Prayer Man More Than A Fuzzy Picture

[Roger Odisio]

On 8/10/2023 at 12:12 AM, Pat Speer said:

Adams was made to feel like an idiot for what she'd said about Lovelady and Shelley. So it's not exactly a surprise that she would much much later say she never said it. But she said it more than once, and Lovelady and Shelley both confirmed that she'd seen them, albeit indirectly. 

It should also be noted that the transcript to her testimony is in the archives, along with her hand-written notations. There was no attempt on her part to remove the testimony regarding seeing Lovelady and Shelley, quite obviously because she stood by her testimony. 

As far as the stenographer tapes...they were alll destroyed beck in 1964. 

FWIW, it's clear to me that if there was a deliberate attempt to change the record and make it look like Adams said something that could be used to suggest she didn't come down the stairs when she said she did, that Lovelady and Shelley's testimony would also have been changed. Well, their testimony suggests they did see her, but weren't sure where they saw her.

As stated, you can tell what was going on by the questions never asked. Neither Lovelady nor Shelley were asked if they'd seen Baker and Truly approach the stairs. This was one of the most important questions they could have been asked. Baker said he saw two unidentified men standing at the back of the building. Shelley said Truly told him to guard the elevator. So why was no attempt made to figure out the identity of these men? Or just when Truly told Shelley to watch the elevator. 

I think we know. The fix was in. Ball/Belin decided to pin it on the Oswald, and to do what they needed to make out that some of Oswald's co-workers were idiots. Adams wasn't alone. Piper and Dougherty were also set up. 

I disagree with much of what you say here, Pat, except the last paragraph with one correction.  Ball/Bellin did not make the decision to frame Oswald.  That was decided by persons much higher up in the food chain at the time the murder was being planned.

 

Yes, they needed to make some workers like Adams look like fools, and ignore others like Garner and Styles who corroborated Adams.  My point:  they did that to Adams by inserting the bogus passage into her testimony after she had signed off on it.

 

You say the stenographer's tapes of Adams, Shelley, and Lovelady were destroyed in 1964, but don't indicate how you know that.  That doesn't square with what Barry Ernest found when he searched for Adams' tape in 2012.  According to a NARA inventory of JFKA records, stenographers' tapes are contained in 16 boxes, organized by date of testimony, not the name of the witness. Ernest filed a FOIA for Adams' tape and received this reply:  "We searched our collection and exhibits database for the stenographer's tape, but were unable to locate the item". 

 

So NARA had collected all of the relevant JFK tapes.  When Ernest asked, specifying the box the tape was supposed to be in, they searched  and found nothing.  If all three tapes had been destroyed in 1964 as you claim why wouldn't NARA know that?   If they did know the tapes were destroyed in 1964, why didn't they tell Ernest that instead of that they were missing  (the latter, of course, makes them look bad)?  If in fact they were destroyed at some point and not just gone "missing" like other evidence in this case, what was the purpose if not to hide their dirty deed?  

 

When you say Adams said more than once that she saw S&L on the first floor, I assume you mean her encounter with Det. Jim Leavelle. You must know that story.

 

Leavelle showed up at Adams apartment one night in February, 1964 unannounced.   She had just moved there that day.  She hadn't told anyone she was moving or what her new address was.  She was freaked out.  They were following her.  Leavelle said he was there because a fire had destroyed their records of previous encounters with Adams. He was lying. Big Jim was trying to intimidate her.

 

In Leavelle's report Adams was supposed to have said:  "I went down to the first floor. I saw Mr. Shelly [sic] and another employee named Bill."  That's the same fabrication added to Adams' official interview.  They refused to interview either Styles, who accompanied Adams down the steps or Garner, who stayed behind, because they knew they would corroborate Adams. Why not create some "corroboration" by having Adams repeat the same words to a second questioner.

 

Adams did make corrections to her testimony as confirmed by the Martha Joe Stroud letter to Lee Rankin, corrections which were never entered in the official copy of of Adams' testimony. Ernest says there are now two "official" copies of Adams' testimony, but we needn't go there.

 

But far from being obvious that she stood by the bogus words in question and later lied to Ernest, she didn't act to remove the passage at the time because it wasn't there!  It was added later without her knowledge, as she insisted to Ernest..

 

S&L did not confirm seeing Adams on the first floor when they returned to the building, even indirectly.  Whatever you mean by that.  Both left their answers vague despite several attempts to lead them by Ball.  There was no need to change their testimony.  A vague maybe was enough.

 

I noticed you don't mention Dorothy Garner, whose testimony may destroy the Oswald-down-the-steps story even more clearly than does Adams.

 

Garner stayed behind on the 4th floor when Adams and Styles went down the steps.  She confirmed to Ernest that the two women left quickly after the shots.  She was still there as Truly and a cop came by  on their way up the stairs.  She never saw or heard Oswald.

 

This helps establish two things.  Oswald wasn't on the 6th floor at the time of the murder, and the 2nd floor lunch room encounter was fabricated, as Bart Kamp has independently shown.  That's the important point in all of this.

 

 

[David Josephs]

18 minutes ago, Roger Odisio said:

This helps establish two things.  Oswald wasn't on the 6th floor at the time of the murder, and the 2nd floor lunch room encounter was fabricated, as Bart Kamp has independently shown.  That's the important point in all of this.

22 minutes ago, Roger Odisio said:

Neither Lovelady nor Shelley were asked if they'd seen Baker and Truly approach the stairs. This was one of the most important questions they could have been asked.

@Pat Speer  Seems they did say a few things about it.  And to actually believe it was BALL/BELIN who decided something of that magnitude on their own, especially that they "decided to pin it on Oswald", is beyond the pale even for you Pat.  Like giving Specter credit for "pinning it LHO with the SBT".  

Mr. SHELLEY - We ran out on the island while some of the people that were out watching it from our building were walking back and we turned around and we saw an officer and Truly.
Mr. BALL - And Truly?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did you see them go into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - No; we didn't watch that long but they were at the first step like they were fixin' to go in.

Mr. BALL - And that's the place you saw Truly and Baker, you say, going into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, uh-huh,

Mr. BALL - Did you see Vickie Adams after you came into the building and did you see her on the first floor?
Mr. SHELLEY - I sure don't remember.
Mr. BALL - You don't.
Mr. SHELLEY - No

Mr. BALL - They were running from that way or toward that way?
Mr. LOVELADY - Toward that way; everybody thought it was coming from that direction.
Mr. BALL - By the time you left the steps had Mr. Truly entered the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - As we left the steps I would say we were at least 15. maybe 25. steps away from the building. I looked back and I saw him and the policeman running into the building.
Mr. BALL - How many steps?

Mr. BALL - How did you happen to turn around and see Truly and the policeman go into the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - Somebody hollered and I looked.
Mr. BALL - You turned around and looked?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.

Mr. BALL - Who did you see in the first floor?
Mr. LOVELADY - I saw a girl but I wouldn't swear to it it's Vickie.

(DJ: No one had mentioned the name Vickie Adams to this point - LOVELADY volunteers the info)

Mr. BALL - Who is Vickie?
Mr. LOVELADY - The girl that works for Scott, Foresman.
Mr. BALL - What is her full name?
Mr. LOVELADY - I wouldn't know.
Mr. BALL - Vickie Adams?
Mr. LOVELADY - I believe so.
Mr. BALL - Would you say it was Vickie you saw?
Mr. LOVELADY - I couldn't swear.
Mr. BALL - Where was the girl?
Mr. LOVELADY - I don't remember what place she was but I remember seeing a girl as she was talking to Bill or saw Bill or something, then I went over and asked one of the guys what time it was and to see if we should continue working or what.

(DJ: And corroborating Bill SHELLEY was also there)

 

Does Ms Arnold's statement help place Oswald moving towards the steps about that time?  Any reason for the WC to mess with her information about Oswald?

[Pat Speer]

18 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

@Pat Speer  Seems they did say a few things about it.  And to actually believe it was BALL/BELIN who decided something of that magnitude on their own, especially that they "decided to pin it on Oswald", is beyond the pale even for you Pat.  Like giving Specter credit for "pinning it LHO with the SBT".  

Mr. SHELLEY - We ran out on the island while some of the people that were out watching it from our building were walking back and we turned around and we saw an officer and Truly.
Mr. BALL - And Truly?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did you see them go into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - No; we didn't watch that long but they were at the first step like they were fixin' to go in.

