Prayer Man More Than A Fuzzy Picture

[David Josephs]

On 8/5/2023 at 7:35 PM, Leslie Sharp said:

Does Bart reproduce Hosty's note?  When was Hosty's note written?  When was it made public?  I need to catch up here.

I'm trying to recall: I think the debate was related to architectural terms.

Have you posted the most current iteration of an image(s) of Prayer Man on EF recently?  If so, can you point me to the thread?  Ralph Cinque has posted photos on Facebook in the past few days.

 

@Pete Mellor 

On 8/5/2023 at 3:05 PM, Roger Odisio said:

I wonder if you could recount your take on Hosty's note which referred to Oswald as saying he "went outside to watch p parade"  after eating lunch. Seems straight forward.  Even Australians could understand it.  It's a crucial piece of evidence.  Am I missing something?

Bookout and Hosty were in the room together and listened to the questioning and both wrote reports that were typed up and signed by 11/23.  (See images at bottom of post)

Mr. SHELLEY - Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute.
Mr. BALL - Across the street, you mean directly south?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, slightly to the right, you know where the light is there?
Mr. BALL - Yes.

On 11-22 his statement has nothing to do with Lovelady, police officers, RR tracks or moving to the west end or rear of the TSBD to go back inside.

The phone he is talking about may be the one in his office...  Point is Shelley would not have been outside on the steps much after 12:30.

When would Oswald been able to come out and stand with him after his lunch and before/during/after the shooting?

 

Shelley claims to have left with Lovelady, and is seen very soon after at the rear of the TSBD by the loading dock and electrical panel.

Miss ADAMS - A tree. and we heard a shot, and it was a pause, and then a second shot, and then a third shot.
It sounded like a firecracker or a cannon at a football game, it seemed as if it came from the right below rather than from the left above. Possibly because of the report. And after the third shot, following that, the third shot, I went to the back of the building down the back stairs, and encountered Bill Shelley and Bill Lovelady on the first floor on the way out to the Houston Street dock.

It is my impression Shelley and Lovelady turned right at the opening between the TSBD and the parking and were at the back dock very quickly after the shooting.

 

  

Edited August 7, 2023 by David Josephs

[Pete Mellor]

3 hours ago, Mart Hall said:

the book is as cheap as chips and should have benefitted from a professional review/edit before it was published.

Mart, I'm busy with a number of interests and commitments, so I'm not quite half way through the book, one of four that I have on the go too.  As far as the text is concerned, and Bart is Dutch, and as he states English is his second language, I have so far only come across a couple of words to edit.

I am a fellow member of Dealey Plaza U.K., but I have no knowledge of any review/edit to his work prior to publication.  & as stated I'm under half way through, so too early to comment.  I assume Malcolm Blunt gave it the green light as he wrote a Foreword, apart from advice from a few sources it's all down to Bart.  

[Gerry Down]

4 hours ago, Mart Hall said:

I previously downloaded Bart's final version of the Anatomy of LHO Interrogations. It is 308 pages so I expect this is the essay that you are referring to. I can't upload it etc as it's 49MB. However I'd recommend buying his book as the essay is very thorough and well constructed, the book is as cheap as chips and should have benefitted from a professional review/edit before it was published.

Importantly there is a very good chance that Bart added to his essay from materials that he uncovered when he was digitising Malcolm's archives. 

 

 

Yeah I've got that essay. Must go through it yet, though I was disappointed to find there was no mention of Cadigan or the Recordak camera issue even though both he and Blunt often discuss those two issues in their YouTube videos. I guess those two issues are not directly related to LHOs interrogations.

The book sounds like it would be worth a go, though I'd have to skip through the prayerman stuff.

Does anyone know if Cadigan or the Recordak camera issue is in the book? Should be easy to locate it in the Kindle version.

[Pete Mellor]

On 8/7/2023 at 6:17 PM, Gerry Down said:

The book sounds like it would be worth a go, though I'd have to skip through the prayerman stuff.

Does anyone know if Cadigan or the Recordak camera issue is in the book? Should be easy to locate it in the Kindle version.

Cough the money Gerry.  Even the PM pages are very interesting, as Bart documents the long history of researchers who have examined the Weigman, Darnell & Couch stills.  I never knew it began in the late 60's!  Still not through the book but I reckon it's well worth the money.

I've searched Cadigan & Recordak with no items found.

[Gerry Down]

13 minutes ago, Pete Mellor said:

Cough the money Gerry.  Even the PM pages are very interesting, as Bart documents the long history of researchers who have examined the Weigman, Darnell & Couch stills.  I never knew it began in the late 60's!  Still not through the book but I reckon it's well worth the money.

