Is It Time To Admit Failure? At Least To a Debatable Degree?

[Pat Speer]

8 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

Yeah, that's kind of what I thought Ben meant in his post. And it just goes to show how totally contradictory the various conspiracy theories are, because I've argued with many CTers over the years who believe that the shots from the sixth floor of the TSBD were really "diversionary" shots to draw the attention of witnesses to the place where the so-called "patsy" was located---which is the exact opposite of the rather silly and plot-blowing idea you just proposed of the shooters creating a fake "diversion" on the Knoll.

Why on Earth would anybody who was trying to frame Oswald as a lone assassin have any desire to want people to think shots came from the Grassy Knoll? That scenario makes zero sense.

What was the mindset of all these conspirators on Nov. 21, Matt & Ben? They're deliberately firing away from two separate directions....and yet they expected the authorities to declare only ONE assassin was doing the shooting from only the Depository? Crazy.

It sounds like a reprise of Oliver Stone's 3-gunmen, 1-patsy foolishness to me.

http://amazon.com / DVP Review / The Patsy Plot Is Just Idiotic

 

It's the same old argument, David. You make a gigantic assumption and then say it makes no sense for others to do other than you have assumed. 

The plotters may have wanted it to look like a plot. 

The investigators may have not wanted it to look like a plot. 

There may even have been a double-cross, as in "We want it to look like there were two shooters, agreed?" "Uh, no, I've changed my mind about that--we need people to think it was just this one looney, sorry."

Problem solved. Over and over again. We don't know and will probably never know. 

[Benjamin Cole]

31 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

Yeah, that's kind of what I thought Ben meant in his post. And it just goes to show how totally contradictory the various conspiracy theories are, because I've argued with many CTers over the years who believe that the shots from the sixth floor of the TSBD were really "diversionary" shots to draw the attention of witnesses to the place where the so-called "patsy" was located---which is the exact opposite of the rather silly and plot-blowing idea you just proposed of the shooters creating a fake "diversion" on the Knoll.

Why on Earth would anybody who was trying to frame Oswald as a lone assassin have any desire to want people to think shots came from the Grassy Knoll? That scenario makes zero sense.

What was the mindset of all these conspirators on Nov. 21, Matt & Ben? They're deliberately firing away from two separate directions....and yet they expected the authorities to declare only ONE assassin was doing the shooting from only the Depository? Crazy.

It sounds like a reprise of Oliver Stone's 3-gunmen, 1-patsy foolishness to me.

http://amazon.com / DVP Review / The Patsy Plot Is Just Idiotic

 

David--

I am not sure who was involved in the JFKA. 

My take is JBC was shot at ~Z-295, and JFK at Z-313. I have explained my reasons for that. That rules out a lone gunsel armed with a single-shot bolt-action rifle. 

DPD officer Joe Smith smelled gunsmoke and encountered a man flashing a Secret Service credential in the GK area, in the immediate aftermath of the JFKA. So did Seymour Weitzman, Dallas Sheriff. Seems solid, no? 

The HSCA concluded the JFKA was likely the result of a conspiracy. OK, the HSCA was not staffed by a bunch of nuts. 

So, it is not nutty to suspect a conspiracy in the JFKA.

Can I reveal to you the exact nature of the conspiracy? No, the official investigation in 1964 was deficient in that regard. My take is the WC was an expedient result---and that result was overturned by the later official investigation, the HSCA.

I wish I did know exactly who perped 11/22. I am only confident that a lone gunman, armed with a single-shot bolt-action rifle, was not the only participant in that day's event.

 

[David Von Pein]

42 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

You make a gigantic assumption...

IMO, the main "gigantic assumption" being made around here is that there was any conspiracy at all.

 

Edited March 17, 2023 by David Von Pein

[Steven Kossor]

Hargis wasn't going fast enough to "drive into" the gore that hit him so hard in the face that he wondered if he had been hit himself by a shot.  He wasn't facing toward the DBDB when this happened.  There are dozens of facts like this that are dispositive proof that the "lone assassin" story is a concoction.  The perpetrators were smart, but they left bits of evidence that have been overlooked, misconstrued and/or misunderstood for 60 years.  Sometimes it seems, intentionally.

[Michael Crane]

The CIA's MKULTRA has done a fascinating job of programming Mr. Von Pein into dismissing evidence & toeing the establishment line.

Edited March 17, 2023 by Michael Crane

[Ron Bulman]

On 3/16/2023 at 12:19 PM, Joe Bauer said:

Are most of us still unsure about who killed JFK after 60 years?