Mr. BALL - And that's the place you saw Truly and Baker, you say, going into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, uh-huh,

Mr. BALL - Did you see Vickie Adams after you came into the building and did you see her on the first floor?
Mr. SHELLEY - I sure don't remember.
Mr. BALL - You don't.
Mr. SHELLEY - No

Mr. BALL - They were running from that way or toward that way?
Mr. LOVELADY - Toward that way; everybody thought it was coming from that direction.
Mr. BALL - By the time you left the steps had Mr. Truly entered the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - As we left the steps I would say we were at least 15. maybe 25. steps away from the building. I looked back and I saw him and the policeman running into the building.
Mr. BALL - How many steps?

Mr. BALL - How did you happen to turn around and see Truly and the policeman go into the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - Somebody hollered and I looked.
Mr. BALL - You turned around and looked?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.

Mr. BALL - Who did you see in the first floor?
Mr. LOVELADY - I saw a girl but I wouldn't swear to it it's Vickie.

(DJ: No one had mentioned the name Vickie Adams to this point - LOVELADY volunteers the info)

Mr. BALL - Who is Vickie?
Mr. LOVELADY - The girl that works for Scott, Foresman.
Mr. BALL - What is her full name?
Mr. LOVELADY - I wouldn't know.
Mr. BALL - Vickie Adams?
Mr. LOVELADY - I believe so.
Mr. BALL - Would you say it was Vickie you saw?
Mr. LOVELADY - I couldn't swear.
Mr. BALL - Where was the girl?
Mr. LOVELADY - I don't remember what place she was but I remember seeing a girl as she was talking to Bill or saw Bill or something, then I went over and asked one of the guys what time it was and to see if we should continue working or what.

(DJ: And corroborating Bill SHELLEY was also there)

 

Does Ms Arnold's statement help place Oswald moving towards the steps about that time?  Any reason for the WC to mess with her information about Oswald?

This is all covered in detail in my chapter. Shelley and Lovelady were racing towards the railroad tracks when Baker approached Truly at the front of the building. Shelley and Lovelady then went around the outside to the west entrance, beating Baker and Truly to the back of the building by 10 seconds or so. (This leads me to believe Baker and Truly paused a few times on their journey to the back elevators.)

The "official" story leaves a number of loose strands that are only explained by the scenario I've offered. 

1. Baker saw two men at the back of the building. If not Shelley and Lovelady who were they? No other white employees were anywhere near there at the time. 

2. Lovelady saw a girl when he came in from the west. If not Adams, who was it?

3. Shelley said he spoke to Adams but thought it might have been on the fourth floor. He didn't get to the fourth till 5 minutes or so after the shots. Did she not go down for five minutes after the shooting? No, she said she saw a policeman standing on a corner looking up at the building when she came down. This would have been Welcome Barnett, if I recall, who said he ran over there right after the shots. So, yes, we know she came down right away. But did she go back up to the fourth in time to run into Shelley? My recollection is it doesn't add up.

It goes on and on. For whatever reason, neither Ball/Belin nor the researchers to follow spent any real time on this--figuring out who saw who, etc. I suppose it was a bit daunting, but from putting together my database of witness statements, I came to realize that there really weren't all that many players, and that if Sawyer said someone took him to the fourth, and Shelley said he took someone to the fourth, well, they were talking about each other. 

4. 

 

[Pat Speer]

2 hours ago, Roger Odisio said:

I disagree with much of what you say here, Pat, except the last paragraph with one correction.  Ball/Bellin did not make the decision to frame Oswald.  That was decided by persons much higher up in the food chain at the time the murder was being planned.

 

Yes, they needed to make some workers like Adams look like fools, and ignore others like Garner and Styles who corroborated Adams.  My point:  they did that to Adams by inserting the bogus passage into her testimony after she had signed off on it.

 

You say the stenographer's tapes of Adams, Shelley, and Lovelady were destroyed in 1964, but don't indicate how you know that.  That doesn't square with what Barry Ernest found when he searched for Adams' tape in 2012.  According to a NARA inventory of JFKA records, stenographers' tapes are contained in 16 boxes, organized by date of testimony, not the name of the witness. Ernest filed a FOIA for Adams' tape and received this reply:  "We searched our collection and exhibits database for the stenographer's tape, but were unable to locate the item". 

 

So NARA had collected all of the relevant JFK tapes.  When Ernest asked, specifying the box the tape was supposed to be in, they searched  and found nothing.  If all three tapes had been destroyed in 1964 as you claim why wouldn't NARA know that?   If they did know the tapes were destroyed in 1964, why didn't they tell Ernest that instead of that they were missing  (the latter, of course, makes them look bad)?  If in fact they were destroyed at some point and not just gone "missing" like other evidence in this case, what was the purpose if not to hide their dirty deed?  

 

When you say Adams said more than once that she saw S&L on the first floor, I assume you mean her encounter with Det. Jim Leavelle. You must know that story.

 

Leavelle showed up at Adams apartment one night in February, 1964 unannounced.   She had just moved there that day.  She hadn't told anyone she was moving or what her new address was.  She was freaked out.  They were following her.  Leavelle said he was there because a fire had destroyed their records of previous encounters with Adams. He was lying. Big Jim was trying to intimidate her.

 

In Leavelle's report Adams was supposed to have said:  "I went down to the first floor. I saw Mr. Shelly [sic] and another employee named Bill."  That's the same fabrication added to Adams' official interview.  They refused to interview either Styles, who accompanied Adams down the steps or Garner, who stayed behind, because they knew they would corroborate Adams. Why not create some "corroboration" by having Adams repeat the same words to a second questioner.

 

Adams did make corrections to her testimony as confirmed by the Martha Joe Stroud letter to Lee Rankin, corrections which were never entered in the official copy of of Adams' testimony. Ernest says there are now two "official" copies of Adams' testimony, but we needn't go there.

 

But far from being obvious that she stood by the bogus words in question and later lied to Ernest, she didn't act to remove the passage at the time because it wasn't there!  It was added later without her knowledge, as she insisted to Ernest..

 

S&L did not confirm seeing Adams on the first floor when they returned to the building, even indirectly.  Whatever you mean by that.  Both left their answers vague despite several attempts to lead them by Ball. There was no need to change their testimony.  A vague maybe was enough.

 

I noticed you don't mention Dorothy Garner, whose testimony may destroy the Oswald-down-the-steps story even more clearly than does Adams.

 

Garner stayed behind on the 4th floor when Adams and Styles went down the steps.  She confirmed to Ernest that the two women left quickly after the shots.  She was still there as Truly and a cop came by  on their way up the stairs.  She never saw or heard Oswald.

 

This helps establish two things.  Oswald wasn't on the 6th floor at the time of the murder, and the 2nd floor lunch room encounter was fabricated, as Bart Kamp has independently shown.  That's the important point in all of this.

 

 

I have what amounts to a book on all this. There is a ton in there on Garner, etc. 

As far as Adams' transcript, the Stroud letter in which she famously admits she talked to Garner and that Garner supported Adams' claim she descended the stairs before Baker and Truly ran up, is a summary of the changes Adams made to her transcript before signing. The transcript in the archives reflects all these changes, in pen, and Adams' signature, in pen.  In any event, it is really really silly to say we know something happened because Stroud said so, and then say the rest of that letter is a hoax, or whatever. OF COURSE, Adams said she saw Shelley and Lovelady. If she hadn't, Ball/Belin wouldn't have gone to the lengths they did to pretend Shelley and Lovelady were outside for far longer than they actually were. 

As far as Shelley and Lovelady--Lovelady said they saw a girl when they came in--who was this if not Adams?--and Shelley said he talked to Adams but couldn't remember just where--where was this if not on the first floor? There are statements by Baker and Truly, etc, that support this as well. So, yikes, the pieces only fit when we assume they were there when she came down. 

As far as the stenographer's tapes, I seem to remember Weisberg pursuing these and being told they'd been destroyed. But I may be confused on this. I do know that there was an order to destroy all copies of the Executive Session in which Oswald's possible connection to the intelligence agencies was discussed, and that Warren wanted to destroy all the transcripts at one point but was pulled back from this by Russell and Goldberg. So...there's little reason to believe the stenographer's tapes exist. 

 

Edited August 11, 2023 by Pat Speer

[Gerry Down]

14 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

Nope. The very films you claim show Oswald on the front steps show Shelley and Lovelady race towards the train yards. They were not stopped by cops. They then came back in through the side so Shelley could call his wife. 

And we know this took a minute or so because... 

1. Adams said she saw them when she came down from above, and placed them near a phone.

2. Shelley said he saw her but couldn't remember when...and this would have been the only time that made sense. 

3. Lovelady said he saw a girl when he came in but he couldn't say for sure if it was Vickie, and Adams and Styles were the only girls to be at the back of the building at the time.

