Marina Oswald

[Gerry Down]

47 minutes ago, Lawrence Schnapf said:

Dulles made a point in the WC depositions of McCone and Helms to put distance between the State Department and CIA. State could have intervened for their own agenda. No one should presume these agencies were coordinating or even informing each other of their covert activities. Reality is not that simple. And then there is the lack of cooperation by State with the JFK Records Act.  

Why do you think Dulles was eager to put distance between the State Department and the CIA?

[Steve Thomas]

3 hours ago, Gerry Down said:

Wasn't Robert Webster involved in some type of plastics?

Gerry,

In my notes to myself, I had, "Wasn't there a guy before Lee Oswald, (Robert Webster) and wasn't he connected to plastics - and specifically to spray nozzles?"

I don't remember why, it must have had something to with the delivery mechanism.

Steve Thomas

[Gerry Down]

10 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said:

Gerry,

In my notes to myself, I had, "Wasn't there a guy before Lee Oswald, (Robert Webster) and wasn't he connected to plastics - and specifically to spray nozzles?"

I don't remember why, it must have had something to with the delivery mechanism.

Steve Thomas

That was the whole reason he was in the USSR. He was a representative for some plastics company and that is why the Russians wanted to recruit him.

[Jonathan Cohen]

2 hours ago, Lawrence Schnapf said:

LHO may not have been on a "hidden intelligence mission" as traditionally understood. His defection could have been simply to test the response of the Soviets and also perhaps be some ploy by Angleton to find the suspected mole. LHO's file was in a special location so anyone looking for it would have been flagged. 

While this is theoretically possible... if it were true, I find little to no evidence that Oswald was aware he was being used in this fashion. His behavior in Russia is completely consistent with a young, idealistic man way over his head in a foreign country, who eventually realized that country was no better than the one from which he came -- thus his return.

[Charles Blackmon]

7 minutes ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

While this is theoretically possible... if it were true, I find little to no evidence that Oswald was aware he was being used in this fashion. His behavior in Russia is completely consistent with a young, idealistic man way over his head in a foreign country, who eventually realized that country was no better than the one from which he came -- thus his return.

How would Oswald have behaved in former U.S.S.R. (not Russia) if he had not been young, idealistic and in "way over his head"? I don't think this argument in any way shows it to be unlikely that he was being used by intelligence. 

[Jonathan Cohen]

17 minutes ago, Charles Blackmon said:

How would Oswald have behaved in former U.S.S.R. (not Russia) if he had not been young, idealistic and in "way over his head"? I don't think this argument in any way shows it to be unlikely that he was being used by intelligence. 

I'm not saying it's impossible that he was used by intelligence. I'm saying that if he was, I see little to no evidence he was AWARE he was being used. He certainly wasn't in on the plan or in cahoots with the U.S. government from the beginning ...

Edited April 7, 2023 by Jonathan Cohen

[John Cotter]

3 hours ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

While this is theoretically possible... if it were true, I find little to no evidence that Oswald was aware he was being used in this fashion. His behavior in Russia is completely consistent with a young, idealistic man way over his head in a foreign country, who eventually realized that country was no better than the one from which he came -- thus his return.

Jonathan argues that because, "[Oswald's] behavior in Russia is completely consistent with a young, idealistic man way over his head in a foreign country...", Oswald was not on a secret intelligence mission.

This is a kind of fallacious argument often made by lone nut proponents.

The obvious flaw here of course is that if Oswald was in fact on a secret intelligence mission, the behaviour described by Jonathan might be just the kind of pretence Oswald would adopt to mask his true role.

Edited April 7, 2023 by John Cotter

[Pete Mellor]

On 4/6/2023 at 11:58 PM, Pete Mellor said:

I realise this quote is from Edward Epstein's 'Legend' & I'm not a great fan of this author, but, interesting passage:-

@Through its mail intercept programme which monitored letters sent from the Soviet Union to selected cities in the U.S., the CIA received further information about the Oswalds during the summer of '62.  Even return addresses provided clues.  For example, a letter sent to Marina from Ella Soboleva in Leningrad was subsequently traced from the return address on the envelope to the home of Igor Pavel Sobolev, whose name corresponded in the CIA computer to that of a suspected agent of the First Chief Directorate of the KGB who had been stationed in Vienna up to 1961. The question of whether this was an innocuous letter from the daughter of Sobolev or some confusion of names could not be determined by the CIA's tracing system.

