Edwin Lopez: Oswald never visited embassies in Mexico City

[Gerry Down]

On 8/16/2023 at 4:58 AM, Larry Hancock said:

And on two occasions, once when Hosty spoke at a Lancer conference and later in my personal exchanges with him, he described that his FBI friends in Mexico City had spoken with him about Oswald being under surveillance when he was there.....

I wonder if Hosty took his FBI friends up wrong. His FBI friends could have meant "we" had Oswald under surveillance in Mexico meaning "we", the United States, had Oswald under surveillance in Mexico City. 

[Paul Jolliffe]

On 8/14/2023 at 3:39 PM, Sandy Larsen said:

Regarding the Mexico City incident....

The totality of Mexico City evidence indicates that CIA plotters fabricated the Mexico City trip out of thin air to make it look like Oswald and his accomplices went by car to Mexico City in order to meet with Russians and Cubans to arrange the assassination of Kennedy. This fake story was meant to implicate Oswald as leader of the hit team in America, and KGB agents Valeriy Kostikov and Nikolai Leonov as his Russian contacts in Mexico City. (According to the CIA, Kostikov was supposedly the KGB's assassination's chief and Leonov was supposedly in charge of spreading communism to the western hemisphere.)

While there, Oswald collected $6500 down payment for the hit. But like almost everything else, this didn't really happen. An informant just said it did.

The only things that really happened were 1) some phone calls made to the Cuban and Russian consulates, and 2) a small, blond, Oswald imposter entered the Cuban Consulate a few times. The Cuban Consulate employees thought he was Oswald and was there trying to get a Russian Visa. But the CIA plotters intended for the FBI to think he was Nikolai Leonov and was involved in the assassination plot.

Sylvia Duran, a Cuban Consulate employee, was also a target of this CIA plot. Unfortunately for the plotters, the Mexican police interrogated her and word got back to the FBI that the guy they were supposed to believe was Nikolai Leonov was actually the Oswald impersonator.

The CIA plotter's purpose for the fake phone calls was to alert the FBI to Oswald's (supposed) connection to the (fake) Mexico City story, so they would investigate it. But that became irrelevant since the FBI had already learned of Oswald's imposter from Sylvia Duran's interrogation by the Mexican Police.

The coverup....

J. Edgar Hoover assumed that the Mexico City trip really happened but ignored the Cuban/Russian plot. He also removed the automobile trip and Oswald's companions in order to avoid any talk of conspiracy. He and the Mexican authorities fabricated the bus trips to take the place of the automobile.

Notes....

Note that the CIA plotters didn't care if Oswald was seen watching the presidential parade. They had painted him is a ringleader, not a shooter.

One of his shooters in the TSBD used a Mauser. This was part of the plot. The Carcano was part of the coverup.

 

Sandy,

 

If I follow you correctly (a big "if"), then the plotters impersonated Nikolai Leonov pretending to be our "Oswald". But the FBI saw through the ruse.

OK.

How did the FBI know for sure that Nikolai Leonov had not actually pretended to be "Oswald"?

(Note that I don't believe that the USSR had anything to do with the assassination, nor do I think the KGB was using "Oswald" as any sort of witting asset.)

But the Mexican Security Service did turn over pictures to the HSCA in the 1970's of a blond man who bore a remarkable resemblance to Leonov!

 

Blond Man: 

Nikolai Leonov: 

 

The blond Oswald in Mexico - JFK Assassination Debate - The Education Forum (ipbhost.com)

 

 

[Paul Jolliffe]

23 hours ago, Leslie Sharp said:

I'm particularly interested in the Helsinki leg of the trip which coincided with a global youth fest as I recall?  Are you familiar with that storyline?

What are the odds that Billy Lord graduated a few years before George W. Bush at the same Midland, Texas High School? and a classmate of Lord's is photographed with George de Mohrenschilldt on Travis St. with George and Jeanne's little wire haired terrier.  (as a personal anecdote:  the Travis St. address is in the same block as an apartment occupied by a receptionist at Professional Travel Service located at Two Turtle Creek in the early 1970s; one of our agency contractor's was the wife of de M's buddy Bruce Calder and on at least one occasion he and George came into the 7th floor office to pick Mitzi up for lunch.)

Wilson-Hudson is one of those characters who the government alleged was "unstable," "crazy," etc., yet for some reason, DCI George H. W. Bush took the time to commit to record:
 

John Wilson-Hudson: To underscore the potential significance of Wilson-Hudson to the investigation into the 1963 assassination of President Kennedy: Memorandum For: Director of Central Intelligence, From: John H. Waller, Inspector General, Subject: Jack Anderson Reference to 28 November 1963 CIA Cable.  “ . . . The dissemination was based on a 27 November 1963 cable from London . . . raising a question as to his [John Wilson-Hudson] reliability . . . “ The undated memo was from the CIA IG to Director of Central Intelligence George Herbert Walker Bush. www.maryferrell.org

 

United States. Congress. House. Select Committee on Assassinations. Investigation Of the Assassination of President John F. Kennedy: Hearings before the Select Committee on Assassinations of the US House of Representatives, Ninety-Fifth Congress, Second Session. Washington : US Govt. Print. Off., 19781979.