If so, isn't that a very sad and disheartening reality?

That after 6 decades, hundreds if not thousands of lifetime long deep research efforts, books and millions of documents and two more seriously funded federal government investigations most of us are as unsure about who did JFK as we were the day after it's occurrence?

With that widely felt unsureness reality in mind one might rationally ponder the proposition, or at least the question, as to whether all this six decades long time and effort in the JFKA truth and justice seeking mission could in some debatable aspects and degrees be considered a failure.

And to add more weight to that postulation possibility is the reality that whoever did JFK ... got away with it!

That they were left to remain in their highest positions of power and influence all this time. Through three generations.

Up to now, JFK's killers have won. The American people lost.

After 60 years ... is it time to at least consider this reality?

No, Joe, the efforts of the research community have not been a failure, anything but, their efforts have kept the issue of searching for the Truth alive in the court of public opinion.  JFK's killers, with his public execution, won greater control of our government but still have not snuffed out his ideals and goals.

The last I read over 60% of us still do not believe LHO acted alone.  Lone Nut WC SBT, silenced by Ruby still doesn't pass the logic test for the majority of US citizens.  Thus, they believe it was a conspiracy.  In spite of what our government and the M$M tells us.  The work of so many independent researchers has overwhelmed the official story and kept the search alive, thankfully.

It has reached a point where a conspiracy is an accepted fact, based on overwhelming documentation accumulated over now near 60 years.  And more keeps coming every year.

Just in the last couple of years we have,

Jim Di Eugenio and Oliver Sone's documentaries JFJ Revisited, Through The Looking Glass and Destiny Betrayed along with the book.

Larry Hancock's  Tipping Point: The Conspiracy that Murdered President John Kennedy: Hancock, Larry: 9781736440902: Amazon.com: Books

Joseph Mc Bride's Political Truth: The Media and the Assassination of President Kennedy: Joseph McBride: 9781939795618: Amazon.com: Books

Monika Wiesak's Amazon.com: America's Last President: What the World Lost When It Lost John F. Kennedy: 9798986556802: Wiesak, Monika: Books

 

[Joe Bauer]

3 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

The last I read over 60% of us still do not believe LHO acted alone.  Lone Nut WC SBT, silenced by Ruby still doesn't pass the logic test for the majority of US citizens.  Thus, they believe it was a conspiracy.  In spite of what our government and the M$M tells us.  The work of so many independent researchers has overwhelmed the official story and kept the search alive, thankfully.

Yes. What you say above is true.

Yet, still, the fact is that after "6 decades" no one has identified JFK's killers and no one has been charged and punished for it.

In that sense, JFKA truth and justice seekers must admit that JFK's killers have gotten away with this crime ... for 60 years now!

That's not a victory in solving the case unless you accept the final conclusion findings of the Warren Commission.

 

 

[Joe Bauer]

Perhaps it is a victory that the massive work, time and effort of tens of thousands of researchers and seekers of the JFKA truth has kept the majority of Americans from accepting the Warren Commission finding of LHO being the one and only guilty party without help ... for 60 years?

That the "losing effort" is as much that of the Warren Commission failing to convince the clear majority of the American public of their LN finding ...even after all that time?

60 years of societal majority felt mistrust of our government is not "a win."

So, could this issue also be framed as a no winner, no loser "stalemate?"

My original thread point was to bring this dark society wrenching dichotomy into the open for discussion and debate.

One positive society benefitting fact throughout these last 60 years regards the massive research truth seeking effort into the JFKA and LHOA is how much it has helped to enlightened us all with revelations about so many other areas of dark power at our highest levels of governing and control...that we might never had been made aware of otherwise.

One result of this revelatory knowledge is a good percentage of our society does not just blindly believe and trust everything our power leaders tell us...all the time.

That questioning caution of great power is absolutely important in a democracy, especially ours, yes?

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 19, 2023 by Joe Bauer

[Paul Brancato]

Joe - an important thread, one that begs responses. There has been a massive failure by our government and our media to press for answers. Researchers have been on the defensive for the most part, trying only to prove that the official story is wrong, that there could not have been a lone gunman. Very little research has attempted to answer the most important question - if Oswald was innocent, or part of a team, who were the perps? We know in great detail who wanted JFK out of the picture. We know most everything on could know about the life of the ‘patsy’. We don’t know who conspired to kill the President. 
The biggest failure is being unable to get the MSM to fight for truth. 

[Joe Bauer]

1 hour ago, Paul Brancato said:

Joe - an important thread, one that begs responses. There has been a massive failure by our government and our media to press for answers.

