Bang up job, folks...

[Cliff Varnell]

1 hour ago, W. Niederhut said:

Cliff & Kirk,

     I disagree with the premise that GHWB and the CIA actually terminated Operation Mockingbird (in practice, not name) after the Church Committee hearings in the 70s.

I never advanced such a premise.  From 1976 to 2001 — during the Op Mock hey-day — support for the LN view remained in the low teens.

With the advent of the internet LN support ballooned.  Why?  Because “simplicity and repetition” are not in the JFKA Critical Community playbook.

1 hour ago, W. Niederhut said:

    How many stories in the U.S. mainstream media covered CIA Operation Timber Sycamore-- launched in Syria in 2014?

What does that have to do with 21st Century coverage of the JFKA?

1 hour ago, W. Niederhut said:

    How many M$M stories covered the history of the Cheney/Rumsfeld/Necon Project for a New American Century?

    Before his untimely death, German journalist, Udo Ulfkotte, published a bestselling 2014 expose on the subject of CIA Operation Mockingbird, (in Europe) called Gekaufte Journalisten, which I have mentioned in a post or two on the subject here.  The English translation of Ulfkotte's book was first published in paperback in 2019, as Presstitutes.

     Ulfkotte's description of the CIA's pervasive 21st century activity in the mass media directly mirrored the earlier William Colby/Carl Bernstein descriptions of CIA influence in the U.S. media-- controlling narratives and suppressing accurate coverage of military and intelligence ops.

And the 21st Century coverage of the JFKA, to which you ascribe the spike in support of the LN in national polls, was what?

1 hour ago, W. Niederhut said:

Presstitutes Embedded in the Pay of the CIA: A Confession from the Profession: Ulfkotte, Dr. Udo, Schlademan, Andrew, Leonard, John-Paul: 9781615770175: Amazon.com: Books

     The best example of Operation Mockingbird in the 21st century, IMO, has been the pervasive mainstream media cover up of PNAC's "New Pearl Harbor" 9/11 op-- the so-called Great American Psy-Opera.

     But the M$M has also continued, to a lesser extent, to suppress honest coverage of the debunking of the Warren Commission Report.  The limited M$M coverage of Oliver Stone's landmark documentary, JFK Revisited, is the most obvious example.

“Continued to a lesser extent” — thank you!

That was my point.  Even though Op Mock activity in relation to the JFKA was “lesser” than the 90’s, LN support spiked in this Century.

Fonzi and Salandria showed how to destroy the LN — and they’ve been ignored.

[W. Niederhut]

1 hour ago, Cliff Varnell said:

 

What does that have to do with 21st Century coverage of the JFKA?

 

Cliff,

     I mentioned Operation Timber Sycamore as an obvious example of "Mockingbird" M$M censorship in the 21st century.   

     I also mentioned Udo Ulfkotte's work as 21st century documentation of the fact that GHWB and the CIA never really abolished CIA psy ops (Mockingbird) in the M$M.

   As for the JFKA, look at the ridiculous non-coverage of JFK Revisited in the U.S. M$M.

[Cliff Varnell]

3 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

Cliff,

     I mentioned Operation Timber Sycamore as an obvious example of "Mockingbird" M$M censorship in the 21st century.   

     I also mentioned Udo Ulfkotte's work as 21st century documentation of the fact that GHWB and the CIA never really abolished CIA psy ops (Mockingbird) in the M$M.

   As for the JFKA, look at the ridiculous non-coverage of JFK Revisited in the U.S. M$M.

All well and good but you’re not addressing the issue at hand — the sharp increase in support for the LN between 2001 and 2017.

There is no data to indicate it was a function of age.

You’ll be hard pressed to find significant MSM/Op-Mock coverage over that time to account for this sizable shift.

Does the flood of ambitious T3-Denying “CTs” on the ‘Net this Century explain it?

I bet.

[Ron Bulman]

I think any increase in the percentage of acceptance of the lone nut theory might be a function of time.  The JFKA is part of this generation's grandparents or even great grandparents.  Has Operation Mockingbird and it's successors, ownership of the M$M by the 1%. succeeded somewhat?  E.G. what they believe is "Democracy" has survived all this time, the government must have got it right.  Faith in institutional education?  Which continues to ignore the JFKA.

Edited September 25, 2023 by Ron Bulman

[W. Niederhut]

55 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said:

All well and good but you’re not addressing the issue at hand — the sharp increase in support for the LN between 2001 and 2017.

There is no data to indicate it was a function of age.