4. Baker said he saw two white men at the back of the building when he came in, and Shelley and Lovelady are the only two that make sense.

'5. Shelley said Truly asked him to guard the elevator. As Truly went upstairs within two minutes of the shots, and didn't come down till 7 or 8 minutes later, when cops were pouring in the building, this only makes sense if Shelley and Lovelady were the two men at the back of the building.

6. Sawyer said he came In at 4 minutes or so after the shooting, and was escorted up to the fourth floor by an employee waiting near the front elevator.

7. Shelley said he escorted a cop up to the fourth floor shortly after the shots. It is clear this cop was Sawyer. 

Now, it is quite telling, IMO, that Ball/Belin never created a timeline of the movements of the employees. If they had it would have been clear Shelley and Lovelady were on the first floor within a minute or so of the shots, and saw Adams come down...BEFORE Baker and Truly reached the back of the building.

8. This fact was supported, moreover, by Lovelady, who told the HSCA he saw Baker and Truly run up the stairs. Well, huh, in the WC scenario he was outside at the time. 

Lovelady saw Baker and Truly run up the stairs? Maybe he meant he saw them run up the front steps of the tsbd.

With regard to the two white men that Baker saw. There appears to be less people on the front steps of the tsbd in the Darnell footage than at the time of the altgens 6 photo. I wonder if some of the people on the steps at the time of the altgens 6 photo had gone back inside by the time of the Darnell footage. 

Truly most likely asked Shelley to guard the elevator after coming back down. If Truly was so thoughtful to get someone to guard the front elevator, then wouldn't he also have got someone to guard the back elevators while he ran up the stairs?

Plus your scenario has Shelley run into the tsbd right after the shots, call his wife, and then be told by truly to guard the elevator which he did?

Why would Shelley call his wife so quick? As Truly and Baker reached the second floor lunchroom 90 seconds after the shots, Shelley would have had to call his wife less than 60 seconds after the shots had been fired according to your scenario if I understand it correctly.

[David Josephs]

1 hour ago, Pat Speer said:

Shelley and Lovelady were racing towards the railroad tracks when Baker approached Truly at the front of the building.

Only if you believe them - for which there is no good reason when we are aware of conflicting testimony of those who were not the CIA-affiliated Manager of the Misc Dept.  . And the Baker 2nd floor encounter has been dismissed for the twaddle it was when offered.  Never happened.  No coke, no door, no window, no boxes in the way, no drawn gun... none of that happened...  But SAWYER and men did run into a man getting off the elevator as they were getting on to go to the 4th floor.. this at 12:34...  

...As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to the man and he turned around and came back toward me. The manager said, "I know that man, he works here." I then turned the man loose and went up to the top floor. The man I saw was a white man approximately 30 years old, 5'9", 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket.

s/ M. L. Baker

 

SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN BEFORE ME THIS 22 DAY OF November A.D. 1963

/s/ Mary Rattan

We need to remember he is talking about the FOURTH FLOOR...

And I went with a couple of officers and a man who I believed worked in the building. The elevator was just to the right of the main entrance, and we went to the top floor (DJ 4th floor was this elevator's "top floor"), which was pointed out to me by this other man as being the floor that we were talking about. We had talked about the fifth floor. And we went back to the storage area and looked around and didn't see anything.
Mr. BELIN. Now you took an elevator up, is that correct?
Mr. SAWYER. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. The route that you took to the elevator, you went to the front door?
Mr. SAWYER. Right.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. SAWYER. We got into the elevator. We run into this man.
Mr. BELIN. Well, when you say you got into the elevator, where was the elevator as you walked in the front door?
Mr. SAWYER. It was to the right.
Mr. BELIN. To the right?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Was it a freight elevator or a passenger elevator?
Mr. SAWYER. The best of my recollection, it was a passenger elevator.
Mr. BELIN. Did you push for the top button in that elevator?
Mr. SAWYER. Well, I don't know who pushed it, but we went up to the top floor.
Mr. BELIN. You went up to the top floor that the elevator would go to?
Mr. SAWYER. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. You got off, and were there officers there?
Mr. SAWYER. There was one or two other officers with me.

FOURTH FLOOR!

Mr. BELIN. Now Inspector, what did you do then?
Mr. SAWYER. Well, I didn't see anything that was out of the ordinary, so I immediately came back downstairs to check the security on the building.

When one turned right where the gate was between the "executive parking" and the WEST wall of the TSBD, one would find 2 entrances to the 1st floor

Mr. BALL - Is it the one right off Houston Street?
Mr. LOVELADY - No; you are thinking about another dock.
Mr. BALL - I am?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes; we have two.
Mr. BALL - Do you have a dock on the west side and one on the north side of the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - East, and well, it would be east and west but you enter it from the south side.
Mr. BALL - Now, the south side---
Mr. LOVELADY - Elm Street is that little dead-end street.
Mr. BALL - That's south.
Mr. LOVELADY - I drive my truck here (indicating) but we came in from this direction; that would have to be west.
Mr. BALL - You came into the building from the west side?
Mr. LOVELADY - Right.
Mr. BALL - Where did you go into the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - Through that, those raised-up doors.
Mr. BALL - Through the raised-up doors?
Mr. LOVELADY - Through that double door that we in the morning when we get there we raised. There's a fire door and they have two wooden doors between it.
Mr. BALL - You came in through the first floor?
Mr. LOVELADY - Right.
Mr. BALL - Who did you see in the first floor?
Mr. LOVELADY - I saw a girl but I wouldn't swear to it it's Vickie.
Mr. BALL - Who is Vickie?

Mr. SHELLEY - We walked on down to the first railroad track there on the dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in through our parking lot at the west end.
Mr. BALL - At the west end?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes; and then in the side door into the shipping room.

Below this schematic is a modern day look at that area and how small it really is.  The door at the south was turned into a window with the other 2 entrances made into a main entrance with stairs for each. The RR tracks they refer to are not the ones in this image but are much further to the WEST.  It is my understanding from the evidence Shelley was inside the TSBD very soon after the shots and did not go anywhere with Lovelady other than inside the TSBD.

I've seen the gif of 2 men walking in that direction claimed to be Shelley and Lovelady, yet their heights and sizes do not bear that out...  IMO.

The electricity to key areas of the TSBD went out and Shelley is found in the vicinity of the electrical board in the NE corner of the 1st floor on the wall outside the Domino Room.

 

 

[Pat Speer]

1 hour ago, Gerry Down said:

Lovelady saw Baker and Truly run up the stairs? Maybe he meant he saw them run up the front steps of the tsbd.

With regard to the two white men that Baker saw. There appears to be less people on the front steps of the tsbd in the Darnell footage than at the time of the altgens 6 photo. I wonder if some of the people on the steps at the time of the altgens 6 photo had gone back inside by the time of the Darnell footage. 

Truly most likely asked Shelley to guard the elevator after coming back down. If Truly was so thoughtful to get someone to guard the front elevator, then wouldn't he also have got someone to guard the back elevators while he ran up the stairs?

Plus your scenario has Shelley run into the tsbd right after the shots, call his wife, and then be told by truly to guard the elevator which he did?

Why would Shelley call his wife so quick? As Truly and Baker reached the second floor lunchroom 90 seconds after the shots, Shelley would have had to call his wife less than 60 seconds after the shots had been fired according to your scenario if I understand it correctly.

No. He indicated that he saw them run up the back stairs. As this was something I discovered, it's not something many people know about or talk about. Here is the relevant section of my chapter/book on all this stuff... 

Suspicious Omission #27

4-7-64. Warren Commission attorney Joseph Ball also fails to ask Lovelady if he saw Roy Truly and Officer Baker run up the back stairs.

This omission is particularly egregious and suspicious in light of subsequent events. On 7-5-78, Billy Lovelady was interviewed by an HSCA investigator, accompanied by an HSCA photo analyst (Robert Groden). While the tapes of this interview were not transcribed, copies of the tapes were eventually acquired by researcher Richard Gilbride and placed on Youtube. Towards the end of Tape 1, Lovelady is asked "What did you see inside the building?" after he and Shelley returned to the building. He says he saw some co-workers, but does not name them. He is then asked to describe what the police did as they ran into the building. His response is blurred as the tape runs out. At the beginning of Tape 2, however, he repeats for posterity what he was describing as the tape ran out. He repeats: "One policeman (and) Mr. Truly had run up the steps...I guess they went up the steps when they couldn't get the freight elevator to go upstairs." Lovelady is then asked "What else did you see that went on at that time after the police came in?" He responds "At that time, after Mr. Truly and (the) officer ran up, there were more Secret Service and FBI, I guess it was, that came in."