 

 

As an interesting addition to my own post above, there is a snippet contained in Bill Simpich's 'The Twelve Who Built the Oswald Legend' held on the MFF website that states Webster was involved in a 'honey strap' by a women named Ella.  Would be interesting to learn if her surname was Soboleva.

Also, I think, if memory serves, that Webster was interviewed sometime in the 90's by Dick Russell who told him that when he met with Marina in Leningrad that she spoke English!

A Wilderness of Women.

[Gerry Down]

29 minutes ago, Pete Mellor said:

As an interesting addition to my own post above, there is a snippet contained in Bill Simpich's 'The Twelve Who Built the Oswald Legend' held on the MFF website that states Webster was involved in a 'honey strap' by a women named Ella.  Would be interesting to learn if her surname was Soboleva.

Also, I think, if memory serves, that Webster was interviewed sometime in the 90's by Dick Russell who told him that when he met with Marina in Leningrad that she spoke English!

A Wilderness of Women.

Has Marina admitted to meeting Webster?

[Pete Mellor]

19 hours ago, Gerry Down said:

Has Marina admitted to meeting Webster?

Gerry, Dealey Plaza U.K. were holding a discussion some time back to suggest who we should get hold of for a Zoom session.  My input was that the single most interesting person to question in the whole JFKA case would be Marina.  Alas, not much chance of that coming off!  So many questions, of her time in USSR alone, would be fascinating to know answers.  Sadly, it's late in the day.  Her health is poor.  I reckon all these mysteries will remain.  As for Webster, I don't see any reason for him to invent this claim.  Also, she is supposed to have had Webster's Leningrad address in her notebook.

[Gerry Down]

13 minutes ago, Pete Mellor said:

As for Webster, I don't see any reason for him to invent this claim.  Also, she is supposed to have had Webster's Leningrad address in her notebook.

Its just so many people make up things in the JFK case you never really can know for sure. 

[Pete Mellor]

11 minutes ago, Gerry Down said:

Its just so many people make up things in the JFK case you never really can know for sure. 

Agree. JFKA can really be a can of worms!

Suggest having a read of this:- State Secret Chapter1 (maryferrell.org):-by Bill Simpich.

It covers the Marina/Webster link.

[Gerry Down]

1 hour ago, Pete Mellor said:

Agree. JFKA can really be a can of worms!

Suggest having a read of this:- State Secret Chapter1 (maryferrell.org):-by Bill Simpich.

It covers the Marina/Webster link.

Thanks.

[James DiEugenio]

There is some very interesting stuff on this in Newman's new book on the Popov case.

Paul Bleau will be reviewing that for K and K.

[Pete Mellor]

16 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

There is some very interesting stuff on this in Newman's new book on the Popov case.

Paul Bleau will be reviewing that for K and K.

I have this on order Jim.  I assume you have read this.  In many previous publications i.e. Morley, Mangold, Weiner etc., all state that Angleton's mole hunt was fruitless.  Veteran Case Officer George Kisevalter said, "Had there been a real 'Sasha', he could not have done as much damage to the clandestine services group as this phantom 'Sasha'." Also, three subsequent reviews by senior CIA officers reached the same conclusion.  So too did Cleveland Cram, the senior officer who wrote a still classified multi-volume study of Angleton's operations.  (The Ghost-Jefferson Morley)

Reading Amazon's review:-However, Newman's work makes clear how the mole in the Security Office defected attention from himself by convincing the chief of CIA counterintelligence, James Angleton, that Oswald could be used as bait to find the mole working in CIA's Soviet Russia Division. Furthermore, Uncovering Popov's Mole shows how Angleton unknowingly provided all of the Agency's sensitive secrets to the mole in the Office of Security--as he had previously to Kim Philby.

So, John Newman, it appears, has stunning new evidence that Angleton's long held belief in a mole high in CIA was legit.

I have heard Malcolm Blunt speak of Bruce Solie being a suspect.

Is this who Newman fingers in the book?  Or do I have to wait for the Amazon delivery?