Prayer Man More Than A Fuzzy Picture

[Roger Odisio]

26 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

Let's review. The Stroud memo is a memo noting that Vickie Adams has reviewed and signed her testimony. The memo then notes that she talked to Peggy Ann Garner who supported Adams' testimony. Well, there is a transcript in the archives and available online that reflects the changes described by Stroud that bears Adams' signature. 

It is bizarre, IMO, to hold that the signed transcript, with the changes described by Stroud, is a fake. The Stroud memo specifies that Adams signed the transcript. If one is to hold the first part of this memo is a fake, one should acknowledge that the second part--the problematic discussion of Garner--was included in a fake memo for no reason and in opposition to the supposed purpose of the memo. As it stands, Garner later confirmed what she'd told Stroud. So we have every reason to believe the memo is legit. 

As far as Adams, it should not be surprising to the members of this forum--most of whom are 50+--that a lot of people young and old deny saying or doing things that brought them grief. I know of a woman--a smoker back in the 60's--who accidentally set her kid's hair on fire while stretching her arm. For years she acknowledged it, and expressed remorse, but she later took to saying it was just a story told by her kid to get attention. That's what people do, as often as not. They filter their memories. Thus, we have seniors saying they never said stuff, or never handled specific pieces of evidence, etc. Well, sad to say, their latter-day denials just aren't reliable. 

 

You may be getting a bit punchy, Pat, with all the detail.  Peggy Ann Garner was a movie star.  We're talking about Dorothy Garner.

Also, by the Stroud "memo" I assume you mean the registered letter Stroud sent to Rankin on June 2, 1964.

There is nothing problematic about the part of the letter in which Stroud discusses what Garner had told her that morning. And the reason Stroud included it is clear.

Garner had told Stroud that she had remained on the 4th floor and was still there when Truly and a cop came up. Stroud prefaced this remark with its context.  "Mr. Belin was questioning Miss Adams about whether she had seen anyone as she was running down the stairs".  Garner was another witness whom they had ignored. We know why and I'm guessing Stroud did too.  Garner had not seen or heard Oswald, as she later confirmed to Ernest, as you indicated.. 

It's likely Stroud sent the letter by registered mail to try to ensure it got to Rankin (he would have had to sign for it).  Adams told Ernest that on the day of the murder she went home and wrote a six page summary of what had happened. She sent it to a man who had been kind of a mentor to her.  He never got it.

Stroud's letter about what Garner told her was very important information.  Oswald didn't come down those steps as the WR said he did, and the second floor encounter with Truly and the cop was most likely fabricated.

Yes, the Stroud letter is legit. But the first part, forwarding Adams corrections and her signature, tells us nothing about the legitimacy of the language in the testimony that Adams saw Shelley and Lovelady upon reaching the first floor. There was plenty of time for those SOBs running the "investigation" to add it later.

 

[Pat Speer]

7 hours ago, Roger Odisio said:

You may be getting a bit punchy, Pat, with all the detail.  Peggy Ann Garner was a movie star.  We're talking about Dorothy Garner.

Also, by the Stroud "memo" I assume you mean the registered letter Stroud sent to Rankin on June 2, 1964.

There is nothing problematic about the part of the letter in which Stroud discusses what Garner had told her that morning. And the reason Stroud included it is clear.

Garner had told Stroud that she had remained on the 4th floor and was still there when Truly and a cop came up. Stroud prefaced this remark with its context.  "Mr. Belin was questioning Miss Adams about whether she had seen anyone as she was running down the stairs".  Garner was another witness whom they had ignored. We know why and I'm guessing Stroud did too.  Garner had not seen or heard Oswald, as she later confirmed to Ernest, as you indicated.. 

It's likely Stroud sent the letter by registered mail to try to ensure it got to Rankin (he would have had to sign for it).  Adams told Ernest that on the day of the murder she went home and wrote a six page summary of what had happened. She sent it to a man who had been kind of a mentor to her.  He never got it.

Stroud's letter about what Garner told her was very important information.  Oswald didn't come down those steps as the WR said he did, and the second floor encounter with Truly and the cop was most likely fabricated.

