etc (in Dealy Plaza) in late 2020 -- with a few minor upgrades up to mid 2022. 

Oswald shot-1 was at about pseudo Z113 (Holland says Z103) -- ricochet offa the overhead signal arm -- main slug makes a keyhole in floor of jfklimo -- 2 large metal jacket halves found in jfklimo -- lead splatter hits jfk on head (xrays).

Oswald shot-2 was at Z216 -- hits jfk & Connally at Z218-219.

Hickey's accidental autoburst of at least 4 shots at say Z300 to Z312 -- ricochet wounds Tague -- makes dent in chrome trim -- jfk's head explodes (remnant slug cracks windshield).

Re the peripheral verbiage that we can read re the jfk saga re the CIA FBI Johnson Mafia Cuba Castro & Co -- i have never wasted much time on any of that -- there might be some good stuff in there (but nothing that affects my above shots). 

Re the verbiage re a supposed hole in the windshield & re a supposed shooter behind the fence etc -- i have never wasted much time on any of that -- there aint any good stuff in there.

Yes -- the SS got away with it (the accidental homicide) -- yes, the American people lost.

Will the truth re the SS come out? -- i reckon that there will be an SS whistle-blower in the near future.

Edited March 21, 2023 by Marjan Rynkiewicz

[Pete Mellor]

2 hours ago, Marjan Rynkiewicz said:

Will the truth re the SS come out? -- i reckon that there will be an SS whistle-blower in the near future.

Don't hold your breath Marjan, it could be fatal.

[Joe Bauer]

Question:

How loud would the shots from Hickey's auto-burst gun have been?

Seriously, even if no one on the street heard these shots, wouldn't Hickey's car-mates have heard them including his boss in the front seat?

I would imagine such guns rapid fire bursts are not anywhere as loud as typical single shot bolt action rifles.

But they are not silenced either.

And is there absolutely no noticeable gun fire smoke smell from such a gun?

If Hickey's automatic gun accidentally went off with several rapid fire shots while it was facing in the direction of JFK's limo, what are the odds that just one of those hit JFK in the head, and no other shots hit the limo except in the way you described?

If one of those gun burst bullets hit the windshield from just 20 feet away, I would imagine it would have created much more pronounced damage to it than photos show.

Also, you would imagine perhaps one of those unintentional and uncontrolled aim bursts hitting the back of the limo. No bullet holes there correct?

I could see a massive cover-up taking place "if" the Hickey shooting scenario you describe were true.

And as remarkable as it would be, I could see every SS man that may have known the truth of the Hickey shooting taking that truth to their grave.

Wonder what our resident SS expert Vince Palamara has to say about a possible Hickey shooting of JFK.

 

 

 

 

[Michael Griffith]

On 3/16/2023 at 1:19 PM, Joe Bauer said:

Are most of us still unsure about who killed JFK after 60 years?

If so, isn't that a very sad and disheartening reality?

That after 6 decades, hundreds if not thousands of lifetime long deep research efforts, books and millions of documents and two more seriously funded federal government investigations most of us are as unsure about who did JFK as we were the day after it's occurrence?

With that widely felt unsureness reality in mind one might rationally ponder the proposition, or at least the question, as to whether all this six decades long time and effort in the JFKA truth and justice seeking mission could in some debatable aspects and degrees be considered a failure.

And to add more weight to that postulation possibility is the reality that whoever did JFK ... got away with it!

That they were left to remain in their highest positions of power and influence all this time. Through three generations.

Up to now, JFK's killers have won. The American people lost.

After 60 years ... is it time to at least consider this reality?

I disagree with much of this assessment. I'm not at all unsure about who killed JFK. I think it is clear that highly placed government figures were behind his death. I think it is beyond dispute that senior elements in the military, the FBI, the Secret Service, and the CIA engineered the cover-up, especially of the medical and photographic evidence. I think we have reached the point where we have enough evidence to convince any rational, objective person that the above statements are true.

And I'm not at all sure that the plotters wielded the power and influence they thought they would wield after JFK was gone. Consider:

If the plotters were motivated by extreme right-wing views, and surely most of them were, they should have prevented LBJ from choosing Humphrey as his VP.  If Cuba and Vietnam were two major motives of the plotters, they surely should have knocked off LBJ after he refused to allow JFK's scheduled December coup against Castro to proceed (even though Bobby asked him to do so), after LBJ made it clear he had no interest in overthrowing Castro, and after LBJ imposed unprecedented, ridiculous, and disastrous restrictions on our war effort in Vietnam, thereby dragging out the war when it could have been won in a matter of months. If racism was a major motive for at least some of the plotters, they surely should have taken out LBJ when it became clear he was serious about pushing through massive civil rights legislation. Etc., etc., etc.

Edited March 21, 2023 by Michael Griffith