Researchers have been on the defensive for the most part, trying only to prove that the official story is wrong, that there could not have been a lone gunman.

Very little research has attempted to answer the most important question - if Oswald was innocent, or part of a team, who were the perps? We know in great detail who wanted JFK out of the picture. We know most everything on could know about the life of the ‘patsy’. We don’t know who conspired to kill the President. 
The biggest failure is being unable to get the MSM to fight for truth. 

So well articulated Paul.

We need to come to terms with the JFKA and our contemplation/understanding of it's direction, impact and place in our minds 60 long years after it's occurrence in new ways now imo.

As you state, part of doing so is acknowledging and facing the huge impact failures of our MSM in responsibly seeking the JFKA truth.

As our very own Joseph McBride has been illuminating so well.

Looking back upon Eisenhower's famous leaving office Military, Industrial , Corporate unchecked influence and confluence speech, it should have included the extra massive influence entity of our MSM.

IMO anyways.

 

 

Edited March 19, 2023 by Joe Bauer

[Leslie Sharp]

3 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

Joe - an important thread, one that begs responses. There has been a massive failure by our government and our media to press for answers. Researchers have been on the defensive for the most part, trying only to prove that the official story is wrong, that there could not have been a lone gunman. Very little research has attempted to answer the most important question - if Oswald was innocent, or part of a team, who were the perps? We know in great detail who wanted JFK out of the picture. We know most everything on could know about the life of the ‘patsy’. We don’t know who conspired to kill the President. 
The biggest failure is being unable to get the MSM to fight for truth. 

 if Oswald was innocent, or part of a team, who were the perps?

Well said, Paul. After 6 decades, we know almost as much about the life of Lee Harvey Oswald as that of John F. Kennedy.  This is proof positive that the schemers chose the "perfect patsy" - one whose short life would be so compelling, researchers and authors would be distracted from looking for those who fired the shots, those who paid the shooters and then protected them, and those who made the decision to permanently remove the democratically elected president.  

The cottage industry that sprung up around Oswald is a significant aspect of the failure you speak of. Too many for too long were reticent to kill the golden goose.

Respected authors within this community each have editors and publishers with access to print and broadcast media that reaches mainstream America. Have they applied pressure? 

Edited March 19, 2023 by Leslie Sharp

[Ron Bulman]

12 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

The biggest failure is being unable to get the MSM to fight for truth. 

They can't fight for the truth.  95, 98% of the M$M is owned by 1-2-5% of the wealth holders in the US.  They can only report what their owners allow them to, if they want to keep their jobs.

The Truth can only come from within so to speak.  With limited options to spread it.  Though in this day and age there are many more such ways than in years gone past.  It keeps happening in small increments day by day.  I think history will eventually absolve us as critics of the official story, though likely well after most of us are gone.

Political Truth: The Media and the Assassination of President Kennedy: Joseph McBride: 9781939795618: Amazon.com: Books

Edited March 20, 2023 by Ron Bulman

[Bill Brown]

12 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

Joe - an important thread, one that begs responses. There has been a massive failure by our government and our media to press for answers. Researchers have been on the defensive for the most part, trying only to prove that the official story is wrong, that there could not have been a lone gunman. Very little research has attempted to answer the most important question - if Oswald was innocent, or part of a team, who were the perps? We know in great detail who wanted JFK out of the picture. We know most everything on could know about the life of the ‘patsy’. We don’t know who conspired to kill the President. 
The biggest failure is being unable to get the MSM to fight for truth. 

 

"We know in great detail who wanted JFK out of the picture."

 

Every single presidency has those who want the current Commander In Chief out of the picture.  But, it means nothing and certainly isn't proof of anything.

 

[Simon Andrew]

If the assassination and all of the information had taken place in Russia and not the US, what do you think the conclusion from the average CIA analyst would be?

The research community should hold its head up high for doing the work that democratic institutions failed to do.

The Warren Commission was a travesty, which we know was cooked up under a false pretence. 

[Benjamin Cole]

24 minutes ago, Simon Andrew said:

If the assassination and all of the information had taken place in Russia and not the US, what do you think the conclusion from the average CIA analyst would be?

The research community should hold its head up high for doing the work that democratic institutions failed to do.

The Warren Commission was a travesty, which we know was cooked up under a false pretence. 

Right--and add on, the second official investigation, the HSCA, concluded it was likely there had been a conspiracy to murder JFK. 

So...given the HSCA conclusion, under the very cautious and circumspect Robert Blakey, anyone is certainly justified for not accepting the LN theory.