Well this suggests that Lovelady (and Shelley) were inside the building when Truly and Baker ran up the stairs.

Edited August 11, 2023 by Pat Speer

[Roger Odisio]

2 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

I have what amounts to a book on all this. There is a ton in there on Garner, etc. 

As far as Adams' transcript, the Stroud letter in which she famously admits she talked to Garner and that Garner supported Adams' claim she descended the stairs before Baker and Truly ran up, is a summary of the changes Adams made to her transcript before signing. The transcript in the archives reflects all these changes, in pen, and Adams' signature, in pen.  In any event, it is really really silly to say we know something happened because Stroud said so, and then say the rest of that letter is a hoax, or whatever. OF COURSE, Adams said she saw Shelley and Lovelady. If she hadn't, Ball/Belin wouldn't have gone to the lengths they did to pretend Shelley and Lovelady were outside for far longer than they actually were. 

As far as Shelley and Lovelady--Lovelady said they saw a girl when they came in--who was this if not Adams?--and Shelley said he talked to Adams but couldn't remember just where--where was this if not on the first floor? There are statements by Baker and Truly, etc, that support this as well. So, yikes, the pieces only fit when we assume they were there when she came down. 

As far as the stenographer's tapes, I seem to remember Weisberg pursuing these and being told they'd been destroyed. But I may be confused on this. I do know that there was an order to destroy all copies of the Executive Session in which Oswald's possible connection to the intelligence agencies was discussed, and that Warren wanted to destroy all the transcripts at one point but was pulled back from this by Russell and Goldberg. So...there's little reason to believe the stenographer's tapes exist. 

 

PS  I have what amounts to a book on all this. There is a ton in there on Garner, etc. 

 

RO:  I'm happy for you, Pat.  But I notice you didn't dispute the main point about Garner:  that she says she was still on the 4th floor when Truly and a cop went by up the stairs, without her ever seeing or hearing Oswald.   Does that meaning anything to you? 

 

PS  As far as Adams' transcript, the Stroud letter in which she famously admits she talked to Garner and that Garner supported Adams' claim she descended the stairs before Baker and Truly ran up, is a summary of the changes Adams made to her transcript before signing. The transcript in the archives reflects all these changes, in pen, and Adams' signature, in pen.

 

RO. Yes to a point.  Ernest gives more detail about Adams' treatment and the transcripts that doesn't matter to this discussion.

 

PS In any event, it is really really silly to say we know something happened because Stroud said so, and then say the rest of that letter is a hoax, or whatever.

 

RO:  Who said either of those things???  In her letter to Rankin, Stroud (1) relayed Adams' changes and (2) said that Garner "stated this morning that after Miss Adams went downstairs she (Miss Garner) saw Mr. Truly and the policeman come up".  That's it.  Where is the hoax or whatever?  A "silly" preceded by 2 "reallys"!  You should try harder to restrain yourself and stick to the arguments. Particularly when you are so confused as here.

 

PS  OF COURSE, Adams said she saw Shelley and Lovelady.

 

RO:  Bellowing OF COURSE, doesn't work Pat.  Adams told Ernest she didn't say it after being shown the passage and said the words do not even sound like her (e,g., it's missing "sir" which she had sprinkled throughout her testimony). She concluded it was added later, as did Ernest.  You've more than once said or implied Adams was lying without offering anything real to back that up. 

 

PS:  If she hadn't, Ball/Belin wouldn't have gone to the lengths they did to pretend Shelley and Lovelady were outside for far longer than they actually were. 

 

RO:  This ain't backing I'm looking for.  You have this wrong.  Ball tried hard to get S&L to say they saw Adams on the first floor after coming down the stairs and they simply would not. They kept fudging.  Ball never mentioned Styles, who would have been there as well.  Do you suppose he did that because mentioning Styles might open a reason to question her too and he knew he didn't want to give her a chance to corroborate Adams?  You haven't mentioned her either below in your who was that that girl (singular) gambit.  

 

PS  As far as Shelley and Lovelady--Lovelady said they saw a girl when they came in--who was this if not Adams?--and Shelley said he talked to Adams but couldn't remember just where--where was this if not on the first floor? There are statements by Baker and Truly, etc, that support this as well. So, yikes, the pieces only fit when we assume they were there when she came down. 

 

RO:  Just a series of vague tidbits you want to believe.

 

PS:  As far as the stenographer's tapes, I seem to remember Weisberg pursuing these and being told they'd been destroyed. But I may be confused on this. I do know that there was an order to destroy all copies of the Executive Session in which Oswald's possible connection to the intelligence agencies was discussed, and that Warren wanted to destroy all the transcripts at one point but was pulled back from this by Russell and Goldberg. So...there's little reason to believe the stenographer's tapes exist. 

 

RO:  Yes the tapes may have been destroyed at some point.  Bill Simpich and Larry Schnapf will get a chance to ask about them if they get that far in their law suit against NARA. 

 

 

[Gerry Down]

47 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

No. He indicated that he saw them run up the back stairs. As this was something I discovered, it's not something many people know about or talk about. Here is the relevant section of my chapter/book on all this stuff... 

Suspicious Omission #27

4-7-64. Warren Commission attorney Joseph Ball also fails to ask Lovelady if he saw Roy Truly and Officer Baker run up the back stairs.

This omission is particularly egregious and suspicious in light of subsequent events. On 7-5-78, Billy Lovelady was interviewed by an HSCA investigator, accompanied by an HSCA photo analyst (Robert Groden). While the tapes of this interview were not transcribed, copies of the tapes were eventually acquired by researcher Richard Gilbride and placed on Youtube. Towards the end of Tape 1, Lovelady is asked "What did you see inside the building?" after he and Shelley returned to the building. He says he saw some co-workers, but does not name them. He is then asked to describe what the police did as they ran into the building. His response is blurred as the tape runs out. At the beginning of Tape 2, however, he repeats for posterity what he was describing as the tape ran out. He repeats: "One policeman (and) Mr. Truly had run up the steps...I guess they went up the steps when they couldn't get the freight elevator to go upstairs." Lovelady is then asked "What else did you see that went on at that time after the police came in?" He responds "At that time, after Mr. Truly and (the) officer ran up, there were more Secret Service and FBI, I guess it was, that came in."

Well this suggests that Lovelady (and Shelley) were inside the building when Truly and Baker ran up the stairs.

This is a weak argument. Lovelady is almost certainly simply recounting the known sequence of events for the questioner. This does not mean he actually saw what he is describing. While it is tempting to have Shelley and Lovelady be the two white men who Baker saw, the timing just doesn't put them there. 

At a stretch, I wonder if Shelley and Lovelady could have made it to the position as marked in yellow on this map in time to be considered by Baker to be the two white men he saw?

[Pat Speer]

59 minutes ago, Roger Odisio said:

PS  I have what amounts to a book on all this. There is a ton in there on Garner, etc. 

 

RO:  I'm happy for you, Pat.  But I notice you didn't dispute the main point about Garner:  that she says she was still on the 4th floor when Truly and a cop went by up the stairs, without her ever seeing or hearing Oswald.   Does that meaning anything to you? 

 

PS  As far as Adams' transcript, the Stroud letter in which she famously admits she talked to Garner and that Garner supported Adams' claim she descended the stairs before Baker and Truly ran up, is a summary of the changes Adams made to her transcript before signing. The transcript in the archives reflects all these changes, in pen, and Adams' signature, in pen.

 

RO. Yes to a point.  Ernest gives more detail about Adams' treatment and the transcripts that doesn't matter to this discussion.

 

PS In any event, it is really really silly to say we know something happened because Stroud said so, and then say the rest of that letter is a hoax, or whatever.

 

RO:  Who said either of those things???  In her letter to Rankin, Stroud (1) relayed Adams' changes and (2) said that Garner "stated this morning that after Miss Adams went downstairs she (Miss Garner) saw Mr. Truly and the policeman come up".  That's it.  Where is the hoax or whatever?  A "silly" preceded by 2 "reallys"!  You should try harder to restrain yourself and stick to the arguments. Particularly when you are so confused as here.

 

PS  OF COURSE, Adams said she saw Shelley and Lovelady.

 

RO:  Bellowing OF COURSE, doesn't work Pat.  Adams told Ernest she didn't say it after being shown the passage and said the words do not even sound like her (e,g., it's missing "sir" which she had sprinkled throughout her testimony). She concluded it was added later, as did Ernest.  You've more than once said or implied Adams was lying without offering anything real to back that up. 

