Was Oswald an Intelligence Agent?

[Jon G. Tidd]

David Andrews @ post #85:

David, federal income tax returns are not available by law, generally, except to the filer. I doubt the Oswald and Paine federal income tax returns are "classified."

Marina, for example, has a right to see (obtain a copy of) any federal income tax return she filed jointly with Lee. Same goes for Ruth or Michael Paine.

Larry Hancock @ post #89:

I agree. It's erroneous to think of the CIA or any other intelligence service as monolithic. Every intelligence service is highly compartmentalized. Activity in one compartment (e.g., activity tied to a particular locale) may overlap activity in another compartment, yet the work in one compartment is not known to those who work in the other compartment. The place where the two activities are "overlaid" and compared is some analyst's desk. I did not do analyst work although I met and talked with an analyst who examined my work product, completely by chance. I have to believe there is compartmentalization of analysts as well.

Edited December 22, 2014 by Jon G. Tidd

[David Andrews]

I agree that I used the word "classified" hurriedly and ill-advisedly. Yet the Oswald tax return has been the object of some attempts at obtainment, and some contention over its unavailability.

Do we know whether Lee and Marina filed jointly, even while separated? Has Marina ever obtained their joint document, or her former spouse's document?

[Larry Hancock]

It's my recollection - but it may be wrong - that Marina did get some returns released but she was pretty badly turned off by the research community, only shows a couple of folks and nothing has been heard since then..

For those interested, the people she was talking to at the time were Ray and Mary La Fontaine and they briefly mention it in their book. I've been advised, and now recall, that Marina also shared it with Mary Ferrell and she may have written about it in one of Penn Jones last newsletters; those who have them might take a look, I don't have copies myself. The bottom line was that there was nothing notable in the reports - as one would actually expect from any perspective.

Edited December 22, 2014 by Larry Hancock

[William Kelly]

Some suspect Oswald - at least his defection, was run by ONI and not the CIA.

There is am ONI defector file that is still with held - and Oswald himself wrote that if there was a Seven Days in May style coup - the USMC would be behind it.

Since Oswald - as the assassin or fall guy - is part of the responsible network - he leads us to those who ran him - and were behind the Dealey Plaza operation.

BK

[Larry Hancock]

To add a little more speculation, it seems very likely that Oswald may have been a low level source for the ONI in Japan, in regard to Communist planted bar girls working the military scene. However one highly credible sign of intelligence interest in Oswald - at least to me - comes in reports that were investigated by HSCA pertaining to a CIA contact report dated 1962, the report related to information on the Minsk radio plant and was routed to the Foreign Documents Division of the CIA's Soviet Branch of the Directorate of Intelligence. The report very likely was based in a debrief of Oswald upon his return to the US which had long been rumored but denied later by the CIA -- or from information in Oswald's "manuscript".

The report was also investigated by CBS news and a related CIA document provides pretty clear confirmation that the story was not only real but successfully obfuscated by the CIA during the investigations. If you have SWHT 2010 you will find details on page 84/85.

For what its worth, if Oswald had gone into or appeared to get in touch with the Soviet embassy in Tokyo, as Nagell described, it would likely also have come to the attention of the CIA's Soviet Branch, it probably goes without saying that the Soviet Branch not only collected information but conducted operations to obtain intelligence....

[Robert Howard]

If you want to see something very odd, go to the find-a-grave entry for Richard Case Nagell.

It states he is buried at Arlington National Cemetery, then in the comments section someone says something about having obtained his papers........sounds a bit hard to believe myself......Arlington National Cemetery??? Really???

[Larry Hancock]

Robert, it would only be appropriate for him to buried there. He was a highly decorated Korean war veteran, combat decorations for that matter and he obtained a disability pension related to the military air crash which occurred back in the US. Absolutely no reason for him not to be buried at Arlington.

[David Josephs]

To add a little more speculation, it seems very likely that Oswald may have been a low level source for the ONI in Japan, in regard to Communist planted bar girls working the military scene. However one highly credible sign of intelligence interest in Oswald - at least to me - comes in reports that were investigated by HSCA pertaining to a CIA contact report dated 1962, the report related to information on the Minsk radio plant and was routed to the Foreign Documents Division of the CIA's Soviet Branch of the Directorate of Intelligence. The report very likely was based in a debrief of Oswald upon his return to the US which had long been rumored but denied later by the CIA -- or from information in Oswald's "manuscript".

The report was also investigated by CBS news and a related CIA document provides pretty clear confirmation that the story was not only real but successfully obfuscated by the CIA during the investigations. If you have SWHT 2010 you will find details on page 84/85.

For what its worth, if Oswald had gone into or appeared to get in touch with the Soviet embassy in Tokyo, as Nagell described, it would likely also have come to the attention of the CIA's Soviet Branch, it probably goes without saying that the Soviet Branch not only collected information but conducted operations to obtain intelligence....

