Marina Oswald

[David Von Pein]

1 hour ago, Lawrence Schnapf said:

In addition, terms like "informant", "employee" or "agent" have very different meanings so you need to make sure that you guys are talking about the same role of a particular person.  Moore clearly was an employee of the CIA .  I suggest you guys "describe" the relationship you think DeMohrenschildt had with the CIA instead of using one of those commonly misunderstood terms.  Then see if that relationship falls in or outside the statement Bugliosi was making.--IMHO  

FYI / FWIW....

Here's another excerpt from Vince Bugliosi's book regarding George DeMohrenschildt, the CIA, and J. Walton Moore (who, btw, is also referred to by Bugliosi as Walter Moore; and both DeMohrenschildt and Albert Jenner refer to him as Walter Moore during DeMohrenschildt's WC session [at 9 H 235])....

Click to enlarge:

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Related Link:

http://DVP's JFK Archives / George DeMohrenschildt's Suicide

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Edited April 18, 2023 by David Von Pein

[Pat Speer]

43 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

FYI / FWIW....

Here's another excerpt from Vince Bugliosi's book regarding George DeMohrenschildt, the CIA, and J. Walton Moore (who, btw, is also referred to by Bugliosi as Walter Moore; and both DeMohrenschildt and Albert Jenner refer to him as Walter Moore during DeMohrenschildt's WC session [at 9 H 235])....

Click to enlarge:

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Related Link:

http://DVP's JFK Archives / George DeMohrenschildt's Suicide

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It's all beside the point, David. Whether or not YOU think DeMohrenschildt talked to Moore about Oswald, or whether or not Bugliosi's research supported as much, has absolutely nothing to do with the point I was making... To be clear that point is that, by the time Marina changed her opinion about her husband's guilt, she would almost certainly have heard a number of things--true or not--such as DeMohrenschildt's discussing Lee with the CIA--that would lead her to believe there was more to it than Lee acting alone. 

You indicated she was swayed by conspiracy theorists, when the reality is that the historical record (which Bugliosi claimed to love) had received a number of additions between early 1964 and the early 1980's that would lead many to re-appraise Oswald's guilt, or at least his sole guilt. Marina was one of them. 

[David Von Pein]

36 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

To be clear that point is that, by the time Marina changed her opinion about her husband's guilt, she would almost certainly have heard a number of things--true or not--such as DeMohrenschildt's discussing Lee with the CIA--that would lead her to believe there was more to it than Lee acting alone. 

You indicated she was swayed by conspiracy theorists, when the reality is that the historical record (which Bugliosi claimed to love) had received a number of additions between early 1964 and the early 1980's that would lead many to re-appraise Oswald's guilt, or at least his sole guilt. Marina was one of them. 

Thanks, Pat.

Point taken.

 

[Pamela Brown]

On 4/17/2023 at 10:38 AM, David Von Pein said:

David Von Pein said:

 

You think Marina's testimony was the sole basis for the WC finding LHO guilty of two murders? Come now. Let's not forget about the dozens of other things pointing to Lee Oswald's guilt, outlined here:

 

I think the WCR was created around her testimony, and when she recanted, it collapsed like a house of cards...

[Pamela Brown]

On 4/17/2023 at 12:03 PM, Jonathan Cohen said:

I find your interpretation of these events to be highly illogical. Although his behavior was erratic, Oswald was not trying to "distance himself" from his wife. If anything, he was doing whatever he could to find work and support his family, as evidenced by Marina having joined him in New Orleans as soon as he got a job there.

He went to NOLA to go under the radar with the Dallas FBI after the Walker incident.  

He didn't bother to tell Marina when he was fired from Reily Coffee.

He sent Marina with Ruth while he went to Mexico City so he wouldn't have to pay to take care of her.

I don't see these things as indicative of his making supporting Marina a top priority. 

[Jonathan Cohen]

33 minutes ago, Pamela Brown said:

He went to NOLA to go under the radar with the Dallas FBI after the Walker incident. 

He may have said this was his reason for going to New Orleans, but is there any actual evidence that it was?

33 minutes ago, Pamela Brown said:

He didn't bother to tell Marina when he was fired from Reily Coffee.

Marina was (rightfully) hard on Lee for his inability to hold a job and support his family. If you were Lee, would you skip home and admit you'd been fired yet again?

33 minutes ago, Pamela Brown said:

He sent Marina with Ruth while he went to Mexico City so he wouldn't have to pay to take care of her.

Again, I am not aware of any actual evidence to support this claim.

[David Von Pein]

1 hour ago, Pamela Brown said:

I think the WCR was created around her [Marina Oswald's] testimony, and when she recanted, it collapsed like a house of cards.