Yes, the Stroud letter is legit. But the first part, forwarding Adams corrections and her signature, tells us nothing about the legitimacy of the language in the testimony that Adams saw Shelley and Lovelady upon reaching the first floor. There was plenty of time for those SOBs running the "investigation" to add it later.

 

You are correct of course: Dorothy Ann Garner not Peggy Ann Garner. As far as the transcript, my (quite possibly faulty) memory is that Adams told Ernest she'd never signed any transcript. Is it your contention that her signature is legit but the bits about Shelley have been added in, and that other stuff was removed so that Stroud's notes about what was changed and where would still be accurate? 

If so, that would have been an awful lot of work, and unnecessary work at that--when one considers they could have just thrown Stroud's letter in the trash. 

Edited August 13, 2023 by Pat Speer

[Roger Odisio]

15 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

You are correct of course: Dorothy Ann Garner not Peggy Ann Garner. As far as the transcript, my (quite possibly faulty) memory is that Adams told Ernest she'd never signed any transcript. Is it your contention that her signature is legit but the bits about Shelley have been added in, and that other stuff was removed so that Stroud's notes about what was changed and where would still be accurate? 

If so, that would have been an awful lot of work, and unnecessary work at that--when one considers they could have just thrown Stroud's letter in the trash. 

The question of whether Adams signed her testimony after reading it and made some minor changes to it is a bit complicated, according to Ernest.  He says there now exists two copies of Adams' testimony at NARA.  The original had no signature from Adams. It also included a statement that Adams declined the opportunity to review her testimony, which the Stroud letter showed was another falsehood.  A later one that he says appeared after the self published version of his book came out, did have Adams' signature and her corrections in ink which supports the Stroud letter.  He says the wording in the testimony was identical in each.

Adams' changes that Stroud sent to Rankin were extremely minor and a bit garbled.  I've never paid attention to them.  Here they are:

"page 59 line 19 changed to "service"; page 59 line 20 add "and"; page 60 line18 to "Martin"; page 64, line 24 to "there"; page75 line 5 add "and"; page 79 line4 to "officiously"

They did hide Stroud's letter until Ernest found it in 1999 thanks to the JFK Records Act.

[Roger Odisio]

On 8/11/2023 at 8:46 PM, Pat Speer said:

Here's an excerpt from Chapter 4: Pinning the Tale on the Oswald

 

Well, what are the odds? A woman claims she saw two men together at a specific place and time. They admit to being at that place, but one thinks he was at that place a bit later, and isn't completely sure she was the woman he saw when he was at that place, and the other thinks he was at that place a bit later, and remembers seeing the woman, but thinks maybe he saw her a bit later on a different floor entirely, when he wasn't with the other man.

Well, it should be readily apparent that she was right and they were wrong. Or, if not, that a little bit of thinking and/or digging could have resolved this conflict.

I mean, Lovelady remembered there being a woman when he came in the building. Well, was any effort made to identify this woman? No, of course not, because a study of the witness statements makes it pretty freakin' clear no women outside of Adams and Styles were by the back entrance of the depository in the minutes after the shooting.

And Shelley thought maybe he talked to Adams on the fourth floor. Well, was any effort made to back this up--by establishing the time Shelley was on the fourth floor, and the time Adams returned to the fourth floor, to see if these times over-lapped? Or even to ask Adams' co-workers who remained on the fourth floor to see if they recalled her talking to Shelley? No, of course not.

Because...Ball and Belin didn't want to know the truth. That much is clear, if nothing else.

Here, again, is the passage in the Warren Report in which they pretend to resolve this issue:

"Lovelady and Shelley moved out into the street. About this time Shelley saw Truly and Patrolman Baker go into the building. Shelley and Lovelady, at a fast walk or trot, turned west into the railroad yards and then to the west side of the Depository Building. They reentered the building by the rear door several minutes after Baker and Truly rushed through the front entrance. On entering, Lovelady saw a girl on the first floor who he believes was Victoria Adams. If Miss Adams accurately recalled meeting Shelley and Lovelady when she reached the bottom of the stairs, then her estimate of the time when she descended from the fourth floor is incorrect, and she actually came down the stairs several minutes after Oswald and after Truly and Baker as well. "

While Shelley testified to Baker and Truly's running up the front steps 3 or 4 minutes after the shooting, and Lovelady testified to Gloria Calvary's running up to Shelley and himself 3 minutes after the shooting (and that this happened before Baker and Truly ran up the steps), Ball and Belin knew they couldn't use this to discredit Adams, because they'd already performed a re-enactment of Baker's run to the steps, and had concluded it concluded around 15 seconds after the last shot, and not 3 or 4 minutes. So they relied instead on Shelley and Lovelady's estimates regarding how long they spent in the train yards.