You’ll be hard pressed to find significant MSM/Op-Mock coverage over that time to account for this sizable shift.

 

Good question.

I have a hypothesis, Cliff.

Since 9/11, (in 2001) there have been an endless array of M$M and internet articles reviving the old CIA propaganda technique of disparaging "conspiracy theories"-- despite the fact that conspiracy theories are not monolithic.

(We all know that some conspiracy theories are kooky, and others are accurate explanations of military and intelligence black ops.)

My belief is that the PNAC perpetrators of 9/11 have been HEAVILY invested in blacklisting any public debunking of the official U.S. government 9/11 narrative, while disparaging the scientists, engineers, professors, and scholars in the 9/11 Truth movement as kooky "conspiracy theorists."

In the process, there has probably been a carry over effect-- increasing public skepticism of JFKA "conspiracy theorists."

 

[Kirk Gallaway]

W. I also mentioned Udo Ulfkotte's work as 21st century documentation of the fact that GHWB and the CIA never really abolished CIA psy ops (Mockingbird) in the M$M. 

That's false! That was not his work at all! Ulfkotte "work"was as a German with  Neo Nazi leanings who argued in his written columns for the "de islamization" of Germany and also a strong rearming of Germany. He was approached and directed to some  written sources for more ideas by people he found out later  were German intelligence, and exposed it. His primary beef was with German intelligence, and extrapolated that the CIA was doing it too, but again  cited no concrete examples. Find  me one he cited.

Come on W. he's not even a domestic source!

I was going to say focus on Cliff's question. But I see you're starting to.

2 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

Since 9/11, (in 2001) there have been an endless array of M$M and internet articles reviving the old CIA propaganda technique of disparaging "conspiracy theories"-- despite the fact that conspiracy theories are not monolithic.

Yes there has been a greater array of articles disparaging conspiracy theories because there's a great proliferation of bullsh-t and an entire political party spreading them.! And then using these conspiracy theories , trying to overturn elections and threatening public officials. And I've seen you mention in other threads about what a danger these people are, and  I agree! And I don't know why you're downplaying it here. I  see here Cassidy Hutchinson has to move around her residences because she's in fear of her life! We have a bunch of nut cases going to Dallas to see JFK. And I'm not even scratching the surface!

 

 

[James DiEugenio]

I was not going to comment on this originally since the thesis is so obtuse.  But when I see someone I like and respect like Pat Speer falling for it, I almost have to.

The number of people who did not buy the WC and thought it was a conspiracy went through the ceiling in the years  1991-92 due to the film JFK. The chart, if anything, underestimates that. There were polls that were about or close to 90 per cent against the Commission.  And in fact, sub questions were highly in favor of a CIA plot.

But what happened is the Powers that Be were not going to let that continue.  Especially with the 30th coming up. So two powerful people, the late Harold Evans and Bob Loomis of Random House, timed their backing of Posner's book with that anniversary.  Posner got a PR tour, the likes of which had never been seen before.  (And since then the only one that came close  was the one for Sy Hersh and his JFK hatchet job four years later.)

That began a clamping down on anyone who was against the official story.  We know this from Alec Baldwin and his experience at NBC.  He wanted to pitch a program around the JFK case, but the executives knew what he had in mind and they said words to the effect, we have become settled in with the Warren Report.

Now, in addition to that clamping down, there has been a large amount of media consolidation since 1991. This was begun under Clinton and his Communications Act which significantly altered the ownership limitations of broadcast and print media. Today, something like six companies own  like 90 per cent of all broadcast media. 

When Oliver Stone came out with his film in late 1991, he was all over the major media. He was on Nightline twice, and he was on the Oprah Winfrey Show which was huge.  There were several talk shows devoted only to the JFK assassination. There were independent producers who did specials on the subject with hosts like James Earl Jones and Robert Conrad. Our side was getting a lot of time with people like Jim Marrs and Cyril Wecht.  It was really kind of unprecedented.

Slowly but surely those avenues were closed off due to the Powers that Be and the media consolidation.  I can tell you that is the case since I know it firsthand.  How many major shows had Oliver on in 2021?  None.  And we had a pretty big PR firm working for us.  They tried.  We were deliberately  vetoed, as with Alec Baldwin.  I cannot go into the bloody details, but I can assure you that was the case.

Now, further proof of this is that such was not the case abroad. We were well reviewed in Europe by a margin of 15-5 according to our clipping service. In the space of just a few weeks the following happened:

1. We were in 3 feature stories in the major Australian  newspapers, and they interviewed me live on Channel Nine, the biggest broadcaster on the continent.