I've searched Cadigan & Recordak with no items found.

Prob still worth a buy alright. Though I don't agree with some of his conclusions, Bart is a good researcher. And he does hit on some important points relevant to getting to the truth of the case.

[Pat Speer]

On 8/7/2023 at 6:40 AM, David Josephs said:

@Pete Mellor 

Bookout and Hosty were in the room together and listened to the questioning and both wrote reports that were typed up and signed by 11/23.  (See images at bottom of post)

Mr. SHELLEY - Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute.
Mr. BALL - Across the street, you mean directly south?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, slightly to the right, you know where the light is there?
Mr. BALL - Yes.

On 11-22 his statement has nothing to do with Lovelady, police officers, RR tracks or moving to the west end or rear of the TSBD to go back inside.

The phone he is talking about may be the one in his office...  Point is Shelley would not have been outside on the steps much after 12:30.

When would Oswald been able to come out and stand with him after his lunch and before/during/after the shooting?

 

Shelley claims to have left with Lovelady, and is seen very soon after at the rear of the TSBD by the loading dock and electrical panel.

Miss ADAMS - A tree. and we heard a shot, and it was a pause, and then a second shot, and then a third shot.
It sounded like a firecracker or a cannon at a football game, it seemed as if it came from the right below rather than from the left above. Possibly because of the report. And after the third shot, following that, the third shot, I went to the back of the building down the back stairs, and encountered Bill Shelley and Bill Lovelady on the first floor on the way out to the Houston Street dock.

It is my impression Shelley and Lovelady turned right at the opening between the TSBD and the parking and were at the back dock very quickly after the shooting.

 

  

FWIW, from studying the films, witness statements and testimony, it's clear to me that Lovelady and Shelley made a brisk walk around the outside of the building and entered through the west roll-up door while en route to a phone. They were then spotted by Adams, who quickly ran outside. They were then approached by Baker and Truly, who asked Shelley to guard the front elevator and stairs. This lasted but a minute or two. When Sawyer came in, Shelley took him up to the fourth floor. In any event, this puts Shelley at the bottom of the front stairs when Oswald is purported to have come down those stairs and exited the building. 

As a result, I suspect Oswald was telling the truth when he said he went outside with Shelley. I mean, they could have been chatting as they walked for a sec. So...did Shelley lie about this? I suspect so. Oswald was dead. The authorities said he was guilty. If Shelley were to have admitted he'd let Oswald pass or even said he could go home his life would have been severely disrupted, perhaps even ruined. 

[Andrej Stancak]

On 8/7/2023 at 2:40 PM, David Josephs said:

It is my impression Shelley and Lovelady turned right at the opening between the TSBD and the parking and were at the back dock very quickly after the shooting.

 

David:

There was another timing detail in William Shelley's testimony for the Warren Commission, just above the section you quoted:

Mr. SHELLEY. Sounded like a miniature cannon or baby giant firecracker,
wasn’t real loud.
Mr. BALL. What happened; what did you do then?
Mr. SHELLEY. I didn’t do anything for a minute.
Mr. BALL. What seemed to be the direction or source of the sound?
Mr. SHELLEY. Sounded like it came from the west.
Mr. BALL. It sounded like it came from the west?
Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Then what happened?
Mr. SHELLEY. Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back
up there crying and said “The President has been shot” and Billy Lovelady
and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there
for a minute.

Shelley's testimony is consistent with his presence in Darnell film at the centre of the top landing, the spot he occupied in Altgens6 and Wiegman too:

Thus, we have Shelley on the top landing for about a minute, his and Lovelady's walk toward the curb infront of the building, another minute they hung up there before returning to the building. This gives about a three minute period after the shooting during which neither Shelley nor Lovelady could be in the building. Therefore,Vicky Adams could not meet them as she and Sandra Styles walked through the back of the first floor about 30-45 seconds after the shooting.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 9, 2023 by Andrej Stancak

[James DiEugenio]

Nice work , all three of you, DJ, Pat and Andrej.

I am looking forward to this book when it comes out in paper.

Its the kind of volume I need to spend like 3 days with at Corner Bakery.

[Denny Zartman]

I'm a quarter of the way through the book right now. I'll reserve my opinion of the content for later, but I can say I feel it really needed illustrations and photos as part of the book file. Instead, they're links.