 

PS:  If she hadn't, Ball/Belin wouldn't have gone to the lengths they did to pretend Shelley and Lovelady were outside for far longer than they actually were. 

 

RO:  This ain't backing I'm looking for.  You have this wrong.  Ball tried hard to get S&L to say they saw Adams on the first floor after coming down the stairs and they simply would not. They kept fudging.  Ball never mentioned Styles, who would have been there as well.  Do you suppose he did that because mentioning Styles might open a reason to question her too and he knew he didn't want to give her a chance to corroborate Adams?  You haven't mentioned her either below in your who was that that girl (singular) gambit.  

 

PS  As far as Shelley and Lovelady--Lovelady said they saw a girl when they came in--who was this if not Adams?--and Shelley said he talked to Adams but couldn't remember just where--where was this if not on the first floor? There are statements by Baker and Truly, etc, that support this as well. So, yikes, the pieces only fit when we assume they were there when she came down. 

 

RO:  Just a series of vague tidbits you want to believe.

 

PS:  As far as the stenographer's tapes, I seem to remember Weisberg pursuing these and being told they'd been destroyed. But I may be confused on this. I do know that there was an order to destroy all copies of the Executive Session in which Oswald's possible connection to the intelligence agencies was discussed, and that Warren wanted to destroy all the transcripts at one point but was pulled back from this by Russell and Goldberg. So...there's little reason to believe the stenographer's tapes exist. 

 

RO:  Yes the tapes may have been destroyed at some point.  Bill Simpich and Larry Schnapf will get a chance to ask about them if they get that far in their law suit against NARA. 

 

 

Ball and Belin failed to ask the questions necessary to establish who was where and when. Heck, they didn't even know there was a west side entrance to the building. As a consequence there are a lot of questions. When weeding through this stuff, a reasonable person leans to the scenarios that answer the most questions--that provide the fullest picture. For example, Sawyer said someone took him up to the fourth. Shelley said he took someone up to the fourth. While it's possible they were each talking about some mystery person, It's reasonable to assume that they were talking about each other. This is not what I want to believe. It is what's logical. 

Edited August 11, 2023 by Pat Speer

[Pat Speer]

3 hours ago, Roger Odisio said:

PS  I have what amounts to a book on all this. There is a ton in there on Garner, etc. 

 

RO:  I'm happy for you, Pat.  But I notice you didn't dispute the main point about Garner:  that she says she was still on the 4th floor when Truly and a cop went by up the stairs, without her ever seeing or hearing Oswald.   Does that meaning anything to you? 

 

PS  As far as Adams' transcript, the Stroud letter in which she famously admits she talked to Garner and that Garner supported Adams' claim she descended the stairs before Baker and Truly ran up, is a summary of the changes Adams made to her transcript before signing. The transcript in the archives reflects all these changes, in pen, and Adams' signature, in pen.

 

RO. Yes to a point.  Ernest gives more detail about Adams' treatment and the transcripts that doesn't matter to this discussion.

 

PS In any event, it is really really silly to say we know something happened because Stroud said so, and then say the rest of that letter is a hoax, or whatever.

 

RO:  Who said either of those things???  In her letter to Rankin, Stroud (1) relayed Adams' changes and (2) said that Garner "stated this morning that after Miss Adams went downstairs she (Miss Garner) saw Mr. Truly and the policeman come up".  That's it.  Where is the hoax or whatever?  A "silly" preceded by 2 "reallys"!  You should try harder to restrain yourself and stick to the arguments. Particularly when you are so confused as here.

 

PS  OF COURSE, Adams said she saw Shelley and Lovelady.

 

RO:  Bellowing OF COURSE, doesn't work Pat.  Adams told Ernest she didn't say it after being shown the passage and said the words do not even sound like her (e,g., it's missing "sir" which she had sprinkled throughout her testimony). She concluded it was added later, as did Ernest.  You've more than once said or implied Adams was lying without offering anything real to back that up. 

 

PS:  If she hadn't, Ball/Belin wouldn't have gone to the lengths they did to pretend Shelley and Lovelady were outside for far longer than they actually were. 

 

RO:  This ain't backing I'm looking for.  You have this wrong.  Ball tried hard to get S&L to say they saw Adams on the first floor after coming down the stairs and they simply would not. They kept fudging.  Ball never mentioned Styles, who would have been there as well.  Do you suppose he did that because mentioning Styles might open a reason to question her too and he knew he didn't want to give her a chance to corroborate Adams?  You haven't mentioned her either below in your who was that that girl (singular) gambit.  

 

PS  As far as Shelley and Lovelady--Lovelady said they saw a girl when they came in--who was this if not Adams?--and Shelley said he talked to Adams but couldn't remember just where--where was this if not on the first floor? There are statements by Baker and Truly, etc, that support this as well. So, yikes, the pieces only fit when we assume they were there when she came down. 

 

RO:  Just a series of vague tidbits you want to believe.

 

PS:  As far as the stenographer's tapes, I seem to remember Weisberg pursuing these and being told they'd been destroyed. But I may be confused on this. I do know that there was an order to destroy all copies of the Executive Session in which Oswald's possible connection to the intelligence agencies was discussed, and that Warren wanted to destroy all the transcripts at one point but was pulled back from this by Russell and Goldberg. So...there's little reason to believe the stenographer's tapes exist. 

 

RO:  Yes the tapes may have been destroyed at some point.  Bill Simpich and Larry Schnapf will get a chance to ask about them if they get that far in their law suit against NARA. 

 

 

Let's be clear. 

Vickie Adams said she and Styles raced down the stairs, and saw a policeman looking at the roof of the building when she came out on Houston. We know the name of this policeman, and when he went over to look at the roof of the building. This corroborates that she and Styles were on the first floor within a very short time.

We have Garner's statements that she saw Baker and Truly run up after Adams and Styles ran down. This further corroborates that Adams was down within a minute or two, and was on the stairs at the same time Oswald was purported to have been on the stairs. 

We have Adams signed testimony in which she says she spoke to Shelley upon reaching the first floor. While it's become fashionable to claim this testimony never happened, this testimony was accompanied by the Stroud memo so damaging to the "official" story. Well, you can't have one without the other, i.e., if one is to propose the Stroud memo is a fake, and Adams never signed the testimony, well, then one must simultaneously toss Stroud's statements about Garner. 

We have Shelley's statement he talked to Adams. Although he couldn't recall where he talked to her, it seems likely she left the fourth floor before he went up there with Sawyer, and returned to the fourth floor after he left to help police search the building. So that leaves the first floor, where she said she saw him. 

We have Lovelady's testimony that he saw a girl, who he couldn't swear was Vickie, talk to Shelley on the first floor after they came in from the west. As Lovelady did not go with Shelley to the fourth floor, this strongly suggests Shelley and Lovelady ran into Adams on the first floor. 

And we have Lovelady's statements to the HSCA...When asked what he saw, he repeatedly mentioned Baker and Truly's running up the back stairs. Now, some have claimed and will continue to claim he was reciting something he'd been told, but the fact is he was asked what he saw, and that he mentioned Baker and Truly's running up the back stairs in the context of what he saw. 

Edited August 12, 2023 by Pat Speer

[Pat Speer]

Here's an excerpt from Chapter 4: Pinning the Tale on the Oswald

 

Well, what are the odds? A woman claims she saw two men together at a specific place and time. They admit to being at that place, but one thinks he was at that place a bit later, and isn't completely sure she was the woman he saw when he was at that place, and the other thinks he was at that place a bit later, and remembers seeing the woman, but thinks maybe he saw her a bit later on a different floor entirely, when he wasn't with the other man.

Well, it should be readily apparent that she was right and they were wrong. Or, if not, that a little bit of thinking and/or digging could have resolved this conflict.

I mean, Lovelady remembered there being a woman when he came in the building. Well, was any effort made to identify this woman? No, of course not, because a study of the witness statements makes it pretty freakin' clear no women outside of Adams and Styles were by the back entrance of the depository in the minutes after the shooting.

And Shelley thought maybe he talked to Adams on the fourth floor. Well, was any effort made to back this up--by establishing the time Shelley was on the fourth floor, and the time Adams returned to the fourth floor, to see if these times over-lapped? Or even to ask Adams' co-workers who remained on the fourth floor to see if they recalled her talking to Shelley? No, of course not.

Because...Ball and Belin didn't want to know the truth. That much is clear, if nothing else.