2. About a week after that, i got a call from Izvestia, one of the biggest broadcast/print media in Russia, and did a Zoom interview with them.

3.  About a week after that, the Rome Film Festival flew Oliver into Italy since they showed both versions of the film on the same night, about a mile from each other  One of the viewings, I do not recall which one, was so well attended they had it in an open air venue.  Oliver and I were on the feature pages of the Rome dailies the next day.

And I do not have to repeat what happened up in Quebec.  Wall to wall interviews by Oliver and me, even some before we got there.  Sold out attendance at all three venues, the last at 99 bucks a pop.

For Oliver to get any kind of breakthrough at all in America he had to turn to the alternative media and do many, many of those in order to build some coverage.  He did a lot of work, like 3-4 shows a day.  

So anyone who somehow tries to say this is a failing of the critical community, that is just in my view axe grinding for your own agenda. What has happened to the American big media in the last 30 some years is nothing less than a tragedy. Just look at the Bill Casey led takeover of ABC, that is a story that was so covered up it was kind of sick.

Edited September 25, 2023 by James DiEugenio

[Benjamin Cole]

23 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

I was not going to comment on this originally since the thesis is so obtuse.  But when I see someone I like and respect like Pat Speer falling for it, I almost have to.

The number of people who did not buy the WC and thought it was a conspiracy went through the ceiling in the years  1991-92 due to the film JFK. The chart, if anything, underestimates that. There were polls that were about or close to 90 per cent against the Commission.  And in fact, sub questions were highly in favor of a CIA plot.

But what happened is the Powers that Be were not going to let that continue.  Especially with the 30th coming up. So two powerful people, the late Harold Evans and Bob Loomis of Random House, timed their backing of Posner's book with that anniversary.  Posner got a PR tour, the likes of which had never been seen before.  (And since then the only one that came close  was the one for Sy Hersh and his JFK hatchet job four years later.)

That began a clamping down on anyone who was against the official story.  We know this from Alec Baldwin and his experience at NBC.  He wanted to pitch a program around the JFK case, but the executives knew what he had in mind and they said words to the effect, we have become settled in with the Warren Report.

Now, in addition to that clamping down, there has been a large amount of media consolidation since 1991. This was begun under Clinton and his Communications Act which significantly altered the ownership limitations of broadcast and print media. Today, something like six companies own  like 90 per cent of all broadcast media. 

When Oliver Stone came out with his film in late 1991, he was all over the major media. He was on Nightline twice, and he was on the Oprah Winfrey Show which was huge.  There were several talk shows devoted only to the JFK assassination. There were independent producers who did specials on the subject with hosts like James Earl Jones and Robert Conrad. Our side was getting a lot of time with people like Jim Marrs and Cyril Wecht.  It was really kind of unprecedented.

Slowly but surely those avenues were closed off due to the Powers that Be and the media consolidation.  I can tell you that is the case since I know it firsthand.  How many major shows had Oliver on in 2021?  None.  And we had a pretty big PR firm working for us.  They tried.  We were deliberately  vetoed, as with Alec Baldwin.  I cannot go into the bloody details, but I can assure you that was the case.

Now, further proof of this is that such was not the case abroad. We were well reviewed in Europe by a margin of 15-5 according to our clipping service. In the space of just a few weeks the following happened:

1. We were in 3 feature stories in the major Australian  newspapers, and they interviewed me live on Channel Nine, the biggest broadcaster on the continent.

2. About a week after that, i got a call from Izvestia, one of the biggest broadcast/print media in Russia, and did a Zoom interview with them.

3.  About a week after that, the Rome Film Festival flew Oliver into Italy since they showed both versions of the film on the same night, about a mile from each other  One of the viewings, I do not recall which one, was so well attended they had it in an open air venue.  Oliver and I were on the feature pages of the Rome dailies the next day.

And I do not have to repeat what happened up in Quebec.  Wall to wall interviews by Oliver and me, even some before we got there.  Sold out attendance at all three venues, the last at 99 bucks a pop.

For Oliver to get any kind of breakthrough at all in America he had to turn to the alternative media and do many, many of those in order to build some coverage.  He did a lot of work, like 3-4 shows a day.  

So anyone who somehow tries to say this is a failing of the critical community, that is just in my view axe grinding for your own agenda. What has happened to the American big media in the last 30 some years is nothing less than a tragedy. Just look at the Bill Casey led takeover of ABC, that is a story that was so covered up it was kind of sick.

I largely agree with JD.

The really short story:

Every government in history wants to control media. 