(734) A memorandum from the deputy director of plans of the CIA to the FBI provided additional information about John Wilson Hudson. (670) A “usually reliable source” reported on August 8, 1951, that Carl John Wilson Hudson was a Spanish citizen of British descent residing in Chile and a contact of Bert Sucharov, a suspected Soviet agent in Santi-ago, Chile. (671) Wilson was born in Liverpool, England, on December 29, 1916. (672) After arriving in Chile in 1939, in his capacity of journalist Wilson reportedly be n “a one-man crusade against the British Government.” (673) Anogfiar source described as “usually reliable” and “whose inform-ation was evaluated as “possibly true” reported in 1952 that Wilson was “very probably an intelligence agent.” (674) _

(735) It was also reported by a “usually reliable source” that on June 18, 1959, Carl John Wilson, a British journalist, sent a cable to the British Parliament and the British Trade Union Federation claiming he had confirmed that the U.S. military attachés in the Caribbean were providing military advice to dictators. In this cable, Wilson reportedly protested these actions “in the name of humanity.” (675) Another report from another “usually reliable source” stated that Wilson was involved in a planned attack from Cuba on Puerto Cabezas, Nicaragua, during the weekend of June 27–28, 1959. (676) Associated Press reported on July 1, 1959, that the Cuban home of Capt. Paul Hughes was raided, leading to the seizure of:

A large arms cache and air-sea invasion plans and the detention of two other Americans, a British journalist, several Cubans, and nearly 200 would be members of an expeditionary force against the regime of Nicaraguan President Luis Somoza. (677)

The article stated that “the British subject was identified as Carl John Wilson, a freelance journalist who had been in Havana several weeks.” (678)

(736) The committee was unable to locate John Wilson Hudson. In response to the committee’s inquiries, the Metropolitan Police in London, England, contacted unspecified government agencies, but these efforts were unsuccessful. (679) It has been alleged that Hudson is dead. (680) Analysis

(742) It has not been possible to corroborate the allegation that Ruby visited Trafficante at Trescornia. John Wilson Hudson was not located, and Trafficante denied any such meeting, although he did recall an individual fitting Hudson’s description. José Verdacia also recalled a British journalist who was at Trescornia.

 

 

What are the odds that this same Billy Lord would be so harrassed in January of 1977 by non-governmental "investigators" seeking to "locate, interview, monitor and influence every single person who ever knew Lee Oswald . . . " that he, Billy Lord, would seek relief from no less than President Carter?

And that one of those doing the harrassing would be the son of the then CIA director (George H.W Bush) and himself a future president of the United States, George W. Bush? 

[Gerry Down]

4 hours ago, Gerry Down said:

I wonder if Hosty took his FBI friends up wrong. His FBI friends could have meant "we" had Oswald under surveillance in Mexico meaning "we", the United States, had Oswald under surveillance in Mexico City. 

By "United States" surveillance I'm referring to the surveillance being carried out by the CIA station on the two embassies which happened to pick up LHOs interaction with them.

[David Josephs]

2 hours ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

How did the FBI know for sure that Nikolai Leonov had not actually pretended to be "Oswald"?

"While there he was photographed several times In the company of CASTRO and KRUSCHEV, and supposedly served as CASTRO's interpreter. LEONOV's principal task in Mexico City has been the smuggling of arms to insurgent groups in Latin America, especially Guatemala."
 

My understanding is the FBI only knew what the CIA told them about 9/27-10/3 and about what occurred at the Embassies and supposedly caught on tape.  And given the amount of surveillance and his closeness with Castro, those at the Cuban Embassy would probably be aware of LEONOV.  Also, he was 5'7".

The strange thing is the argument Duran mentions in her testimony below is that AZCUE's job was to recruit doubles.  To turn Americans, especially those showing disdain to the US and wanting to leave.  Azcue would have spent time to see if this was a penetration agent - or a potential asset.   Instead he and Duran claim there was a heated argument with yelling and screaming with "Oswald" being thrown out at the end...  the exact opposite of what should have occurred.

Note: The day after Phillips arrived in MX the Sept 1963 Monthly Summary report goes out recapping all of the important leads their tapping efforts produced.  We do not see a single word about an American anywhere... Here is the Sept report:  and an older one explaining what info LIENVOY exploits including looking for "English speaking persons". ie Albert Kennedy.  Contemporaneous reports - and the fact nothing was reported related to all that occurs on the 27th and 28th of Sept - suggests to me the entire thing was a charade.

Whether anyone was ever there, and this was run entirely by either Cuban, Mexican, CIA, or FBI forces - or a combination thereof - with all the scenarios simply created out of thin air...  LITAMIL-9 & 7 report no signs of Oswald - and these were the CIA within the Embassy itself.

There may have been a person making those first calls on Friday morning, but the images used for that application were not the same as those used on the 27th, they matched the man there - if there was, not Oswald.

 

 

DURAN (Letter C.) replying to a call from the Soviet compound saying that yes, the "man" is there now.  This at 4:26pm...  and in direct conflict to Duran's claim he never returned - testimony below.

 

.   

 

All the FBI found via PECK and OCHOA was that there was no sign of Oswald in MX during that week.  So if he did meet with Davis at the LUNA, it was either very quick, or very very quiet.

More importantly are the transcripts.  After the initial calls on the morning of the 27th, there is no more contact between "Oswald" and the Embassies/Duran.  The remaining calls, including the man at the Embassy, were not of Oswald/Duran.