But this, too, was a problem. And a pretty big one at that. While Shelley and Lovelady were purported to have told the FBI they spent 5-10 minutes in the train yards before re-entering the building, those claims were made in unsigned statements. So how did they testify? Well, when asked how long they spent by the railroad tracks, Shelley said he "wouldn't say over a minute or minute and a half" and Lovelady said "just a minute, maybe minute and a half."

Now, wait a second. It would have taken Shelley and Lovelady but 15 seconds or so to reach the train yards, and another 15 seconds or so to re-enter the building via the side door. And they had already left the steps when Baker and Truly ran up to the steps. So let's cut 5 seconds off that 30.

So...by their own approximation, Shelley and Lovelady were back inside the building within 85-115 seconds of Baker and Truly's entering the building (as opposed to the "several minutes" claimed in the report).

Well, this nearly overlaps with the re-enactment performed by Baker on 3-20-64, which Baker thought was a bit faster than it had been in reality.

That re-enactment placed Baker on the second floor 60-75 seconds after entering the building. As it would take but 8 seconds or so to climb the stairs from the bottom of the elevators to the second floor, furthermore, this put Baker and Truly at the back elevators 52-67 seconds after entering the building.

Well, that's just 18 seconds or so before Shelley and Lovelady said they were near the back elevators.

Now, okay, Shelley and Lovelady would have to have been there 10 seconds or more before Baker and Truly ran up to be seen by Adams, and not have Adams see Baker and Truly, so that's 28 seconds.

Which is pretty damned close, when you think of it. I mean, Shelley and Lovelady thought they re-entered the side of the building 85-115 seconds after Baker and Truly entered the front of the building. Let's say they were wrong. And that it was more like 71 seconds.

Now let's add-in that Belin's re-enactment (which Baker thought was on the short side) placed Baker by the back elevators 75 seconds or so after he entered the building. Well, what if he was wrong? And that it was more like 89 seconds?

Well, that gives Shelley and Lovelady an 18 second window in which to get to the back of the building, be addressed by Adams and Styles, and observe Baker and Truly run up to the elevators.

That's right, a 14-second mis-estimation on the part of both Belin/Baker, and Shelley/Lovelady, changes everything.

Now consider the opposite. For Adams to have been wrong, and for her to have descended AFTER Baker and Truly ran up the steps, she would have to have been off by 90 seconds or so in her estimation, that is, what she thought took 60 seconds or so would have to have taken 150 seconds or so.

And not just her, but Lovelady. Let's recall that Lovelady placed his return into the building at 85-115 seconds after Baker and Truly entered the building, and that he thought he saw Adams upon entering.

Well, the scenario propped up in the Warren Report holds that he, too, was wrong, and that he'd really returned 165-180 seconds after Baker and Truly entered the building.

So what makes more sense? That the re-enactment and the recollections of Shelley and Lovelady were slightly off, or that the recollections of Lovelady and Adams were far off--not even close?

I mean, this isn't rocket science. Ball and Belin had to choose between two scenarios--one in which the estimates of Baker, Shelley and Lovelady were slightly off and one in which the estimates of Adams and Lovelady (and presumably Styles who they never bothered to interview) were far off, and they choose the latter and refused to investigate further.

They believed because they wanted to believe--or, more accurately, disbelieved because they wanted to disbelieve.

If Adams was on the stairs when she claimed, it shot a hole in their belief Oswald ran downstairs, which in turn shot a hole in their belief he fired the shots, which in turn shot a hole in their belief Jack Dougherty was on the elevator that descended while Baker and Truly were running up the stairs.

In other words, Vickie Adams, much as Arnold Rowland, Jack Dougherty and Eddie Piper, was an obstacle to the goals of the commission, that needed to be smashed.

