Gene Kelly

Sandy I may not have satisfying answers to your questions, but here are my thoughts. First, for some reason or another, we never did invade Cuba ... I think that's because it wasn’t a priority for the Military or the high-level plotters, but only important to the Cuban exiles, who were used/manipulated (just as Oswald was considered to be a "useful idiot"). What I think the 'Generals' and military did get was their coveted war in Vietnam. Although we could argue that the Phase 1 aspect lasted long past its need, I don’t see it as solely a poison pill (to pull CIA, FBI and SS principals in line). Phase 1 also characterized Oswald as a pro-Castro Marxist - not a popular profile in the 60's - and helped to frame and severely limit the Warren investigation. I also don't believe that everyone in the CIA was complicit (e.g., Win Scott, John Whitten) so plotters like Angleton had to continue to conceal damaging information from Mexico City - from his own Agency colleagues - and keep pushing the Kostikov story and Russian connections. As one researcher wrote, once Angleton had control of the investigation, he decided to “wait out the Warren Commission” while he chased every Soviet angle in sight" (e.g., Yuri Nosenko). There was also an ongoing duel between Soviet and US intelligence, since after all we were essentially implicating the Russians in the assassination. Finally, I don't believe LBJ was completely onboard or complicit in what transpired, even though he had strong motives towards the Kennedy's ... in other words, the plotters couldn’t be sure of his reaction to all of this. One part of me thinks its naive to think he didn’t know what was happening (including the shenanigans with the autopsy). But I also don’t think the plotters could be assured of his support. LBJ made comments in the ensuing years about how the Generals insanely wanted a nuclear conflict, and he (like JFK) thankfully kept a lid on that ... we never did use nuclear weapons. I don’t think much of LBJ's skills in foreign policy, but he had too much to lose (including his coveted presidency) by being a willing participant. Gene

Jim I find John Newman diffuclt to read and get through (but so is PD Scott). Scott describes Phase 1 as the phantom of an international plot, linking Oswald to the USSR, to Cuba, or to both countries together. This phantom plot was used to invoke a possible nuclear confrontation, which induced Warren and others to accept Phase Two. Scott describes Phase 2 as an equally false (but less dangerous) hypothesis that Oswald killed the President all by himself. In other words, it was planned/intended to revert to Phase 2, where Hoover and LBJ agree that the Mexico City "evidence" needed to be suppressed as it raised the possibility of an international communist conspiracy. This serves to discredit/incrimnate the Soviets (and Castro), forces LBJ to avoid a nuclear confrontation and create a Warren Commission controlled by Dulles and other participants (Angleton, Rocca, et al), and limits any meaningful investigation. And all of this being (according to Scott) a "structural product of a deep political system assembled into a coalition of anti-Kennedy interests". I personally see Phase 1 as blackmailing the FBI and Secret Service with damaging a-priori information in their files before the assassination. This has the effect of forcing them to adopt the lone Oswald story (to protect Agency reputations) and shape their investigations accordingly. I also think the CIA used the exiles and DRE groups, and never really seriously considered a Cuban attack. Some also add a Phase 3, where - once the CIA and FBI realized the alleged assassin was known (and could be linked) to them - they did everything in their powers to suppress this information. An induced cover-up that was put into motion within hours of the shooting. Gene

Micah: I believe that Kelley was a superior to Moore. Officlally, Elmer Moore was temporarily assigned to Dallas from San Francisco office of the Secret Service from 11/30-12/13/63 (14 days) to investigate the assassination. Thanks to Vince Palamara for Kelley's background information. Inspector Thomas J. Kelley was assigned to represent the Secret Service in the investigation of the assassination. Kelley also served as Secret Service liaison to the Warren Commission.He received a B.A. from Providence College and an LL.B. from Georgetown University Law School. His experience included special agent in charge (SAC) of the Philadelphia Field Office, Assistant Director of Protective Intelligence and investigations in Washington, D.C., and the Assistant Director of Protective Operations . He was a member of the International Association of Chiefs of Police, and served as consultant to Far Eastern police agencies, as well as consultant to the Dominican Republic. Kelley participated in at least four interviews with Lee Oswald, which took place in the office of Captain Fritz of the Homicide Bureau of the DPD. Kelley was a member of the Inauguration Detail for JFK in 1961; he became Assistant Director of Investigations in 1965; and head of Protective Intelligence in 1968. He retired in Feb. 1978; in September 1978,he testified before the HSCA (he was followed by Secret Service Chief James Rowley). Kelley died in 1986. Gene