Cornwell Is it possible that, in addition to his visits on Friday, he also came back the following day on Saturday mourning?
TIRADO - No.
CORNWELL - How can you be sure of that?
TIRADO - Because, uh, I told you before, that it was easy to remember, because not all the Americans that came there were married with a Russian woman, they have live(d) in Russian and uh, we didn't used to fight with those people because if you, they came for going to Cuba, so apparently they were friends, no? So we were nice to them, with this man we fight, I mean we had a hard discussion so we didn't want to have anything to do with him.
CORNWELL - Okay. I understand that but I don't understand how that really answers the question. In other words, the question is, what is it about the events that makes you sure that he did not come back on Saturday, and have another conversation with you?
TIRADO - Because I remember the fight. So if he (come) back, I would have remembered.
CORNWELL - Did Azcue work on Saturdays?
TIRADO - Yes, we used to work in the office but not for the public.
CORNWELL - Was there a guard, was there a guard out here at the corner near number seven on your diagram on Saturdays?
TIRADO - Excuse me?
CORNWELL - Was there a doorman out near the area that you marked as number seven, on the diagram?
TIRADO - Yes, but on Saturday he never let people ...
CORNWELL - Never let people in.
TIRADO - No.

 

63-12-02 Olga Prjevalinskiy FERRER Porf Russian-Spanish NEW ORLEANS Met with LEONOV KGB Arms Smuggler in Mexico till Sept 17 104-10408-10335.pdf

[Leslie Sharp]

8 hours ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

What are the odds that this same Billy Lord would be so harrassed in January of 1977 by non-governmental "investigators" seeking to "locate, interview, monitor and influence every single person who ever knew Lee Oswald . . . " that he, Billy Lord, would seek relief from no less than President Carter?

And that one of those doing the harrassing would be the son of the then CIA director (George H.W Bush) and himself a future president of the United States, George W. Bush? 

I had forgotten this letter.  Thanks for the heads up. I wonder if items 1-4 remain redacted? 

Random thoughts:
What can we read into, if anything, the Iranians in Midland in 1977? The revolution and  hostage crisis were months away.  I know a number of Iranian professionals  settled in West Texas decades later, likely drawn there for training or to provide oil industry expertise; Arbusto Energy as just getting off the ground in '77,  James Bath with ties to the bin Laden Group, and GWB.  

GHWB was agency director in September 1976 when Lord's place was ransacked. There are a number of documents in the agency files from that period created by IG Waller that suggest George HW was on a mission of either clean-up or perhaps falsification of records?  Was GWBush on a specific mission for his father when Lord was approached?

note: Bill Dalzell - known associate of Ed Butler of INCA in New Orleans, worked briefly for Bush in the Permian Basin.
 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 18, 2023 by Leslie Sharp

[Paul Jolliffe]

12 hours ago, David Josephs said:

"While there he was photographed several times In the company of CASTRO and KRUSCHEV, and supposedly served as CASTRO's interpreter. LEONOV's principal task in Mexico City has been the smuggling of arms to insurgent groups in Latin America, especially Guatemala."
 

My understanding is the FBI only knew what the CIA told them about 9/27-10/3 and about what occurred at the Embassies and supposedly caught on tape.  And given the amount of surveillance and his closeness with Castro, those at the Cuban Embassy would probably be aware of LEONOV.  Also, he was 5'7".

The strange thing is the argument Duran mentions in her testimony below is that AZCUE's job was to recruit doubles.  To turn Americans, especially those showing disdain to the US and wanting to leave.  Azcue would have spent time to see if this was a penetration agent - or a potential asset.   Instead he and Duran claim there was a heated argument with yelling and screaming with "Oswald" being thrown out at the end...  the exact opposite of what should have occurred.

Note: The day after Phillips arrived in MX the Sept 1963 Monthly Summary report goes out recapping all of the important leads their tapping efforts produced.  We do not see a single word about an American anywhere... Here is the Sept report:  and an older one explaining what info LIENVOY exploits including looking for "English speaking persons". ie Albert Kennedy.  Contemporaneous reports - and the fact nothing was reported related to all that occurs on the 27th and 28th of Sept - suggests to me the entire thing was a charade.

Whether anyone was ever there, and this was run entirely by either Cuban, Mexican, CIA, or FBI forces - or a combination thereof - with all the scenarios simply created out of thin air...  LITAMIL-9 & 7 report no signs of Oswald - and these were the CIA within the Embassy itself.

There may have been a person making those first calls on Friday morning, but the images used for that application were not the same as those used on the 27th, they matched the man there - if there was, not Oswald.

 

 

DURAN (Letter C.) replying to a call from the Soviet compound saying that yes, the "man" is there now.  This at 4:26pm...  and in direct conflict to Duran's claim he never returned - testimony below.

 

.   

 

All the FBI found via PECK and OCHOA was that there was no sign of Oswald in MX during that week.  So if he did meet with Davis at the LUNA, it was either very quick, or very very quiet.

More importantly are the transcripts.  After the initial calls on the morning of the 27th, there is no more contact between "Oswald" and the Embassies/Duran.  The remaining calls, including the man at the Embassy, were not of Oswald/Duran.