AND SO...One might more than wonder if it was just a coincidence that FBI photo 9--the one showing the warehouse phone presumably used by Shelley upon his return to the building--and the one right by where Vickie Adams said she saw him--was a mis-labeled mess, at least as presented within the commission's records...one might suspect foul play.

And I know. That might seem a bit of a stretch. Photos get mislabeled and are sometimes badly reproduced, etc...

But...there was no upside in the commission letting the public see this phone.

Let's recall here that Pierce Allman claimed he'd arrived at this phone (a phone in "an open area," according to Allman, and a phone "by a pillar," according to MacNeill) shortly after the assassination, and that no one was around when he came in besides the person now presumed to have been Oswald.

Well, think about it. Allman, who has become semi-famous for 1) running into Oswald as he came in the building, and 2) claiming all the shots came from the building, and that Oswald must have acted alone, is actually one of the best witnesses for Oswald's innocence. He would have to have arrived on the scene within a few minutes to have bumped into Oswald. And yet he would almost certainly have noticed, or been noticed by, Adams, Styles, Shelley and Lovelady, should THEY have come through the side door, or down the stairs, after his arrival at the location of the phone.

Well, it follows, then, that they had skedaddled BEFORE Allman came into the building, and not after. Allman, let's remember, stayed on the phone for 25 minutes or so...

And that means they had skedaddled BEFORE Oswald reached the front door, where Allman asked him about a phone...

The important question in all of this is whether or not Oswald came down those steps after the murder.

 

Let's review, as you like to say.  Starting with what we agree about.

 

1)  Vicki Adams'  estimate of when she and Sandra Styles descended the steps is reasonably accurate.  It was corroborated by Dorothy Garner, the women's supervisor, maybe Styles, and Barry Ernest agrees.  When asked by Ernest, Styles initially wasn't as sure of the timing as the other two women.  But she ultimately deferred to Adams' judgement, who was adement. Styles had been left out of the official "investigation"; Adams was thrust into the middle of it and lived with it for more than 40 years until she died. Perhaps it's more accurate to say Styles did not disagree with the estimate, rather than she corroborated it more than 40 years later.  There is no record of Styles being asked about her trip down the stairs with Adams at the time of the incident, for obvious reasons I have discussed.

 

2) Garner said she remained on the 4th floor and was still there when Truly and a cop came by.  She never saw or heard Oswald. She told that to US Asst Attorney Martha Stroud on June 2, 1964, who told J Lee Rankin about what Garner said in a registered letter the same day.  Garner verified her story with Ernest years later.  Again, there is no record Garner was ever asked about it by the "investigators", even after Stroud told Rankin about what she said.

 

3) Ball/Belin's job was clear.  To discredit Adams' time line to give Oswald enough time to come down the stairs before Adam and Styles, as the WC claimed.  Or the whole WR would be toast.

 

Here's where we disagree.  I say they tried to discredit Adams by the simple device of inserting words in Adams' testimony having her say she saw Shelley and Lovelady when she reached the first floor, and claiming those two were not there until several minutes later.

 

You say Adams *did* see S&L on the first floor.  It's the claim that S&L were not back to the first floor until later that is false.  In effect that means S&L were more collaboration for Adams' time line! 

 

Seems to me both versions lead to the same conclusion, but by different paths.  Oswald did not come down those steps after the murder.

 

 

 

 

[Pat Speer]

4 hours ago, Roger Odisio said:

The important question in all of this is whether or not Oswald came down those steps after the murder.

 

Let's review, as you like to say.  Starting with what we agree about.

 

1)  Vicki Adams'  estimate of when she and Sandra Styles descended the steps is reasonably accurate.  It was corroborated by Dorothy Garner, the women's supervisor, maybe Styles, and Barry Ernest agrees.  When asked by Ernest, Styles initially wasn't as sure of the timing as the other two women.  But she ultimately deferred to Adams' judgement, who was adement. Styles had been left out of the official "investigation"; Adams was thrust into the middle of it and lived with it for more than 40 years until she died. Perhaps it's more accurate to say Styles did not disagree with the estimate, rather than she corroborated it more than 40 years later.  There is no record of Styles being asked about her trip down the stairs with Adams at the time of the incident, for obvious reasons I have discussed.