Legacy media is generally controlled in the US.

The government is now maneuvering to control social media, and in many situations already is. 

The surprisingly fact is that such a large segment of the US public does not buy the lone gunman theory. 

This is largely due to the efforts of the JFJA research community, armed with perhaps 1% of the resources of legacy media and government. If that.

The way Oliver Stone's films were savaged, and now the RFK2 campaign....dudes, if you do not think there is a Deep State blob at work in DC.....

 

[Cliff Varnell]

2 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

I was not going to comment on this originally since the thesis is so obtuse.

And DiEugenio still doesn’t comment on the issue at hand.

2 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

.  But when I see someone I like and respect like Pat Speer falling for it, I almost have to.

The number of people who did not buy the WC and thought it was a conspiracy went through the ceiling in the years  1991-92 due to the film JFK.

 Not according to the Gallup poll.  The support for the conspiracy view was steady from 1976 to 2001.

2 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

The chart, if anything, underestimates that. There were polls that were about or close to 90 per cent against the Commission.  And in fact, sub questions were highly in favor of a CIA plot.

No doubt.  

2 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

But what happened is the the Powers that Be were not going to let that continue.  Especially with the 30th coming up.

But it DID continue — for at least another decade!

2 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

So two powerful people, the late Harold Evans and Bob Loomis of Random House, timed their backing of Posner's book with that anniversary.  Posner got a PR tour, the likes of which had never been seen before.

And as of 2001 it had no impact on public opinion according to Gallup.

2 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

 (And since then the only one that came close  was the one for Sy Hersh and his JFK hatchet job four years later.)

That began a clamping down on anyone who was against the official story.  We know this from Alec Baldwin and his experience at NBC.  He wanted to pitch a program around the JFK case, but the executives knew what he had in mind and they said words to the effect, we have become settled in with the Warren Report.

Now, in addition to that clamping down, there has been a large amount of media consolidation since 1991. This was begun under Clinton and his Communications Act which significantly altered the ownership limitations of broadcast and print media. Today, something like six companies own  like 90 per cent of all broadcast media. 

And in the 10 years of media consolidation after the release of JFK there was no substantial change in public opinion, according to Gallup.

2 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

When Oliver Stone came out with his film in late 1991, he was all over the major media. He was on Nightline twice, and he was on the Oprah Winfrey Show which was huge.  There were several talk shows devoted only to the JFK assassination. There were independent producers who did specials on the subject with hosts like James Earl Jones and Robert Conrad. Our side was getting a lot of time with people like Jim Marrs and Cyril Wecht.  It was really kind of unprecedented.

Slowly but surely those avenues were closed off due to the Powers that Be and the media consolidation. 

This doesn’t account for the dramatic surge in LN support 2001 to 2017.  Again, 25 years of the MSM pimping the LN from 1976 to 2001 had no impact on public opinion.

2 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

I can tell you that is the case since I know it firsthand.  How many major shows had Oliver on in 2021?  None.  And we had a pretty big PR firm working for us.  They tried.  We were deliberately  vetoed, as with Alec Baldwin.  I cannot go into the bloody details, but I can assure you that was the case.

What does this have to do with the surge of public support for the LN 2001 to 2017?

2 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Now, further proof of this is that such was not the case abroad. We were well reviewed in Europe by a margin of 15-5 according to our clipping service. In the space of just a few weeks the following happened:

1. We were in 3 feature stories in the major Australian  newspapers, and they interviewed me live on Channel Nine, the biggest broadcaster on the continent.

2. About a week after that, i got a call from Izvestia, the biggest broadcaster in Russia and did a Zoom interview with them.

3.  About a week after that, the Rome Film Festival flew Oliver into Italy since they showed both versions of the film on the same night, about a mile from each other  One of the viewings, I do not recall which one, was so well attended they had it in an open air venue.  Oliver and I were on the feature pages of the Rome dailies the next day.

And I do not have to repeat what happened up in Quebec.  Wall to wall interviews by Oliver and me, even some before we got there.  Sold out attendance at all three venues, the last at 99 bucks a pop.

For Oliver to get any kind of breakthrough at all in America he had to turn to the alternative media and do many, many of those in order to build some coverage.  He did a lot of work, like 3-4 shows a day.  

I’m personally gratified that JFK Revisited acknowledged both the T3 back wound and the throat entrance wound.  That was a major breakthrough.  In 2018 DiEugenio said the location of the back wound was “unknowable.”

2 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

So anyone who somehow tries to say this is a failing of the critical community, that is just in my view axe grinding for your own agenda.