Here, again, is the passage in the Warren Report in which they pretend to resolve this issue:

"Lovelady and Shelley moved out into the street. About this time Shelley saw Truly and Patrolman Baker go into the building. Shelley and Lovelady, at a fast walk or trot, turned west into the railroad yards and then to the west side of the Depository Building. They reentered the building by the rear door several minutes after Baker and Truly rushed through the front entrance. On entering, Lovelady saw a girl on the first floor who he believes was Victoria Adams. If Miss Adams accurately recalled meeting Shelley and Lovelady when she reached the bottom of the stairs, then her estimate of the time when she descended from the fourth floor is incorrect, and she actually came down the stairs several minutes after Oswald and after Truly and Baker as well. "

While Shelley testified to Baker and Truly's running up the front steps 3 or 4 minutes after the shooting, and Lovelady testified to Gloria Calvary's running up to Shelley and himself 3 minutes after the shooting (and that this happened before Baker and Truly ran up the steps), Ball and Belin knew they couldn't use this to discredit Adams, because they'd already performed a re-enactment of Baker's run to the steps, and had concluded it concluded around 15 seconds after the last shot, and not 3 or 4 minutes. So they relied instead on Shelley and Lovelady's estimates regarding how long they spent in the train yards.

But this, too, was a problem. And a pretty big one at that. While Shelley and Lovelady were purported to have told the FBI they spent 5-10 minutes in the train yards before re-entering the building, those claims were made in unsigned statements. So how did they testify? Well, when asked how long they spent by the railroad tracks, Shelley said he "wouldn't say over a minute or minute and a half" and Lovelady said "just a minute, maybe minute and a half."

Now, wait a second. It would have taken Shelley and Lovelady but 15 seconds or so to reach the train yards, and another 15 seconds or so to re-enter the building via the side door. And they had already left the steps when Baker and Truly ran up to the steps. So let's cut 5 seconds off that 30.

So...by their own approximation, Shelley and Lovelady were back inside the building within 85-115 seconds of Baker and Truly's entering the building (as opposed to the "several minutes" claimed in the report).

Well, this nearly overlaps with the re-enactment performed by Baker on 3-20-64, which Baker thought was a bit faster than it had been in reality.

That re-enactment placed Baker on the second floor 60-75 seconds after entering the building. As it would take but 8 seconds or so to climb the stairs from the bottom of the elevators to the second floor, furthermore, this put Baker and Truly at the back elevators 52-67 seconds after entering the building.

Well, that's just 18 seconds or so before Shelley and Lovelady said they were near the back elevators.

Now, okay, Shelley and Lovelady would have to have been there 10 seconds or more before Baker and Truly ran up to be seen by Adams, and not have Adams see Baker and Truly, so that's 28 seconds.

Which is pretty damned close, when you think of it. I mean, Shelley and Lovelady thought they re-entered the side of the building 85-115 seconds after Baker and Truly entered the front of the building. Let's say they were wrong. And that it was more like 71 seconds.

Now let's add-in that Belin's re-enactment (which Baker thought was on the short side) placed Baker by the back elevators 75 seconds or so after he entered the building. Well, what if he was wrong? And that it was more like 89 seconds?

Well, that gives Shelley and Lovelady an 18 second window in which to get to the back of the building, be addressed by Adams and Styles, and observe Baker and Truly run up to the elevators.

That's right, a 14-second mis-estimation on the part of both Belin/Baker, and Shelley/Lovelady, changes everything.

Now consider the opposite. For Adams to have been wrong, and for her to have descended AFTER Baker and Truly ran up the steps, she would have to have been off by 90 seconds or so in her estimation, that is, what she thought took 60 seconds or so would have to have taken 150 seconds or so.

And not just her, but Lovelady. Let's recall that Lovelady placed his return into the building at 85-115 seconds after Baker and Truly entered the building, and that he thought he saw Adams upon entering.

Well, the scenario propped up in the Warren Report holds that he, too, was wrong, and that he'd really returned 165-180 seconds after Baker and Truly entered the building.

So what makes more sense? That the re-enactment and the recollections of Shelley and Lovelady were slightly off, or that the recollections of Lovelady and Adams were far off--not even close?

I mean, this isn't rocket science. Ball and Belin had to choose between two scenarios--one in which the estimates of Baker, Shelley and Lovelady were slightly off and one in which the estimates of Adams and Lovelady (and presumably Styles who they never bothered to interview) were far off, and they choose the latter and refused to investigate further.

They believed because they wanted to believe--or, more accurately, disbelieved because they wanted to disbelieve.

If Adams was on the stairs when she claimed, it shot a hole in their belief Oswald ran downstairs, which in turn shot a hole in their belief he fired the shots, which in turn shot a hole in their belief Jack Dougherty was on the elevator that descended while Baker and Truly were running up the stairs.

In other words, Vickie Adams, much as Arnold Rowland, Jack Dougherty and Eddie Piper, was an obstacle to the goals of the commission, that needed to be smashed.

AND SO...One might more than wonder if it was just a coincidence that FBI photo 9--the one showing the warehouse phone presumably used by Shelley upon his return to the building--and the one right by where Vickie Adams said she saw him--was a mis-labeled mess, at least as presented within the commission's records...one might suspect foul play.

And I know. That might seem a bit of a stretch. Photos get mislabeled and are sometimes badly reproduced, etc...

But...there was no upside in the commission letting the public see this phone.

Let's recall here that Pierce Allman claimed he'd arrived at this phone (a phone in "an open area," according to Allman, and a phone "by a pillar," according to MacNeill) shortly after the assassination, and that no one was around when he came in besides the person now presumed to have been Oswald.

Well, think about it. Allman, who has become semi-famous for 1) running into Oswald as he came in the building, and 2) claiming all the shots came from the building, and that Oswald must have acted alone, is actually one of the best witnesses for Oswald's innocence. He would have to have arrived on the scene within a few minutes to have bumped into Oswald. And yet he would almost certainly have noticed, or been noticed by, Adams, Styles, Shelley and Lovelady, should THEY have come through the side door, or down the stairs, after his arrival at the location of the phone.

Well, it follows, then, that they had skedaddled BEFORE Allman came into the building, and not after. Allman, let's remember, stayed on the phone for 25 minutes or so...

And that means they had skedaddled BEFORE Oswald reached the front door, where Allman asked him about a phone...

[Gerry Down]

6 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

Here's an excerpt from Chapter 4: Pinning the Tale on the Oswald

 

Well, what are the odds? A woman claims she saw two men together at a specific place and time. They admit to being at that place, but one thinks he was at that place a bit later, and isn't completely sure she was the woman he saw when he was at that place, and the other thinks he was at that place a bit later, and remembers seeing the woman, but thinks maybe he saw her a bit later on a different floor entirely, when he wasn't with the other man.

Well, it should be readily apparent that she was right and they were wrong. Or, if not, that a little bit of thinking and/or digging could have resolved this conflict.

I mean, Lovelady remembered there being a woman when he came in the building. Well, was any effort made to identify this woman? No, of course not, because a study of the witness statements makes it pretty freakin' clear no women outside of Adams and Styles were by the back entrance of the depository in the minutes after the shooting.

And Shelley thought maybe he talked to Adams on the fourth floor. Well, was any effort made to back this up--by establishing the time Shelley was on the fourth floor, and the time Adams returned to the fourth floor, to see if these times over-lapped? Or even to ask Adams' co-workers who remained on the fourth floor to see if they recalled her talking to Shelley? No, of course not.

Because...Ball and Belin didn't want to know the truth. That much is clear, if nothing else.

Here, again, is the passage in the Warren Report in which they pretend to resolve this issue:

"Lovelady and Shelley moved out into the street. About this time Shelley saw Truly and Patrolman Baker go into the building. Shelley and Lovelady, at a fast walk or trot, turned west into the railroad yards and then to the west side of the Depository Building. They reentered the building by the rear door several minutes after Baker and Truly rushed through the front entrance. On entering, Lovelady saw a girl on the first floor who he believes was Victoria Adams. If Miss Adams accurately recalled meeting Shelley and Lovelady when she reached the bottom of the stairs, then her estimate of the time when she descended from the fourth floor is incorrect, and she actually came down the stairs several minutes after Oswald and after Truly and Baker as well. "

While Shelley testified to Baker and Truly's running up the front steps 3 or 4 minutes after the shooting, and Lovelady testified to Gloria Calvary's running up to Shelley and himself 3 minutes after the shooting (and that this happened before Baker and Truly ran up the steps), Ball and Belin knew they couldn't use this to discredit Adams, because they'd already performed a re-enactment of Baker's run to the steps, and had concluded it concluded around 15 seconds after the last shot, and not 3 or 4 minutes. So they relied instead on Shelley and Lovelady's estimates regarding how long they spent in the train yards.