 

2) Garner said she remained on the 4th floor and was still there when Truly and a cop came by.  She never saw or heard Oswald. She told that to US Asst Attorney Martha Stroud on June 2, 1964, who told J Lee Rankin about what Garner said in a registered letter the same day.  Garner verified her story with Ernest years later.  Again, there is no record Garner was ever asked about it by the "investigators", even after Stroud told Rankin about what she said.

 

3) Ball/Belin's job was clear.  To discredit Adams' time line to give Oswald enough time to come down the stairs before Adam and Styles, as the WC claimed.  Or the whole WR would be toast.

 

Here's where we disagree.  I say they tried to discredit Adams by the simple device of inserting words in Adams' testimony having her say she saw Shelley and Lovelady when she reached the first floor, and claiming those two were not there until several minutes later.

 

You say Adams *did* see S&L on the first floor.  It's the claim that S&L were not back to the first floor until later that is false.  In effect that means S&L were more collaboration for Adams' time line! 

 

Seems to me both versions lead to the same conclusion, but by different paths.  Oswald did not come down those steps after the murder.

 

 

 

 

I'm sorry about any confusion. I meant to clear this up earlier. My years-long study of the evidence against Oswald, culminating in chapter 4 through 4h on my website, and a number of appearances at Lancer, led me to believe Oswald was not a shooter, and was not on the sixth floor at the time of the shooting. My first years of research involving the medical evidence and Dealey Plaza witnesses had led me to believe there was more than one shooter. I then went back to study the evidence against Oswald, only to discover a ton of stuff that had been over-looked, and to realize he was almost certainly innocent of JFK's murder. 

[Roger Odisio]

Thanks for that, Pat.

The remaining problem is the question of where Oswald *was* during the murder.

Barry Ernest's book and Oliver Stone's docs using his book have so far been unable to break through the media blackout about the murder.  Though I sense Junior's exposure in the alternative media is weakening it.

Next up is pursuit of Darnell and Wiegman, now being hidden by NBC Universal. That's part of the MFF lawsuit.  Unfortunately Bill and Larry are in front of a lazy and ignorant judge 

Adding an image of Oswald on the steps would destroy the Warren Report.

 

[Leslie Sharp]

With all due respect @Roger Odisio, the Warren Report was destroyed long before the Prayer Man theorem entered the investigation. What might happen if the Prayer Man turns out not to be Oswald: the Warren Report got it right after all?  

[Roger Odisio]

4 minutes ago, Leslie Sharp said:

With all due respect @Roger Odisio, the Warren Report was destroyed long before the Prayer Man theorem entered the investigation.

RO:  It was destroyed in your mind and my mind, but we're a tiny minority.  I'm talking about what it will take to break the media blackout and get the public interested in what really happened.  It's been 60 years of failure in that regard.  Stone's docs, Ernest's book showing Oswald wasn't on the 6th floor, and Junior's talking on alternative media has not done that.  Adding a recognizable image of Oswald on the steps would be a powerful step forward that would be difficult to ignore.   

What might happen if the Prayer Man turns out not to be Oswald: the Warren Report got it right after all?  

RO:  A silly nonsequitor.

 

[Leslie Sharp]

14 minutes ago, Roger Odisio said:

 

I appreciate the optics, certainly.  

But, in this digital / AI age, putting too many eggs in one basket - an image of Oswald on the steps would destroy the Warren Report — is silly.

A word of caution: authentication is a b-itch.

Edited August 14, 2023 by Leslie Sharp

[Tom Gram]

9 hours ago, Leslie Sharp said:

I appreciate the optics, certainly.  

But, in this digital / AI age, putting too many eggs in one basket - an image of Oswald on the steps would destroy the Warren Report — is silly.

A word of caution: authentication is a b-itch.

No one in their right mind thinks that the Weigman and Darnell films held by NBC are somehow not the original films. All that would be needed is a high definition digital scan that shows Oswald on the steps and bam, the JFK case gets actually reopened. 

The PM theory is based on documentary evidence that the second floor lunchroom encounter didn’t happen and that Oswald was encountered on the first floor by the front entrance, not just the films. There is evidence contradicting the theory just like any other theory in this case, but the supporting evidence offered by Murphy, Kamp et al. is quite strong and the core arguments will survive even if PM turns out to be some random dude.