For links to individual online image files, the Kindle Paperwhite isn't bad, though of course limited to black and white only. For photos that are part of a webpage, it's not great. Full webpages are slow to load, hard to navigate, the images are small, and the text microscopic. And for videos it's no go. So, I think to get 100% out of the book, reading on a Kindle tablet or the Kindle app for PC (if that's even still a thing - I believe the Kindle app is no longer offered on phones) would be the ideal situation.

[Pete Mellor]

9 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

FWIW, from studying the films, witness statements and testimony, it's clear to me that Lovelady and Shelley made a brisk walk around the outside of the building and entered through the west roll-up door while en route to a phone. They were then spotted by Adams, who quickly ran outside. They were then approached by Baker and Truly, who asked Shelley to guard the front elevator and stairs. This lasted but a minute or two. When Sawyer came in, Shelley took him up to the fourth floor. In any event, this puts Shelley at the bottom of the front stairs when Oswald is purported to have come down those stairs and exited the building. 

As a result, I suspect Oswald was telling the truth when he said he went outside with Shelley. I mean, they could have been chatting as they walked for a sec. So...did Shelley lie about this? I suspect so. Oswald was dead. The authorities said he was guilty. If Shelley were to have admitted he'd let Oswald pass or even said he could go home his life would have been severely disrupted, perhaps even ruined. 

I'm with you on this Pat.

[Pete Mellor]

2 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

I am looking forward to this book when it comes out in paper.

Bart says at the end of this week.

[Andrej Stancak]

2 hours ago, Pete Mellor said:

This lasted but a minute or two.

As per my earlier post, Shelley himself testified in his WC testimony to remaining standing where he was (the top landing of the doorway) for about a minute after the last shot, to hearing Gloria Calvery while standing in the doorway, and only then going to the curb infront of the building where he again spent about a minute. We need to add about 30-60 seconds for his and Lovelady's walk back to the building. The total time of their excursion exceeds the time spent by Vicky Adams to descend from the 4th floor by a large margin. Thus, there is no chance that Vicky Adams could encounter Lovelady and Shelley right after she descended from the fourth floor.

[Adam Johnson]

All this ends with the statement of one still living person who was on the TSBD front steps facing Elm Street before, during and after the assassination....

What has Buell Wesley Frazier told us over the past 60 years about who was 4 feet away from him in these films????

Has or can anyone prove he has lied? 

Has anyone asked Buell if he has left a statement/recording/video with any attorney to be read out/shown to the public upon his passing?

A.J

 

[David Josephs]

6 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Thus, we have Shelley on the top landing for about a minute

I appreciate what you are claiming Andrej, I simply disagree with your identifying "tie-man" as Shelley when I believe it was Molina.  Shelley was rail thin. Molina was not...  That no one mentions him is quite odd.  He also says that there was no policeman with Truly entering the building

Mr. BALL. Did you see Mr. Truly go into the building?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Where were you when you saw him go into the building?
Mr. MOLINA. I was right in the entrance.
Mr. BALL. Did you see a police officer with him?
Mr. MOLINA. I didn't see a police officer. I don't recall seeing a police officer but I did see him go inside.
Mr. BALL. Did you see a white-helmeted police officer any time there in the entrance?
Mr. MOLINA. Well, of course, there might have been one after they secured the building, you know.

The problem I have with PM=LHO is the number of people walking past him, staring at him, etc as we see in the images you posted.  Frazier is basically staring at this man and says nothing.  

Prayerman is definitely there when Lovelady is seen in that landing watching the motorcade go by, so PM/LHO did not go out afterward but was there a good part of the time.

Mr. BALL. No, I mean when Truly went in; did you see Truly actually go into the building?
Mr. MOLINA. I saw him go in.
Mr. BALL. Where were you standing?
Mr. MOLINA. Right at the front door; right at the front door.
Mr. BALL. Outside the front door?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes, outside the front door I was standing; the door was right behind me.
Mr. BALL. Were you standing on the steps?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes, on the uppermost step.
Mr. BALL. You actually saw Truly go
Mr. MOLINA. Yeah.
Mr. BALL. You were still standing there?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes.
Mr. BALL. How long was it after you heard the shots?
Mr. MOLINA. Oh, I would venture to say maybe 20 or 30 seconds afterwards.
Mr. BALL. Had somebody come up and said the President was shot before
you saw Truly go in?
Mr. MOLINA. No.
Mr. BALL. Do you know a girl named Gloria Calvary?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Did Gloria come up?
Ms.. MOLINA. Yes, she came. I was in the lobby standing there and she came in with this other girl.
Mr. BALL. What did she say?
Mr. MOLINA. She said "Oh, my God, Joe, he's been shot." They were both horrified. I said "Are you sure he was shot?" She said "Oh, Joe ,I'm sure. I saw his hair fly up and I'm sure he was shot" something to that extent.
Mr. BALL. You left the building that day about what time and went home?