But this, too, was a problem. And a pretty big one at that. While Shelley and Lovelady were purported to have told the FBI they spent 5-10 minutes in the train yards before re-entering the building, those claims were made in unsigned statements. So how did they testify? Well, when asked how long they spent by the railroad tracks, Shelley said he "wouldn't say over a minute or minute and a half" and Lovelady said "just a minute, maybe minute and a half."

Now, wait a second. It would have taken Shelley and Lovelady but 15 seconds or so to reach the train yards, and another 15 seconds or so to re-enter the building via the side door. And they had already left the steps when Baker and Truly ran up to the steps. So let's cut 5 seconds off that 30.

So...by their own approximation, Shelley and Lovelady were back inside the building within 85-115 seconds of Baker and Truly's entering the building (as opposed to the "several minutes" claimed in the report).

Well, this nearly overlaps with the re-enactment performed by Baker on 3-20-64, which Baker thought was a bit faster than it had been in reality.

That re-enactment placed Baker on the second floor 60-75 seconds after entering the building. As it would take but 8 seconds or so to climb the stairs from the bottom of the elevators to the second floor, furthermore, this put Baker and Truly at the back elevators 52-67 seconds after entering the building.

Well, that's just 18 seconds or so before Shelley and Lovelady said they were near the back elevators.

Now, okay, Shelley and Lovelady would have to have been there 10 seconds or more before Baker and Truly ran up to be seen by Adams, and not have Adams see Baker and Truly, so that's 28 seconds.

Which is pretty damned close, when you think of it. I mean, Shelley and Lovelady thought they re-entered the side of the building 85-115 seconds after Baker and Truly entered the front of the building. Let's say they were wrong. And that it was more like 71 seconds.

Now let's add-in that Belin's re-enactment (which Baker thought was on the short side) placed Baker by the back elevators 75 seconds or so after he entered the building. Well, what if he was wrong? And that it was more like 89 seconds?

Well, that gives Shelley and Lovelady an 18 second window in which to get to the back of the building, be addressed by Adams and Styles, and observe Baker and Truly run up to the elevators.

That's right, a 14-second mis-estimation on the part of both Belin/Baker, and Shelley/Lovelady, changes everything.

Now consider the opposite. For Adams to have been wrong, and for her to have descended AFTER Baker and Truly ran up the steps, she would have to have been off by 90 seconds or so in her estimation, that is, what she thought took 60 seconds or so would have to have taken 150 seconds or so.

And not just her, but Lovelady. Let's recall that Lovelady placed his return into the building at 85-115 seconds after Baker and Truly entered the building, and that he thought he saw Adams upon entering.

Well, the scenario propped up in the Warren Report holds that he, too, was wrong, and that he'd really returned 165-180 seconds after Baker and Truly entered the building.

So what makes more sense? That the re-enactment and the recollections of Shelley and Lovelady were slightly off, or that the recollections of Lovelady and Adams were far off--not even close?

I mean, this isn't rocket science. Ball and Belin had to choose between two scenarios--one in which the estimates of Baker, Shelley and Lovelady were slightly off and one in which the estimates of Adams and Lovelady (and presumably Styles who they never bothered to interview) were far off, and they choose the latter and refused to investigate further.

They believed because they wanted to believe--or, more accurately, disbelieved because they wanted to disbelieve.

If Adams was on the stairs when she claimed, it shot a hole in their belief Oswald ran downstairs, which in turn shot a hole in their belief he fired the shots, which in turn shot a hole in their belief Jack Dougherty was on the elevator that descended while Baker and Truly were running up the stairs.

In other words, Vickie Adams, much as Arnold Rowland, Jack Dougherty and Eddie Piper, was an obstacle to the goals of the commission, that needed to be smashed.

AND SO...One might more than wonder if it was just a coincidence that FBI photo 9--the one showing the warehouse phone presumably used by Shelley upon his return to the building--and the one right by where Vickie Adams said she saw him--was a mis-labeled mess, at least as presented within the commission's records...one might suspect foul play.

And I know. That might seem a bit of a stretch. Photos get mislabeled and are sometimes badly reproduced, etc...

But...there was no upside in the commission letting the public see this phone.

Let's recall here that Pierce Allman claimed he'd arrived at this phone (a phone in "an open area," according to Allman, and a phone "by a pillar," according to MacNeill) shortly after the assassination, and that no one was around when he came in besides the person now presumed to have been Oswald.

Well, think about it. Allman, who has become semi-famous for 1) running into Oswald as he came in the building, and 2) claiming all the shots came from the building, and that Oswald must have acted alone, is actually one of the best witnesses for Oswald's innocence. He would have to have arrived on the scene within a few minutes to have bumped into Oswald. And yet he would almost certainly have noticed, or been noticed by, Adams, Styles, Shelley and Lovelady, should THEY have come through the side door, or down the stairs, after his arrival at the location of the phone.

Well, it follows, then, that they had skedaddled BEFORE Allman came into the building, and not after. Allman, let's remember, stayed on the phone for 25 minutes or so...

And that means they had skedaddled BEFORE Oswald reached the front door, where Allman asked him about a phone...

With regard to the phones. Allman took the phone by the pillar while MacNeill took the one in Shelley's office I suspect. MacNeill was time stamped as being on the phone at 12:34. Then he ran out of the building to hitch a ride to Parkland. As this phone was now free, this is the phone I suspect Shelley used to call his wife.

So you believe Shelley used the phone in his office before MacNeill rather than after MacNeill?

[Andrej Stancak]

On 8/11/2023 at 5:58 AM, Pat Speer said:

Nope. The very films you claim show Oswald on the front steps show Shelley and Lovelady race towards the train yards. They were not stopped by cops. They then came back in through the side so Shelley could call his wife. 

And we know this took a minute or so because... 

1. Adams said she saw them when she came down from above, and placed them near a phone.

2. Shelley said he saw her but couldn't remember when...and this would have been the only time that made sense. 

3. Lovelady said he saw a girl when he came in but he couldn't say for sure if it was Vickie, and Adams and Styles were the only girls to be at the back of the building at the time.

4. Baker said he saw two white men at the back of the building when he came in, and Shelley and Lovelady are the only two that make sense.

'5. Shelley said Truly asked him to guard the elevator. As Truly went upstairs within two minutes of the shots, and didn't come down till 7 or 8 minutes later, when cops were pouring in the building, this only makes sense if Shelley and Lovelady were the two men at the back of the building.

6. Sawyer said he came In at 4 minutes or so after the shooting, and was escorted up to the fourth floor by an employee waiting near the front elevator.

7. Shelley said he escorted a cop up to the fourth floor shortly after the shots. It is clear this cop was Sawyer. 

Now, it is quite telling, IMO, that Ball/Belin never created a timeline of the movements of the employees. If they had it would have been clear Shelley and Lovelady were on the first floor within a minute or so of the shots, and saw Adams come down...BEFORE Baker and Truly reached the back of the building.

8. This fact was supported, moreover, by Lovelady, who told the HSCA he saw Baker and Truly run up the stairs. Well, huh, in the WC scenario he was outside at the time. 

 

PS: The very films you claim show Oswald on the front steps show Shelley and Lovelady race towards the train yards.

AS: I do not assert that any of the JFKA films shows Oswald on the front steps during the shooting. My work is about testing every possible physical aspect of Prayer Man' figure and checking if any of his features would disprove the possibility of Oswald being Prayer Man. So far, every Prayer Man's feature tested complies with Lee Oswald's figure and appearance. I have challenged everyone to point to just one Prayer Man's feature that would exclude Oswald as a candidate; so far, no one came up with any such feature.

The two men seen in Couch film (that has been spliced with Darnell film) have been discussed thoroughly on this Forum. I have analysed their figures and came to a conclusion that the two men were not Shelley and Lovelady because the one wearing a coat was taller than the man wearing a plead shirt; however, in reality Lovelady was taller than Shelley. Further, it appears in the last frames of Couch film showing the two men that the two men actually went different directions; they did not continue walking together. 

Couch film does show Carl Jones walking toward the curb in front of the building though. Carl Jones was the tall Afro-American man standing on the lower steps in the west part of the doorway. Thus, he would be the first from among the doorway occupants to be seen in front of the doorway. The people on the top landing would logically appear after Carl Jones. To repeat, Darnell shows the man wearing a dark suit and dark tie in the center of the top landing and this is the same man seen in Altgens6 and Wiegman. This location was Shelley's location according to his and other witnesses testimonies.     