Jim: As I recall, Moore refused to cooperate with the HSCA when asked to testify, which is suspicious given he was one of three supervisors for the Secret Service's investigation into the assassination. I think its telling that when Jim Gochenaur interviewed Moore, he asked him if he ever interviewed Thomas Arthur Vallee ... Moore relied: "Oh, Washington wouldn't let me see the files on that." Then Gochenauer asked about Abraham Bolden; Moore's demeanor changed, he pulled out his revolver, put it on the table and sternly stated: "We finally got him." Then there's the admission (albeit 3rd hand) by "Little Lynn" Carlin that Oswald knew Ruby and had been in the Carousel; she then told another SS agent, who apparently told Moore. Its interesting that, after Elmer Moore presured the doctors (particularly Malcolm Perry), he became some sort of special assistant to Commission Chairman Earl Warren. According to Arlen Specter, Elmer Moore was also present when Warren, Gerald Ford, (and Moore) interviewed Jack Ruby in Dallas. Specterrevealed in a 2003 conference that Moore was the Agent who showed him an undocumented photograph of Kennedy's back wound during the May 1964 re-enactment of the motorcade conducted by the Warren Commission. Lot's of insightsinto the assassination from all of this ... thanks to Jim Gochenaur. Gene

Mark Thanks for this original (unedited) Willis picture ... for that matter, who is the gentleman in the dark apron walking down the center of the street. Quite odd .. Gene

Well stated, Jeff ... knowing JFK , his actions would have spoken much louder than the words (if he had the chance). The latter words are rhetoric for public perception ... I recall (although young at the time) that Goldwater was scary, and I agree with Roger that the policy of 263 was quite clear. Gene

Jim Sirhan's lawyer Grant Cooper had an interesting background. A year earlier, he had travelled to Da Nang, Vietnam to defend a Marine corporal on a murder charge before a military court. Why would a Los Angeles lawyer fly all the way to Vietnam to defend a man in military court? This highly paid lawyer with no reported proclivities for lost causes nonetheless agreed to take on Sirhan’s case. Cooper would make many strange moves, allegedly in "defense" of Sirhan. He kept the autopsy photos from being presented in court under the notion that they would cause sympathy for Kennedy and arouse even more bias against his client (albeit evidence that could have been used to absolve Sirhan of guilt). In addition, Sirhan’s notebooks were found during an illegal search of Mary Sirhan’s house. Cooper had every reason to bar these notebooks from being admitted into evidence, but he chose not only to admit them into evidence, but even had Sirhan read portions of them from the stand. It was Cooper who supplied Sirhan the motive he lacked, claiming that he was angry that RFK was willing to provide jets to Israel. Gene

Ron Here is a good summary of the RFK case that I once compiled, with the help of many of the excellent researchers mentioned in this thread: There are many loose ends and puzzles associated with Kennedy’s murder. Questions remain about luring RFK into the pantry. The interaction of Cesar with Gardner is of interest. The Polka Dot girl almost seems too contrived; another obvious distraction, seen (and heard) by many witnesses, both before and after. The crime scene was secured quickly, and evidence was controlled, like Dealey Plaza five years earlier. Los Angeles was selected in advance, with pre-staged police accomplices, attorneys and investigators, phony coroner assistants etc. The investigation and trial were rigged comprehensively from the start. And within one year, key volumes of evidence were destroyed well in advance of any appeals. Then there is the strange behavior of Sirhan's brothers - who must have known what he was doing in the preceding months - with the authorities. One would think Sirhan's whereabouts in the previous year would have been catalogued in brute detail (like Oswald)… curious that all we get is the simple 'white fog" excuse. Most of the evidence seems to indicate a CIA modus operandi: • MK/Ultra aspect • The use of doubles • Questionable defense attorneys and rigged trial • Destruction of evidence like the Enyart photos • SUS affiliations of Hank Hernandez and Manny Pena, • the presence of Iranian intelligence officer Khan Gene

“Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action” ― Ian Fleming, Goldfinger

Roger I find Barry Ernest to be quite credible ... and his interviews with Vicki Adams compelling. As Barry wrote in the 2021 K&K article, Vicki’s original testimony no longer exists, but there is corroboration from her co-worker, Sandra Styles, who accompanied Vicki to the first floor. Sandra verifies the timing, as well as who was there when the girls arrived on the 1st floor. Sandra Styles knew Shelley and Lovelady well; when Barry Ernest tracked her down in 2002, she told him that Shelley and Lovelady definitely were not on the first floor. She repeated that in subsequent interviews, emphatically. Bigger picture, its the timing of the descent on the stairs that is most important - demonstrating that Oswald wasn't on the 6th floor (and that the 2nd floor encounter is questionable) - and its clear Belin and others attempted to discredit Vicki Adams. And I agree that the Stroud letter (thanks to the ARRB and Barry) is the evidence that destroys the Oswald fabrication. Gene