Cornwell Is it possible that, in addition to his visits on Friday, he also came back the following day on Saturday mourning?
TIRADO - No.
CORNWELL - How can you be sure of that?
TIRADO - Because, uh, I told you before, that it was easy to remember, because not all the Americans that came there were married with a Russian woman, they have live(d) in Russian and uh, we didn't used to fight with those people because if you, they came for going to Cuba, so apparently they were friends, no? So we were nice to them, with this man we fight, I mean we had a hard discussion so we didn't want to have anything to do with him.
CORNWELL - Okay. I understand that but I don't understand how that really answers the question. In other words, the question is, what is it about the events that makes you sure that he did not come back on Saturday, and have another conversation with you?
TIRADO - Because I remember the fight. So if he (come) back, I would have remembered.
CORNWELL - Did Azcue work on Saturdays?
TIRADO - Yes, we used to work in the office but not for the public.
CORNWELL - Was there a guard, was there a guard out here at the corner near number seven on your diagram on Saturdays?
TIRADO - Excuse me?
CORNWELL - Was there a doorman out near the area that you marked as number seven, on the diagram?
TIRADO - Yes, but on Saturday he never let people ...
CORNWELL - Never let people in.
TIRADO - No.

 

63-12-02 Olga Prjevalinskiy FERRER Porf Russian-Spanish NEW ORLEANS Met with LEONOV KGB Arms Smuggler in Mexico till Sept 17 104-10408-10335.pdf 148.65 kB · 0 downloads

Thanks, David.

So, to sum up as I understand it:

a. There is no evidence to support the WC's conclusion that our "Oswald" went by bus to Mexico City. (Your previous work on that is quite definitive as far as I can tell.)

b. There is no good evidence to support the CIA's claim that our "Oswald" went to either the Cuban or Soviet consulates in Mexico City on either Friday, September 27 or Saturday, September 28, 1963. (No surveillance tapes or photos.)

c. CIA procedures about "English-speaking persons" having contact with either the Cubans or the Soviets in Mexico City should have resulted in CIA documents about any such encounters, if any actually occurred. But the September summary report for Mexico City makes no mention of anything on the 27th or the 28th. 

d. Sylvia Duran's recollection about the number of visits by the suspicious man on the 27th is shaky - she swore he only came to the consulate once (in the morning), but in the transcript of the phone call to the Soviets in the afternoon, she said that "yes, he is here now", implying the man in question had returned. 

(I am not sure that is particularly important. By the time she testified to the HSCA, she may have honestly forgotten or blurred together the details of the man's visit/s.)

e. Someone else may (MAY) have visited the Cuban consulate on Friday morning, September 27, and the later statements of both Azcue and Duran were based on their recollections of their encounter with that man (whoever he was, and whoever he may have pretended to be at that moment.) 

f. The extant picture of "Oswald" attached to the visa application was not the same one originally attached. It must have been switched out later, right?

g. Key question: Did the visitor on the 27th actually resemble Nikolai Leonov, and if not, then why did the Mexican Security Service turn over pictures of someone who did resemble him to the HSCA?

Did anyone at the HSCA ever show pictures of Nikolai Leonov to either Duran or Azcue and ask if he resembled the man who (supposedly) came to the Cuban consulate on the 27th? If the HSCA did not ask, why not?

h. If the entire encounter at the Cuban consulate on the 27th was a total fabrication out of thin air, dreamed up later by David Atlee Phillips in the CIA, then what could possibly explain the adamant stories told under oath (and in spite of torture!) by both Duran and Azcue for decades to come?

To me, Duran and Azcue come across as real witnesses to a real encounter with someone (but not our "Oswald") at the Cuban consulate on the 27th. 

i. Last question:

In what language, Spanish or English, was the man on the 27th speaking while at the Cuban consulate? When Duran called the Soviets later on the 27th, what language did she speak on the phone, Spanish or Russian?

Is it possible the lack of any mention of the man/Duran/Azcue incident on the 27th in the CIA summary report for September was because the entire encounter was in Spanish? (And that the CIA was unaware when the monthly summary was written, a few days later presumably, that the (Spanish-speaking?) visitor to the Cuban consulate on the 27th had claimed to be an American?)

Is that even possible?

Thanks, David. 

 

[David Josephs]

1 hour ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

g. Key question: Did the visitor on the 27th actually resemble Nikolai Leonov, and if not, then why did the Mexican Security Service turn over pictures of someone who did resemble him to the HSCA?

Did anyone at the HSCA ever show pictures of Nikolai Leonov to either Duran or Azcue and ask if he resembled the man who (supposedly) came to the Cuban consulate on the 27th? If the HSCA did not ask, why not?

h. If the entire encounter at the Cuban consulate on the 27th was a total fabrication out of thin air, dreamed up later by David Atlee Phillips in the CIA, then what could possibly explain the adamant stories told under oath (and in spite of torture!) by both Duran and Azcue for decades to come?

To me, Duran and Azcue come across as real witnesses to a real encounter with someone (but not our "Oswald") at the Cuban consulate on the 27th. 

i. Last question:

In what language, Spanish or English, was the man on the 27th speaking while at the Cuban consulate? When Duran called the Soviets later on the 27th, what language did she speak on the phone, Spanish or Russian?

Is it possible the lack of any mention of the man/Duran/Azcue incident on the 27th in the CIA summary report for September was because the entire encounter was in Spanish? (And that the CIA was unaware when the monthly summary was written, a few days later presumably, that the (Spanish-speaking?) visitor to the Cuban consulate on the 27th had claimed to be an American?)

Is that even possible?

Thanks, David. 