 

Mr. BALL. Then what happened?
Mr. SHELLEY. Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back
up there crying and said “The President has been shot” and Billy Lovelady
and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there
for a minute.

Mr. SHELLEY - Oh, several people were out there waiting to watch the motorcade and I went out to join them.
Mr. BALL - And who was out there?
Mr. SHELLEY - Well, there was Lloyd Viles of McGraw-Hill, Sarah Stanton, she's with Texas School Book, and Wesley Frazier and Billy Lovelady joined us shortly afterwards.
Mr. BALL - You were standing where?
Mr. SHELLEY - Just outside the glass doors there.
Mr. BALL - That would be on the top landing of the entrance?

Except that's not where Viles puts himself...  So Shelley l-ies about who was up there and then tells 2 stories about what happened afterward...   Shelley - Manager of the Miscellaneous Department under Truly.

 

Mr. BALL - When you stood out on the front looking at the parade, where was Shelley standing and where was Lovelady standing with reference to you?
Mr. FRAZIER - Well, see, I was standing, like I say, one step down from the top, and Mr. Shelley was standing, you know, back from the top step and over toward the side of the wall there. See, he was standing right over there, and then Billy was a couple of steps down from me over toward more the wall also.

Mr. BALL - Which is Commission's Exhibit No. 362. Can you come over here and show us about where you were standing?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir. Like I told you this was an entrance right here.

Problem as I see it is Frazier placing Lovelady down on the steps, himself down on a step when he does not appear in Altgens.  In the bottom right image Lovelady is at the center handrail and on the top step, from having been well over to the left in Hughes.

And MOLINA is up there the entire time, whereas Shelley tells a little fib and to who was up there and where he went.what he did afterward.

[Pat Speer]

5 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

As per my earlier post, Shelley himself testified in his WC testimony to remaining standing where he was (the top landing of the doorway) for about a minute after the last shot, to hearing Gloria Calvery while standing in the doorway, and only then going to the curb infront of the building where he again spent about a minute. We need to add about 30-60 seconds for his and Lovelady's walk back to the building. The total time of their excursion exceeds the time spent by Vicky Adams to descend from the 4th floor by a large margin. Thus, there is no chance that Vicky Adams could encounter Lovelady and Shelley right after she descended from the fourth floor.

As stated, my conclusion comes from a study of the films, statements and testimony. Shelley and Lovelady left the front steps within seconds. Although they made varying estimates as to how long they spent outside, Lovelady made clear they spent more time at the front of the building than they did overlooking the tracks. This puts them then at the back of the building within a minute or two. As Shelley said he came in and called his wife, and Adams placed them by the phone when she came down, and Baker said he saw two white men standing at the back of the building when he ran in, it all adds up. Further cementing this, moreover, is that Shelley said Truly told him to guard the front elevator. Well, when did this conversation take place? Baker and Truly were (officially) upstairs when Shelley came in, and didn't come down for 5-10 minutes, so that's a problem. And Sawyer came in at 4 minutes or so after the shooting and said someone took him up to the fourth via the front elevator. Well, this was obviously Shelley, who said he took a police officer up to the fourth. Now, here's the kicker. Sawyer and Baker acknowledged seeing each other on the fourth as Sawyer came down with Truly. So...Shelley was on the fourth floor when Truly came down from the roof. Well, would Truly tell Shelley to guard the front elevator when Shelley was on the fourth floor at the back of the building, and the building was rapidly filling with police officers?  Nope. Shelley's statements and a number of other statements (such as Lovelady's remembering that he saw a girl after they came in but he couldn't swear it was Vicky Adams) only make sense when one pieces it together and realizes Shelley and Lovelady did in fact arrive at the back of the building before Baker and Truly, and even before Adams. 

And we have reason to suspect Ball and Belin knew this, moreover, and conspired to hide this from the public. I mean, I don't think it's a coinkydink that they pressured Shelley and Lovelady into shooting down Adams but NEVER made any real attempts at establishing a timeline regarding Shelley and Lovelady's movements, such as asking them if they saw Baker and Truly before they went upstairs, or Truly if he saw them in the building before he went upstairs. (FWIW, when interviewed by the HSCA, Shelley did, yessiree, indicate he saw Baker and Truly run upstairs.) 

(This is is all discussed in detail in my chapter Pinning the Tale on the Oswald.) 

 

Edited August 9, 2023 by Pat Speer