The films offer a non-zero chance of immediately reopening the case, and there is no other currently withheld evidence with that kind of potential. Therefore, regardless of what you think of PM, everyone should support the pursuit of the films because the expected value of obtaining them is higher than all the remaining documents combined. In other words, even if there’s a 0.01% chance that PM is Oswald, that’s a 0.01% chance of a full-scale reinvestigation of the JFK assassination, and a 99.99% chance of solving a major unsolved mystery in the case. It’s the ultimate win-win. 

[Roger Odisio]

2 hours ago, Tom Gram said:

No one in their right mind thinks that the Weigman and Darnell films held by NBC are somehow not the original films. All that would be needed is a high definition digital scan that shows Oswald on the steps and bam, the JFK case gets actually reopened. 

The PM theory is based on documentary evidence that the second floor lunchroom encounter didn’t happen and that Oswald was encountered on the first floor by the front entrance, not just the films. There is evidence contradicting the theory just like any other theory in this case, but the supporting evidence offered by Murphy, Kamp et al. is quite strong and the core arguments will survive even if PM turns out to be some random dude.

The films offer a non-zero chance of immediately reopening the case, and there is no other currently withheld evidence with that kind of potential. Therefore, regardless of what you think of PM, everyone should support the pursuit of the films because the expected value of obtaining them is higher than all the remaining documents combined. In other words, even if there’s a 0.01% chance that PM is Oswald, that’s a 0.01% chance of a full-scale reinvestigation of the JFK assassination, and a 99.99% chance of solving a major unsolved mystery in the case. It’s the ultimate win-win. 

Well said, Tom.  As you may remember, even David Von Pein would like to see a better version of Darnell and Wiegman. 

His response to you, July 4 , 2022, right here on EF:  

"As I've said before (such as right here at this forum just three days ago), I'm definitely in favor of trying to get better versions of the Wiegman and Darnell films.   Let's do it!"

[Leslie Sharp]

10 hours ago, Tom Gram said:

No one in their right mind thinks that the Weigman and Darnell films held by NBC are somehow not the original films. All that would be needed is a high definition digital scan that shows Oswald on the steps and bam, the JFK case gets actually reopened. 

The PM theory is based on documentary evidence that the second floor lunchroom encounter didn’t happen and that Oswald was encountered on the first floor by the front entrance, not just the films. There is evidence contradicting the theory just like any other theory in this case, but the supporting evidence offered by Murphy, Kamp et al. is quite strong and the core arguments will survive even if PM turns out to be some random dude.

The films offer a non-zero chance of immediately reopening the case, and there is no other currently withheld evidence with that kind of potential. Therefore, regardless of what you think of PM, everyone should support the pursuit of the films because the expected value of obtaining them is higher than all the remaining documents combined. In other words, even if there’s a 0.01% chance that PM is Oswald, that’s a 0.01% chance of a full-scale reinvestigation of the JFK assassination, and a 99.99% chance of solving a major unsolved mystery in the case. It’s the ultimate win-win. 

The question of photo manipulation is obviously lost on those who consider PM a sacred cow.

[Pete Mellor]

For those who prefer a 'real' book over digital 'Kindle' versions, please note that the paperback publication of 'Prayer Man: More Than A Fuzzy Picture is now available through Amazon here:-
USA: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CH2PPB36
UK: https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0CH2PPB36
AUS: https://www.amazon.com.au/dp/B0CH2PPB36
 

Edited September 5, 2023 by Pete Mellor
info

[Gerry Down]

9 minutes ago, Pete Mellor said:

For those who prefer a 'real' book over digital 'Kindle' versions, please note that the hardback publication of 'Prayer Man: More Than A Fuzzy Picture is now available through Amazon here:-
USA: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CH2PPB36
UK: https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0CH2PPB36
AUS: https://www.amazon.com.au/dp/B0CH2PPB36
 

Thanks. Though it only seems to be available in paperback not hardback?

[Pete Mellor]

6 minutes ago, Gerry Down said:

Thanks. Though it only seems to be available in paperback not hardback?

Cheers Gerry.  My post edited.