 

g.  All we can go by are the descriptions from AZCUE and DURAN who do not describe LEONOV and this recap from HELMS finally gives us an idea what the OSWALD that ALVARADO saw looked like:

I am not aware whether either was asked about LEONOV...  very little truth was told about Mexico in the WCR and Sprague was thrown off the HSCA for wanting to know more about Mexico.  They didn't ask more since they didn't want to confirm the man down there was not Oswald... IMO.

Mr. CORNWELL. Directing your attention to the period of time immediately after the assassination, the day of the assassination or the day after the assassination, did you during that period of time have an occasion to see pictures of the alleged assassin in the newspapers or to observe on television the man identified at that time as Lee Harvey Oswald?
Senor AZCUE. Yes, sir, not so close to the date, not in the first few days, not immediately thereafter. Some time I calculate approximately-and I say this because I am not a great movie fan, but it was in mid-December approximately--I saw at that time the film in which Ruby appears assassinating the Oswald who was there, and I was not able to identify him and only 2 months had gone by since I had seen the Oswald who appeared at the consulate. And I had a clear mental picture because we had had an unpleasant discussion and he had not been very pleasant to me and I did not recognize when I first saw him. I did not recognize Oswald. The man who went to the consulate was a man over 30 years of age and very thin, very thin faced. And the individual I saw in the movie was a young Man, considerably younger, and a fuller face.
Mr. CORNWELL. What color hair did the individual have to the best of your memory who visited the consulate?
Senor AZCUE. He was blond, dark blond.
Mr. CORNWELL. Did the individual you saw in the movie, the person who was killed by Jack Ruby, resemble more closely the individual in these photographs to your memory than the individual who visited the consulate?
Senor AZCUE. I believe so.
Mr. CORNWELL. I would like to show you JFK exhibit F-434. Do the representatives from the National Archives have the original or a small photograph of that exhibit? While they are looking, Mr. Chairman, I believe we neglected to ask that JFK exhibit F-407 be admitted into evidence.
Chairman STOKES. Without objection it may be entered into evidence. [The information follows:]

JFK EXHIBIT F-407. 

Mr. CORNWELL. That is a passport. May we have that exhibit admitted into evidence, Mr. Chairman, JFK F-434?
Chairman STOKES. Without objection it may be entered into evidence. [The information follows:]

JFK EXHIBIT F-434. 

Mr. CORNWELL. Did the individual who visited the consulate look like that individual?
Senor AZCUE. No.

 

h. As to the entire thing being made up...
We must remember that Duran is saying this man did not return after the early afternoon when he supposedly brought photos (from a place Duran cannot remember telling him to go).  Nothing about this summary suggest the call originated from Duran's desk, or that the "Oswald" fellow was even with Duran at this point.

 

I mean how much BS can the HCSA throw?

CORNWELL - Let me read something to you, and ask you if it at all refreshes your memory or if hour(sic) have a memory of a conversation similar to this? I don't believe I read this to you before, when we talked the other day, or did I? Did I read and excerpt from Daniel Schorr's book to you?
TIRADO - No, you told me.
CORNWELL - Okay. I'll read it to you then at this time. It's an excerpt from a book called Clearing the Air, written by Daniel Schorr, published in the United States in 1977. And page 177 reads as follows: "In and interview in July 1967 with a British journalist, Comer Clark, Castro (meaning Fidel Castro) said that Oswald had come to the Cuban Consulate twice, each time for about fifteen minutes. The first time, I was told, he wanted to work for us. He was asked to explain but he wouldn't, he wouldn't go into details. The second time he said he wanted to free Cuba from American imperialism. Then he said something like 'Someone ought to shoot that President Kennedy.' Then Oswald said, and this is exactly how is was reported to me, maybe I'll try to do it." Do you recall any conversation like that in either what was said to you by Oswald or that was said by Oswald to Azcue or anyone else that you might have overheard?
TIRADO - No, I don't remember.
CORNWELL - Did any part of that conversation occur?
TIRADO - No, because I don't remember that he says he was to go to work in Cuba because he only that he wanted to go in-transit. That's what I remember.

LEAP - At any time during you conversation with the Consul, did you discuss the possibility that Oswald was a penetration agent? Intelligence agent for a foreign power? Did you discuss that possibility?
TIRADO - No. I don't think so because we didn't have time. Because this man was in my office and I was in Azcue's office so I couldn't leave him many times alone.
LEAP - Did you ever have conversations with Ascue out- side of Oswald's presence relative to the issue?
TIRADO - Repeat the question please.
LOPEZ - Did you ever have a conversation with Azcue when Oswald was not in the office about the possibility that he was an intelligence agent for some country?
TIRADO - No, no. I don't think so. We only thought that he was a crazy man, an adventurer, or something like that.
LEAP - Did it ever enter your mind that that he was a penetration agent?
TIRADO - Perhaps. Perhaps, because it happened, it happened sometimes that somebody came and say this is a policeman or something like that.
LEAP - That's all the questions that I have.

Paul - I only speculate that the entire thing could have been made up due to the complete lack of corroboration of anything which occurs within the Cuban Embassy.  All we have are the words or AZCUE and DURAN... when AZCUE's close friend and CIA double agent LITAMIL/9 repeatedly confirms no Oswald appeared at that embassy.

What we have from these 2 is taken from the "interrogation" of Duran, hand their HSCA transcripts.  Who else in Mexico puts Oswald at the Cuban Embassy?

i.  ENGLISH

DURAN and PROENZA both claim the man who came in was speaking ENGLISH.