Ah, this is like Old Home Week!  Before Jim D. put me on ignore in 2018 he accused me of having a sinister “agenda” every time I disagreed with him.

Given his acknowledgment of the T3 back wound in the 2-hour Stone doc, looks like he succumbed.

[Cliff Varnell]

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

I largely agree with JD.

The really short story:

Every government in history wants to control media. 

Legacy media is generally controlled in the US.

The government is now maneuvering to control social media, and in many situations already is. 

The surprisingly fact is that such a large segment of the US public does not buy the lone gunman theory. 

This is largely due to the efforts of the JFJA research community, armed with perhaps 1% of the resources of legacy media and government. If that.

The way Oliver Stone's films were savaged, and now the RFK2 campaign....dudes, if you do not think there is a Deep State blob at work in DC.....

 

Ben, how do you account for the fact that the LN scenario never garnered more than 15% approval from 1976 to 2001 — during the height of MSM support — but shot up into the low 30’s in both 2013 and 2017 when far more people followed the subject on-line?

[James DiEugenio]

Thanks William.

That whole story about the takeover of ABC by Casey's old company Cap Cities is really something that everyone should know about.  It was that which, in all probability, led to 1.) the ABC purchase of the Hersh hatchet job book and then 2.) the horrendous ABC 2003 Jennings/Gus Russo Kennedy special.

And I should also add, Oliver was fortunate to be picked up by Showtime.  It was touch and go there for awhile about getting any of what they call "top tier" broadcast companies to carry us.  But the distributor tried really hard and Oliver's relationship with them pulled it out.  And it did well for them, and that is what got us onto so many streaming platforms afterwards, like 7 of them.  And it became a best seller in DVD sales; amazingly we are still in the top ten.

But guess what?  Before our contract expired with Showtime, the top level of the corporation changed management of that division. Oliver's colleagues were replaced.

Who knows about these things right?

 

Edited September 25, 2023 by James DiEugenio

[Cliff Varnell]

JFK Revisited cites the T3 back wound and the throat entrance wound.

That’s two wounds in soft tissue with no exits.

6.5mm Full Metal Jacket rounds don’t leave shallow wounds in soft tissue.

Why did JFK Revisited spend so much time on the Magic Bullet when it was impossible from the get-go?

[Benjamin Cole]

1 hour ago, Cliff Varnell said:

Ben, how do you account for the fact that the LN scenario never garnered more than 15% approval from 1976 to 2001 — during the height of MSM support — but shot up into the low 30’s in both 2013 and 2017 when far more people followed the subject on-line?

Well, of course I do not have ironclad answers.

But if you read Wikipedia on almost any JFKA topic....

So...back in the 1960s, the CIA had 3,000 people in PR-propaganda. Who knows how many now, and how many are posting stories furiously on Daily Beast, Rolling Stone, Huffington Post and so. 

Sheesh, for a budget of $2 million (peanuts, as you know) the Deep State can flood social and alt-l  and alt-r media with whatever they want. I am sure they spend more than that. 

I confess to using Wikipedia as one of my first go-tos on any topic in which I am not well-versed. 

So, how many non-JFKA junkies look at Wikipedia and form an initial impression of the JFKA, or read stories in the Daily Beast (and other formerly left-wing news outlets) ridiculing JFKA researchers? 

Just IMHO....

 

[James DiEugenio]

Because 2013-2017 was they heyday of the cable companies and their "recreations." inspired by Myers and ABC. Jim Marrs used to make fun of these at seminars.

As per Wikipedia, we have an article about what happened there.  from Jimmy Wales down.

It became the NY TImes of the JFK case.

Edited September 25, 2023 by James DiEugenio

[Benjamin Cole]

27 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

Because 2013-2017 was they heyday of the cable companies and their "recreations." inspired by Myers and ABC. Jim Marrs used to make fun of these at seminars.

As per Wikipedia, we have an article about what happened there.  from Jimmy Wales down.

It became the NY TImes of the JFK case.

Wikipedia is a perfect example.

Sheesh, the CIA (Pentagon) can designate a couple-three guys, or maybe a dozen, to monitor Wikipedia, and keep it shipshape from their point of view, on the JFKA. 

In the JFKA research community, what do we have? We can keep his forum afloat, but not much more. We do not have resources to even finance one guy to monitor Wikipedia. 

I tried fixing a couple Wikipedia articles...it lasted for few hours. 

Without Oliver Stone (James DiEugenio)....where would we be?

Even a smaller profile, hard as that is to imagine.