Larry - CE1961 places Oswald on a ship from Japan to Taiwan on Sept 14 - Oct 6. (CE1962 - Allen Felde's statement directly contradicts the CE1961 timeline and reinforces it was LEE)

The Donabedian Exhibit #1 has Oswald being treated in JAPAN on 9/16 (previous VD?) 9/20, 9/22, 9/23, 9/29, 10/6, 10/24, 11/3 (an Oswald departed Japan on Nov 2 for SF)

The DoD tries to claim he sated behind yet he was seen and described in Ping Tung during that period.

Unit Diaries show him both leaving and returning on the dates described.

CE1961 puts Oswald at the station Hospital in Atsugi from Oct 7 to Oct 13... the "complete" medical records of Oswald do not include this stay at this time

Folsom Exhibit #1 p3 we see double entries for 6Oct58 - one in SF and one in Japan, same signature - CE1961 tells us he was in the hospital from the 6th to the 13th yet they crossed out the "Hosp" entry and replaced it with a "General Duty" assignment on the 6th...

The Oswald Ruby killed never had "bleeding from the rectum" as he did on 7/12/58. This man also did not have a bullet wound on the left elbow or ever had STD's... I think this is strong evidence in support of the real Lee Oswald in addition to the man who returned from Russia

DJ

[Larry Hancock]

David, I'm aware of those things...and I have John's book too.. but like the details of the shooting, trajectories, etc. I leave that to others to dig into. For my interests its very clear that multiple intelligence agencies were very well aware of Oswald, obtained information from him directly, through observation and cut outs and that he was very well known to certain sections of the CIA and FBI prior to the assassination. The CIA document Simpich obtained recently which remarks about Oswald "maturing" simply reinforces the fact that he was a known quantity. That's really enough for me because it establishes the context by which he might be used in the Dallas assassination plot.

.....I'll leave the rest for others to puzzle out if at all possible, at my age I have to husband what energies remain... Larry

[Jon G. Tidd]

Bill Kelly @ post #94:

Bill, I doubt "Oswald" (Armstrong's "Harvey") went to the USSR as an ONI agent.

Here's why. ONI is a military intelligence service, unlike the CIA, which is a broad-spectrum intelligence service. The CIA at any time might be interested, for example, in the economy of some country or region. ONI would only become interested in the economy of some country or region if the economy might in some way affect general maritime activities or U.S. Navy operations in particular. ONI is dedicated, primarily, to providing intelligence to the U.S. Navy. Unless Oswald could have gained access to information of importance to the Navy, I cannot understand why ONI would find him useful.

Was he possibly useful to ONI in Japan? I can imagine that if he was being approached by B-girls in bars, B-girls who themselves were trying to ferret out information from U.S. sailors and marines, he could have been useful to the counter-intelligence side of ONI.

Was he possibly useful to ONI in the USSR? I can imagine that if the radio factory in Minsk was making radios for use by the Soviet navy he would be. But I have no information as to the type of work done by the Minsk factory.

[Malcolm Ward]

I found this on Oswalds factory in Minsk.

It is possible that Oswald worked at two locations during his term of employment at the Horizon Minsk Radio & TV Plant. Prior to being posted in a metal lathe shop, Oswald was first assigned to the "Experimental Shop", where parts were produced for new technologies and components in research and development.

In 1992, we were not allowed to film inside the Experimental Shop, due to its sensitive work for the Russian Air Force, but we were allowed to film the exterior. The Horizon Factory, not only produced and produces today, consumer radios and televisions, but also electronic components for the Russian military and space program. The factory official giving us the tour of the facilities, could not confirm for us if the Experimental Shop was a high a security zone in 1960, when Oswald was assigned there.

Source:

http://www.russianbooks.org/oswald/minsk3.htm

[Larry Hancock]

Malcolm, as I understand it the experimental shop was a security area and did work on some military or government products,not sure exactly what. Reportedly Oswald was first assigned there and placed under heavy surveillance to see if he did give any indication of acting as a spy......once they were comfortable that he was not trying to actively collect any information, engage in any sort of drops or otherwise justify attention they moved him out into the commercial plant area.

As I recall that comes from Norman Mailer's Oswald's Tail and Mailer's review of the KGB documents on Oswald including their surveillance and monitoring of Oswals

inside the USSR.

Edited December 22, 2014 by Larry Hancock

[Chuck Schwartz]

If you can see the memo below, (I found it on www.rense.com- I found the search button and typed in cia oni Oswald and found this memo), it will shed some light on the Oswald /CIA / ONI issue. It is from McCone dtd. 3/3/64 saying Oswald was trained by the CIA under the cover of the ONI (see paragraph 4)

[Mark Knight]

McCone-Rowley document has been previously discussed. Most believe it's a fake:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=20024

[Larry Hancock]

It is most definitely a fake and a rather good one at that - at least in the perspective of being in the right number sequence. Yet no document with that number actually exists nor does it come from the National Archives as claimed. This is a good example of how nothing ever goes away on the internet and the amount of bad stuff that floats around forever. Some very competent researchers were excited about this at first (and I was as well) because it seemed to be legitimate in terms of the numbers series, but after spending time and money to go to NARA it turns out to be bogus and contains some internal errors as well. Its either an actual piece of misinformation, intended to divert or discredit researchers or a nasty practical joke....there have been a few this good but not many fortunately.