CORNWELL - On the very first visit, would you describe to us what the man said and did, and what you said in response?
TIRADO - Yes, he, well, he enter and he ask me if I speak english and I say yes, and then he start asking me about requirements to go to Cuba, to get a visa to go to Cuba, and I explain it.

DURAN never called the Soviet Embassy on the 27th... or during that week - at all - related to the man calling himself Oswald.  

The calls on the morning of the 27th were all in Spanish - not Oswald
The OSWALD-character disappears 2x.  Once after the final call on the 27th to the Soviet Embassy, and then after DURAN claims he returns with photos and completes the application.

The calls on the 27th are all in Spanish... the calls on the 28th are a mixture of English and poor Russian.
The real point being, as you see from other Monthly Summary reports, there were simply not that many people saying the things they supposedly said related to this AMERICAN wanting to travel to Cuba/Russia...  (I believe the woman mentioned in the Sept Summary was FERRER - the woman in contact with LEONOV... but I am only speculating)

104-10004-10257 is the RIF with the transcripts of all the calls.  Calls from after 4pm on the 27th and those on the 28th do not mention LEE OSWALD.. only the call from OCT 1 - from which Tarasoff claims to be able to recognize the voice from the 28th calls... calls we all know were not of DURAN/OSWALD.

Calls from the 28th include the "OSWALD" character asking the SOVIETS to speak Russian and not English. (imagine the wire taps picking up the Russians speaking English to an American who speaks in terrible Russian and asks they speak in Russian and it NOT being reported).   Mostly nonsense is exchanged before the call ends.  Oct 1 - "Hello, this is LEE OSWALD speaking"

Right.  

Hope that addresses your questions with a little background...

DJ

Edited August 18, 2023 by David Josephs

[Paul Jolliffe]

49 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

g.  All we can go by are the descriptions from AZCUE and DURAN who do not describe LEONOV and this recap from HELMS finally gives us an idea what the OSWALD that ALVARADO saw looked like:

I am not aware whether either was asked about LEONOV...  very little truth was told about Mexico in the WCR and Sprague was thrown off the HSCA for wanting to know more about Mexico.  They didn't ask more since they didn't want to confirm the man down there was not Oswald... IMO.

Mr. CORNWELL. Directing your attention to the period of time immediately after the assassination, the day of the assassination or the day after the assassination, did you during that period of time have an occasion to see pictures of the alleged assassin in the newspapers or to observe on television the man identified at that time as Lee Harvey Oswald?
Senor AZCUE. Yes, sir, not so close to the date, not in the first few days, not immediately thereafter. Some time I calculate approximately-and I say this because I am not a great movie fan, but it was in mid-December approximately--I saw at that time the film in which Ruby appears assassinating the Oswald who was there, and I was not able to identify him and only 2 months had gone by since I had seen the Oswald who appeared at the consulate. And I had a clear mental picture because we had had an unpleasant discussion and he had not been very pleasant to me and I did not recognize when I first saw him. I did not recognize Oswald. The man who went to the consulate was a man over 30 years of age and very thin, very thin faced. And the individual I saw in the movie was a young Man, considerably younger, and a fuller face.
Mr. CORNWELL. What color hair did the individual have to the best of your memory who visited the consulate?
Senor AZCUE. He was blond, dark blond.
Mr. CORNWELL. Did the individual you saw in the movie, the person who was killed by Jack Ruby, resemble more closely the individual in these photographs to your memory than the individual who visited the consulate?
Senor AZCUE. I believe so.
Mr. CORNWELL. I would like to show you JFK exhibit F-434. Do the representatives from the National Archives have the original or a small photograph of that exhibit? While they are looking, Mr. Chairman, I believe we neglected to ask that JFK exhibit F-407 be admitted into evidence.
Chairman STOKES. Without objection it may be entered into evidence. [The information follows:]

JFK EXHIBIT F-407. 

Mr. CORNWELL. That is a passport. May we have that exhibit admitted into evidence, Mr. Chairman, JFK F-434?
Chairman STOKES. Without objection it may be entered into evidence. [The information follows:]

JFK EXHIBIT F-434. 

Mr. CORNWELL. Did the individual who visited the consulate look like that individual?
Senor AZCUE. No.

 

h. As to the entire thing being made up...
We must remember that Duran is saying this man did not return after the early afternoon when he supposedly brought photos (from a place Duran cannot remember telling him to go).  Nothing about this summary suggest the call originated from Duran's desk, or that the "Oswald" fellow was even with Duran at this point.

 

I mean how much BS can the HCSA throw?

CORNWELL - Let me read something to you, and ask you if it at all refreshes your memory or if hour(sic) have a memory of a conversation similar to this? I don't believe I read this to you before, when we talked the other day, or did I? Did I read and excerpt from Daniel Schorr's book to you?
TIRADO - No, you told me.
CORNWELL - Okay. I'll read it to you then at this time. It's an excerpt from a book called Clearing the Air, written by Daniel Schorr, published in the United States in 1977. And page 177 reads as follows: "In and interview in July 1967 with a British journalist, Comer Clark, Castro (meaning Fidel Castro) said that Oswald had come to the Cuban Consulate twice, each time for about fifteen minutes. The first time, I was told, he wanted to work for us. He was asked to explain but he wouldn't, he wouldn't go into details. The second time he said he wanted to free Cuba from American imperialism. Then he said something like 'Someone ought to shoot that President Kennedy.' Then Oswald said, and this is exactly how is was reported to me, maybe I'll try to do it." Do you recall any conversation like that in either what was said to you by Oswald or that was said by Oswald to Azcue or anyone else that you might have overheard?
TIRADO - No, I don't remember.
CORNWELL - Did any part of that conversation occur?
TIRADO - No, because I don't remember that he says he was to go to work in Cuba because he only that he wanted to go in-transit. That's what I remember.