That's absolute nonsense, Pam.

If we were to completely eliminate and disregard all of Marina's testimony, Lee Oswald's guilt would still be ironclad in both the JFK and Tippit murder cases (based on the available evidence).

 

Edited April 20, 2023 by David Von Pein

[Charles Blackmon]

9 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

That's absolute nonsense, Pam.

If we were to completely eliminate and disregard all of Marina's testimony, Lee Oswald's guilt would still be ironclad in both the JFK and Tippit murder cases (based on the available evidence).

 

David does that evidence explain how Oswald could be in one location shooting Tippit while at the same time he was seen in the Texas Theater? I have yet to see a timeline explaining this discrepancy.

[Pete Mellor]

On 4/6/2023 at 9:25 PM, Bob Ness said:

I get what you're saying Gerry but I've grown quite skeptical of the "Beaver Cleaver" innocent 50's style justification given by State. Possibly that was it. But that doesn't exclude potential shenanigans by the CIA or KGB involving someone who certainly looks like a sparrow to me. Spy games get so convoluted it's hard to say what their motivations could be. The Soviets could very easily have been aware of Oswald being a (possible) dangle, or at least suspect it, and rig him up with an attractive companion. That kind of talent isn't difficult to task to other targets either (consider Anna Chapman or Maria Butina). Trust me it wouldn't be a first. 

That may not be the case but if it were the case, that's what it would look like, roughly.

Is it rolling Bob?

According to senior staff officers from the Minsk KGB Counterintelligence School & Department 1 of the 2nd Chief Directorate H.Q., ex-marine Lee Harvey Oswald was an agent of the KGB, and was one before he met his future wife, Marina.  The Minsk Ukrainian KGB had recruited Marina as a 'swallow' (Soviet female prostitute) for use in sexual entrapment operations.  Marina was directed against Oswald, who fell in love with her, when he was living in Minsk.       (CIA Counterintelligence Information Report. RIF: 104-10014-10056.)

 

[Pete Mellor]

On 4/14/2023 at 4:05 PM, Pamela Brown said:

James Hosty told me that if there was a spy in the family, it was Marina.  I agree with that...

Nah Pam, not so.  Back In the U.S.S.R., the Ukraine girls really knock me out, they leave the West behind.  Marina was a prostitute for KGB, she was directed to Oswald, who fell in love and married her.  She was a reluctant spy for Minsk KGB to report on the American defector.  It is apparent that she hit on Robert Webster too.  Even though Lee & Marina had KGB links in Minsk, both severed these links on their arrival in U.S.  Lee had completed his 'dangle' and Marina wanted out of the poverty. 

[David Von Pein]

19 hours ago, Charles Blackmon said:

David does that evidence explain how Oswald could be in one location shooting Tippit while at the same time he was seen in the Texas Theater? I have yet to see a timeline explaining this discrepancy.

If you can't figure that one out, Charles, I feel sorry for you. That's an easy one.

 

[Sean Coleman]

Yes Charles, it’s EASY to figure out……

Markham + Benavides x (Burroughs - Haire)   = popcorn. 
Popcorn + balcony sq.root = jacket (to the power of Oswald didn’t own it)      

Now this is the tricky bit some people can’t comprehend….                 
DPD x Bugliosi - Posner / WC = 0 !!!!!!!

Yes I graduated from the Monty Python school of maths.

 

[David Von Pein]

1 hour ago, Sean Coleman said:

Markham + Benavides x (Burroughs - Haire) = popcorn. 
Popcorn + balcony sq.root = jacket (to the power of Oswald didn’t own it).    

Now this is the tricky bit some people can’t comprehend….                 
DPD x Bugliosi - Posner / WC = 0 !!!!!!!

The more accurate equation is this one:

Oswald + Revolver that killed Tippit being in Oswald's own hands 35 minutes after Tippit was killed with that same revolver = No way for Oswald to be innocent of shooting Tippit ..... UNLESS.

 

Edited April 21, 2023 by David Von Pein

[Sean Coleman]

Touché.

However….. 3 x WW + 1 x RP does not equal 2 x WW + 2 x RP. 
 

ps. Slugs & shells

pps. not the garden types

 

Edited April 21, 2023 by Sean Coleman

[Charles Blackmon]

1 hour ago, David Von Pein said:

The more accurate equation is this one:

Oswald + Revolver that killed Tippit being in Oswald's own hands 35 minutes after Tippit was killed with that same revolver = No way for Oswald to be innocent of shooting Tippit ..... UNLESS.

 

The FBI could not identify the bullets retrieved from Tippit as being fired from the Oswald handgun to the exclusion of all other firearms.