PS: 2. Shelley said he saw her but couldn't remember when...and this would have been the only time that made sense. AS: To continue with what Shelley said about meeting Vicky Adams in his WC testimony:

Ball: Did you ever see Vickie Adams? Shelley: I saw her that day but I don’t remember where I saw her. //AS: this does not support meeting her at the back of the first floor

Ball: You don’t remember whether you saw her when you came back?

Shelley: It was after we entered the building. 

Ball: You think you did see her after you entered the building?

Shelley: Yes sir; I thought it was on the fourth floor awhile after that. //AS: So, not even on the first floor, rather on the 4th floor...

Shelley's report does not suggest he met Vicky Adams on the first floor in less than a minute after the last shot.

PS:  3. Lovelady said he saw a girl when he came in but he couldn't say for sure if it was Vickie, and Adams and Styles were the only girls to be at the back of the building at the time.

AS: Lovelady was clearly led by Ball to say he met Vicky Adams after he and Shelley returned to the building. It was a common practice with the WC that the commissioner went through all questions with the interviewee before the interview proper; when he was satisfied with the answers, commissionaer would ask a witness to repeat his/her answers without adding anything. This explains the illogical mentioning of Vicky Adams by Lovelady in his WC testimony:

Lovelady: I saw a girl but I wouldn’t swear to it it’s Vickie. //AS: Lovelady already knew Ball was interested in Vicky Adams only.

Ball: Who is Vickie?

Lovelady: The girl that works for Scott, Foresman.

Ball: What is her full name? Lovelady: I wouldn’t know.

Ball: Vickie Adams?

Lovelady: I believe so.

Ball: Would you say it was Vickie you saw?

Lovelady: I couldn’t swear. //AS: This was a polite way to say he did not identifiy her as a person he talked to.

Ball: Where was the girl?

Lovelady: I don’t remember what place she was but I remember seeing a girl and she was talking to Bill or saw Bill or something, then I went over and asked one of the guys what time it was and to see if we should continue working or what. //AS: Apparently, Lovelady saw a girl as she was having a conversation with Shelley. But Lovelady and Shelley came in together, and Shelley cold not have time to initiate a conversation with someone else. Lovelady would have to unsee Shelley first for a while and then rediscover him in a new scene.

Ball: Did you see any other people on the first floor?

Lovelady: Oh, yes; by that time there were more; a few of the guys had come in. //AS: Not naming anyone. Thus, the only person Ball was interested in was Vicky Adams. 

PS: Baker said he saw two white men at the back of the building when he came in, and Shelley and Lovelady are the only two that make sense.

AS: The only solution which makes sense is that Baker's testimony contains an honest or dishonest error. He said he had seen two white man; however, there was only one man, Eddie Piper, on the first floor during the time of shooting. Vicky Adams correctly reported in Barry Ernest's book seeing a black man when she reached the first floor.

PS: '5. Shelley said Truly asked him to guard the elevator. As Truly went upstairs within two minutes of the shots, and didn't come down till 7 or 8 minutes later, when cops were pouring in the building, this only makes sense if Shelley and Lovelady were the two men at the back of the building.

AS: Truly was back from the 7th floor within about 7 minutes after the last shot. There were a large number of people on the first floor, police officers and newsmen, and this was the time when Truly asked Shelley to operate the elevator.

PS: 6. Sawyer said he came In at 4 minutes or so after the shooting, and was escorted up to the fourth floor by an employee waiting near the front elevator.

AS: It could well be Bill Shelley if it was 4 minutes after the last shot.

PS: 7. Shelley said he escorted a cop up to the fourth floor shortly after the shots. It is clear this cop was Sawyer. 

AS: Why not? Shelley was back in the building about 3-4 minutes after the last shot and could have assisted Sawyer.

PS: Now, it is quite telling, IMO, that Ball/Belin never created a timeline of the movements of the employees. If they had it would have been clear Shelley and Lovelady were on the first floor within a minute or so of the shots, and saw Adams come down...BEFORE Baker and Truly reached the back of the building.

AS: Had they created a timeline of movements of all relevant people, it would turn out Oswald could not get from the 6th floor to the 2nd floor without beeing seen or heard by Vicky Adams, Sandra Styles, Mrs Garner, and couple of other people. This is the reason they never created a timeline. Had they created a timeline, Shelley's and Lovelady's trajectories would be completely irrelevant because their trajectories would be outside the critical time window of about 90 seconds after the last shot.

PS: 8. This fact was supported, moreover, by Lovelady, who told the HSCA he saw Baker and Truly run up the stairs. Well, huh, in the WC scenario he was outside at the time. 

AS: Lovelady saw Baker and Truly running up the steps (the doorway), not stairs (the stairwell in the back of the building). The HSCA's "stairs" appears to be an error. However, I would need to see a full transcript of Lovelady's HSCA testimony to be able to comment more. 

----------------------------------------------

Vicky Adam's testimony for the WC has been manipulated to disprove her timeline which was critical for the concocted theory of Oswald being a 6th floor assassin who descended to the 2nd floor with 90 seconds of the last shot.  The whole WC report was drafted with one aim: to pin all blame on one single person who was conveniently killed in the process. Changing Vicky Adams' testimony was a necessary step in this, and any traces that would reveal manipulation were destroyed. It was only thanks to the breakthrough research of Barry Ernest we got the true message about Vicky Adams. Not only the message, but also the insight into inner workings of WC. Briefly, Adams correctly told the WC she had seen a black man on the first floor, and this version was in the draft she authorised. None of the changes made by Vicky Adams in the draft she authorised were reflected in the official, printed account of her testimony. The sentences about Shelley and Lovelady were inserted into her testimony, and the inserted notes were then used to disprove her timeline in the final report.

It is sad that a pro-conspiracy researcher like yourself cannot see through this.

 

Edited August 12, 2023 by Andrej Stancak

[Pat Speer]

Let's review. The Stroud memo is a memo noting that Vickie Adams has reviewed and signed her testimony. The memo then notes that she talked to Dorothy Ann Garner who supported Adams' testimony. Well, there is a transcript in the archives and available online that reflects the changes described by Stroud that bears Adams' signature. 

It is bizarre, IMO, to hold that the signed transcript, with the changes described by Stroud, is a fake. The Stroud memo specifies that Adams signed the transcript. If one is to hold the first part of this memo is a fake, one should acknowledge that the second part--the problematic discussion of Garner--was included in a fake memo for no reason and in opposition to the supposed purpose of the memo. As it stands, Garner later confirmed what she'd told Stroud. So we have every reason to believe the memo is legit. 

As far as Adams, it should not be surprising to the members of this forum--most of whom are 50+--that a lot of people young and old deny saying or doing things that brought them grief. I know of a woman--a smoker back in the 60's--who accidentally set her kid's hair on fire while stretching her arm. For years she acknowledged it, and expressed remorse, but she later took to saying it was just a story told by her kid to get attention. That's what people do, as often as not. They filter their memories. Thus, we have seniors saying they never said stuff, or never handled specific pieces of evidence, etc. Well, sad to say, their latter-day denials just aren't reliable. 

P.S. The idea Adams' testimony was manipulated to discredit her re Shelley and Lovelady is also curious. Shelley and Lovelady's testimony placed them in the back part of the building within seconds of when Adams said she saw them. Ball/Belin knew this, because they'd run a re-enactment of Baker's run into the building which had him at the front steps in seconds, and both Shelley and Lovelady had said they were long gone at that time. It only makes sense, then, that if Adams' testimony was altered to make it seem she was wrong, that Shelley and Lovelady's testimony would have been altered as well to hide that they'd walked briskly around the building and had left the front steps well before Baker's arrival. Now, perhaps they'd thought Shelley and Lovelady's estimates were enough to sink Adams. But they were both lawyers, and knew damn well that witness' estimates of elapsed time in stressful situations are notoriously inaccurate. They had, after all, run a re-enactment of Baker's movements. That they failed to do so for Shelley and Lovelady, then, suggests what we should already know. That Ball/Belin were gunning for Adams, and were set on discrediting her. Still, that said, there was no reason to fake her testimony--which would have got them dis-barred should it ever have come to light. There was no reason to. Warren had given them permission to sculpt testimony by asking questions to see what could be a problem and then striking the problematic questions when on the record. In this case, Shelley and Lovelady may have answered questions off the record that would have been more supportive of Adams, that were as a result not asked when on the record. 

 

Edited August 12, 2023 by Pat Speer