LEAP - At any time during you conversation with the Consul, did you discuss the possibility that Oswald was a penetration agent? Intelligence agent for a foreign power? Did you discuss that possibility?
TIRADO - No. I don't think so because we didn't have time. Because this man was in my office and I was in Azcue's office so I couldn't leave him many times alone.
LEAP - Did you ever have conversations with Ascue out- side of Oswald's presence relative to the issue?
TIRADO - Repeat the question please.
LOPEZ - Did you ever have a conversation with Azcue when Oswald was not in the office about the possibility that he was an intelligence agent for some country?
TIRADO - No, no. I don't think so. We only thought that he was a crazy man, an adventurer, or something like that.
LEAP - Did it ever enter your mind that that he was a penetration agent?
TIRADO - Perhaps. Perhaps, because it happened, it happened sometimes that somebody came and say this is a policeman or something like that.
LEAP - That's all the questions that I have.

Paul - I only speculate that the entire thing could have been made up due to the complete lack of corroboration of anything which occurs within the Cuban Embassy.  All we have are the words or AZCUE and DURAN... when AZCUE's close friend and CIA double agent LITAMIL/9 repeatedly confirms no Oswald appeared at that embassy.

What we have from these 2 is taken from the "interrogation" of Duran, hand their HSCA transcripts.  Who else in Mexico puts Oswald at the Cuban Embassy?

i.  ENGLISH

DURAN and PROENZA both claim the man who came in was speaking ENGLISH.

CORNWELL - On the very first visit, would you describe to us what the man said and did, and what you said in response?
TIRADO - Yes, he, well, he enter and he ask me if I speak english and I say yes, and then he start asking me about requirements to go to Cuba, to get a visa to go to Cuba, and I explain it.

DURAN never called the Soviet Embassy on the 27th... or during that week - at all - related to the man calling himself Oswald.  

The calls on the morning of the 27th were all in Spanish - not Oswald
The OSWALD-character disappears 2x.  Once after the final call on the 27th to the Soviet Embassy, and then after DURAN claims he returns with photos and completes the application.

The calls on the 27th are all in Spanish... the calls on the 28th are a mixture of English and poor Russian.
The real point being, as you see from other Monthly Summary reports, there were simply not that many people saying the things they supposedly said related to this AMERICAN wanting to travel to Cuba/Russia...  (I believe the woman mentioned in the Sept Summary was FERRER - the woman in contact with LEONOV... but I am only speculating)

104-10004-10257 is the RIF with the transcripts of all the calls.  Calls from after 4pm on the 27th and those on the 28th do not mention LEE OSWALD.. only the call from OCT 1 - from which Tarasoff claims to be able to recognize the voice from the 28th calls... calls we all know were not of DURAN/OSWALD.

Calls from the 28th include the "OSWALD" character asking the SOVIETS to speak Russian and not English. (imagine the wire taps picking up the Russians speaking English to an American who speaks in terrible Russian and asks they speak in Russian and it NOT being reported).   Mostly nonsense is exchanged before the call ends.  Oct 1 - "Hello, this is LEE OSWALD speaking"

Right.  

Hope that addresses your questions with a little background...

DJ

Thanks, David.

 

I thought Teresa Proenza worked at the Cuban Embassy, not the Cuban Consulate.

124-10003-10386 (maryferrell.org)

The HSCA wrote that someone claiming to be "Lee Oswald" (but certainly NOT the same man later arrested in Dallas) visited the Cuban EMBASSY in Mexico City on Thursday, September 26 shortly after 1:00 pm in search of a visa to Cuba. Pay careful attention to his physical description:

180-10110-10100 (maryferrell.org)

This man was then directed to the Cuban CONSULATE:

LOG AND CONTACT STRIP/FILM NO 250/CUBAN EMBASSY, MEXICO CITY (maryferrell.org)

The Mexicans then photographed this "Oswald" impersonator for the CIA as he left the Cuban EMBASSY at 1:30 on Thursday, September 26, 1963 (the bottom two photos are the "Oswald" impersonator, not the top two, of which I'll say more in a moment):

FACT SHEET ON PHOTOGRAPHS: CUBAN EMBASSY (maryferrell.org)

Now what is really curious to me is that the CIA in 1978 included two photos of a different man, taken on October 2, 1963, as he entered the Soviet compound:

See the top two photos, especially the one of this new man on the left:

FACT SHEET ON PHOTOGRAPHS: CUBAN EMBASSY (maryferrell.org)

 

This man is, beyond any doubt, Nikolai Leonov. Look at the photo of him on the top left in the link above and compare it with this picture of Leonov:

 

For the CIA to claim these two photos were of "a well-dressed, unidentified male carrying a coat as he entered the Soviet/Embassy Consulate compound" was absurd! 

The CIA knew damn well they were giving the HSCA pictures of Leonov from October 2! The CIA also knew that the first man photographed on September 26 had claimed (falsely) to be "Oswald"!