Roger: I agree (about the retraction of Barry Ernest's account being "wrong") ... see the February 2021 article in Kennedy's and King entitled “Barry Ernest Replies to John Armstrong, RE: Victoria Adams” by Barry Ernest. The documentary record of Adams’ DPD testimony differs from her previous testimony. The stenographer’s tape of Adams actual testimony (i.e., what she told Belin) was destroyed. She never saw Shelley and Lovelady ... she felt those words had been inserted into the record to disprove her timing and credibility. The Martha Jo Stroud letter to Rankin (only declassified after ARRB and discovered in 1999) supports Adams’ actual account, and Dorothy Garner supported what Adams (and Styles) said about not seeing Lovelady and Shelley. Gene

https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/14967-abraham-zapruder-and-jeanne-legon/

Paul I dont know about any of Burkley's private papers. His daughter refused ARRB access to his lawyer's files. Being sensitive to Larry's post, I do not believe that he was in on the plotting or any surrepticious transfer of the body from Parkland to DC. His duty was to attend to the President (both JFK and LBJ) and to Mrs. Kennedy. He had perhaps the unique perspective on the post-mortem procedures - and he was a ranking naval officer - so he could easily have been legitimately following orders throughout. To his credit, he signed an accurate death certificate and body trace, expressed reservations about WC conclusions, and appears to have taken the initiative to initilally reach out to Richard Sprague and the HSCA ... but that opportunity was buried with Sprague's removal. I know that some have painted a more complicit characterization of his involvement, but that would be speculative at this point. Gene

The 1967 oeral interview for the JFK Librarry also has this comment by Burkley: When the President was on the Air Force One returning to Washington, Mrs. Kennedy, as has been noted, sat in the rear of the plane, next to the coffin bearing the President’s remains. During the flight I contacted her, and stated that an autopsy would be necessary, and that I was perfectly willing to arrange to have it done at any place that she felt it should be done. She said, “Well, it doesn’t have to be done.” I said, “Yes, it is mandatory that we have an autopsy. I can do it at the Army hospital at Walter Reed or at the Navy hospital at Bethesda, or any civilian hospital that you would designate.” However, I felt that it should be a military hospital, in that he had been President of the United States and was, therefore, the Commander in Chief of the Military. After some consideration she stated that she would like to have the President taken to Bethesda. This was arranged by telephone from the plane, and it was accomplished. Burkley accompanied the President in the ambulance going to Bethesda, and also accompanied him to the area where the autopsy was performed. He later stated that: "I supervised the autopsy and kept in constant contact with Mrs. Kennedy and the members of her party who were on the seventeenth floor in the suite at that level. I made trips back and forth. I delivered to her personally the ring from the President’s finger and talked to her on a number of occasions. I also directed that the X-rays be taken for future reference and had complete knowledge of everything that was done. The records are also in possession of members of the family. There were photographs taken at various stages, and they are also in the possession of the family. And the only regret I have that I did not ask to have a photograph taken when he had been restored to his near normal appearance. And I may mention here that he was very lifelike in his appearance and there would have been no question of his having been viewed." In JFK Revisited, Jim DiEugenio points out that: Sibert and O'Neill state that the autopsy report was false. The back wound was not where the Commission said it was, and there was a hole in the rear of JFK's head. (and Arlen Specter kept their testimony out of the record). George Burkley agreed with the placement of that back wound-twice. Once in the official death certificate and once on the face sheet, though his name is erased from the latter (Specter kept him out of the record also). In his 1967 oral interview for the JFK Library, Burkley’s conclusion in regard to the cause of death was the bullet wound which "involved the skull": The discussion as to whether a previous bullet also enters into it, but as far as the cause of death, the immediate cause was unquestionably the bullet which shattered the brain and the calvarium. When asked whether he agreed with the Warren Report on the number of bullets that entered the President’s body, he famously stated: "I would not care to be quoted on that”. Gene

Joe Its certainly a tantalizing set of connections. Jeanne and George led a colorful life, with intrigue and controversy. Unfortunately, all that we can do is speculate at this late date. I do find it notable that the Warren Commission took so much detailed testimony (2+ days worth) from this couple, while really getting nothing out of it, other than a veritable character assassination of the Oswalds. There were other witnesses more deserving of such scrutiny. Also, that Npvember 2009 EF thread went on for some length, with lots of 'interventions' and challenges by certain members who seemed intent on derailing the dialogue (a sign that it might've been important). I would end by saying that Zapruder has always been an enigma to me, and his film is a contentious topic to this day (its handling, provenance, and ultimate ownership). I don't want to wade into alteration theories, but why such an important piece of evidence ends up with Time magazine (and later the 6th Floor Museum) is troubling. And in 1997, when the AARB formally voted to designate the film as an “assassination record”- and implement a legal “taking” to preserve it in perpetuity, as part of the JFK Records Collection - a Justice Department arbitration panel decided in 1999 that Zapruder’s heirs should be given sixteen million dollars in “just compensation” for the taking of the film by the U.S. government, allowing the heirs to keep the copyright, and all of the legal control over use of the film’s images that comes with the copyright. As Dough Horne commented, there's something fishy about that. Gene