By putting these four photos of two separate men together, the CIA was hoping the HSCA would conflate these two men. Apparently, it worked: notice that the CIA's version of the HSCA press release of July 30, 1978, made no mention of the fact that these pictures were of two different men. 

Therefore, the CIA as late as 1978 was still trying to deceive the HSCA by linking the "Oswald" impersonator in Mexico City with Nikolai Leonov.

I can think of no innocent explanation for this CIA action. 

 

 

 

[Stu Wexler]

Re: Leonov. In an interview with either the Church or Rockefeller Committee, Angleton did everything he could to put a giant arrow above Leonov's head re the assassination. 

I would add that Leonov was one of three Russians who independently told the same story about Oswald freaking out to them at the Soviet Embassy, only each of the relevant persons put themselves as the person who had to deal directly with Oswald when it happened. So someone was lying or they all were.

Two other things. Leonov was very close to Che and other Cubans. And he became one of Putin's mentors.

Stu

[Sandy Larsen]

On 8/17/2023 at 5:47 AM, Pamela Brown said:

Sandy, do you have a cite for Agent Hosty saying the subject of Mexico City was 'dropped' after Lee's explosive reaction to Hosty's question?  

 

(Note: I disagree with Pamela's "explosive" characterization of Oswald's response. Hosty's interpretation of it was "agitated.")

 

Pamela,

The following exchange occurred before it was pointed out to Hosty that some of his testimony contradicted what he had told the WC. As I posted earlier, this is when they dropped the subject of Mexico City after Oswald asked Hosty how he knew about it.

Mr. Wallach. Do you recall what Oswald's answer was when he did calm down to the question of what he had been doing in Mexico City?

Mr. Hosty. He never answered it.

Mr. Wallach. He never answered it?

Mr. Hosty. No, sir.

Mr. Wallach. So he did not tell the interrogators whether or not he had been in Mexico City?

Mr. Hosty. Right.

Mr. Epstein. After you mentioned Mexico City to the police captain and he challenged you, and you said you didn't respond--

Mr. Hosty. I did not respond.

Mr. Epstein. He did not. And you did not respond?

Mr. Hosty. He asked me how I knew, and I did not respond.

Mr. Epstein. What happened then?

Mr. Hosty. Captain Fritz went on to another question.

 

Source:  https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1406#relPageId=29    (Page 30. Pages 25 to 37 have the full exchange.)

 

[Paul Jolliffe]

59 minutes ago, Stu Wexler said:

Re: Leonov. In an interview with either the Church or Rockefeller Committee, Angleton did everything he could to put a giant arrow above Leonov's head re the assassination. 

I would add that Leonov was one of three Russians who independently told the same story about Oswald freaking out to them at the Soviet Embassy, only each of the relevant persons put themselves as the person who had to deal directly with Oswald when it happened. So someone was lying or they all were.

Two other things. Leonov was very close to Che and other Cubans. And he became one of Putin's mentors.

Stu

Stu,

I've never read that Nikolai Leonov claimed to be one of the three Soviet officers who met "Oswald" on Saturday, September 28. I've always understood that the three were

Victor Kostikov

Oleg Nechiporenko

Pavel Yatzkov.

Can you provide a citation for the claim that Leonov was one of the three who supposedly met "Oswald" either on Friday, September 27 or Saturday, September 28?

[David Josephs]

4 hours ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

Therefore, the CIA as late as 1978 was still trying to deceive the HSCA by linking the "Oswald" impersonator in Mexico City with Nikolai Leonov.

Please notice the dates and times of the 4 photos...  the 2 of LEONOV at 1pm on Oct 2nd... According to the evidence offered, he left the hotel at 6:30am on the 2nd (despite other evidence claiming he never stayed the night of the 1st at the hotel).

Same thing for the other photos from the 26th...  while they did intro these photos at the HSCA, they were in no way related to the dates Oswald was placed there.

The CIA was aware of LEONOV as KGB since the late 50's (201 opened Oct 17, 1956).

Also to remember that even by 1978, not many knew who LEONOV was - let alone he was KGB in Mexico City.
The other man does not match the "OSWALD" description by anyone with a face much rounder than the way he was described by Azcue and Duran.

There were no photos of Oswald since he was never there.  Mystery Man was a Goodpasture ploy with Scott/King knowing exactly who he was but never saying. 

I'd say the only off word in your quoted statement is "trying" as the deception about MX and the entire assassination has never ended.

[Sandy Larsen]

11 hours ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

(the bottom two photos are the "Oswald" impersonator, not the top two, of which I'll say more in a moment):

11 hours ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

FACT SHEET ON PHOTOGRAPHS: CUBAN EMBASSY (maryferrell.org)

 

Paul,

I'm pretty sure there's a mistake in your identification of the Oswald impersonator.

Which of these two men is the Oswald impersonator? I've always thought it is the one on the left, Nikolai Leonov. Because every time I got a new clue from something Sylvia Duran or Eusebio Azcue said about their Oswald, it always better matched Leonov than the other guy.

I just did a quick search in my files and found the following statement made by Eusebio Azcue in 1978:

"The person in the film [of the real Oswald in the news) was younger and with a pudgier face compared to the hard, lines and older face of the person who requested the visa [at the Cuban Consulate in 1963]."  (Source)

Azcue cannot possibly be referring to the broad-faced guy we see above.

Therefore Nikolai Leonov is the Oswald impersonator.

 

[James DiEugenio]

Was Leonov 5' 5"?

how could he possibly  speak lousy Russian?