Who changed the motorcade route?

[Joe Bauer]

Amazing photos of JFK and LBJ's Dallas trip in 1960 .

Thanks R. Bulman for posting this link.

This is just one reason this forum is so interesting.

JFK seems so tan compared to everyone else. He is incredibly fit and vigorous looking at this time.

He was more movie star attractive than most movie stars and his constant smile just accentuated his appeal. So many of the women in these photos seem absolutely star struck and adoring in their gazes toward JFK.

JFK was a phenomena in this area of star appeal. No president before or since could come close to the crowd appeal that he generated. 

LBJ had to have been extremely jealous of Kennedy's effect on the crowds they encountered.  He knew these people and especially the women in them were weak in the legs upon seeing JFK in person.

Noticed Henry Wade sitting to the left of JFK and Rayburn on the stage at the Dallas Memorial stadium.

 

[Cory Santos]

Couple of points I would like to get clarification on.

First, what were LBJ's connections with the Trade Mart, board, etc.

Second, Vince, do we have any information on the plans on how JFK would enter and leave the luncheon?  Was he to be walked through a kitchen pantry?  How did the motorcade return to Love Field?

Third, do we have a complete list of all attendees and all employees at the luncheon that day?  Again, did the SS review the entire list and do checks on all employees and attendees?  If so, where is that information?  If not, why?  Would it not be amazing if we found out Mac Wallace was on the guest list.  Lol.

Fourth, this is at a Trade Mart.  What were the connections to The Trade Mart in New Orleans and Clay Shaw.  Certainly, there must have been connections between Shaw and the people at the Dallas Trade Mart.  Jim, did Garrison ever consider this.  If so, what did he think of it?

I find it strange, maybe just a "strange coincidence", that Clay Shaw is charged by Garrison and there clearly was a push from LBJ's camp to have the luncheon at the Trade Mart.

These  are the points I would like to know as they would help clear up any "strange coincidences".

 

[David Lifton]

DVP: Let me clarify, because I don't want there to be any misunderstanding.  When I read microfilm editions of the Dallas Morning News, I became quickly aware that there were different editions of the DMN, delineated by the number of stars at the top of the page.  I think that those microfilming the DMN tried to make sure that they always had "the latest" edition for each day, but sometimes there were multiple "page one's," each with a different number of stars (at the top).  I do not believe that the "entire newspaper" changed in terms of its layout and content, and  assume that many--if not most--of the stories in the single star edition were probably carried to the final edition (which was five star, as I recall).  I happen to touch-type at 120-140 wpm, and when I would make notes on these microfilms (and I have big 3 ring binders of the work that I did), I would always note the number of stars at the top of the page, just for the sake of reference.  Also, and this is just a recollection, I believe that where this was most obvious was on the first page or two (or three) for each day. So when you'd turn the microfilm reel to start a "new day," there were, as i recall, often one or two different "page one's", each with a different number of stars.  But once "inside" the paper, I am sure that most of it was the same.  This technique simply afforded the editors the ability to "update" the front page, I think, as the day unfolded.

I'm assuming (but am not certain) that the "one-star" is what was "home delivered" early each morning, and then updates followed, as necessary, during the day.

And I can't resist adding the following: unlike DiEugenio, I learned all of this back in 1969, when I spent many hours at microfilm readers in the "Microfilm Room" of the UCLA Research Library, "micro-examining" the DMN (and many other papers that I ordered via "Interlibrary Loan.")  I did not "learn it" in 2018, from a mysterious "lurker" and then pass on the information, as if I had just been informed of an important "secret," to those following this thread on the Education Forum.

DSL

5/31/2018 - 11:20 AM PDT

South Orange County, CA

POSTSCRIPT:

There is one point I wanted to add to my post, written to advise those who research the JFK assassination.  Most people's journey into this record starts with the 26 Volumes of the Warren Commission Report, then "expands" into documents that are at the National Archives, starting with the WC docs, and then going to the entire JFK Records Collection (of which the WC' 26 volumes is now just one element).

Early on, I realized that all the reporters who were with the presidential entourage were critically important witnesses, and there was no reason to rely on simply the New York Times (and its marvelous NYT Index) for input.  So I made lists of those who were on the press bus (for example), and in general of all the major U.S. newspapers, and then began ordering them, one at a time, via the Interlibrary Loan facility at the UCLA Research Library.  For many months, in the period 1969-1972, a postcard would arrive in my mailbox informing me that the such-and-so newspaper had "arrived",  was available at the circulation desk, and that I would have ten days to read it, and then the microfilm reels would have to be returned to the lending library.  Occasionally, the terms of the "interlibrary loan" permitted the microfilm to be brought off the premises, in which case I could go to a local facility, and have the entire reel duped.  Examining these various newspaper accounts permitted me to get a very good idea of how this entire event was "seen" -i.e., perceived--by multiple (professional) observers (and I'm not referring just to the shooting at Dealey Plaza). Moreover, and often this depended on the talent and capabilities of the individual journalist, sometimes a newspaper would contain some really new and startling information.  Bottom line: the Dallas "press bus" contained a load of highly qualified professional observers, and I have sometimes found their published accounts to be as valuable as anything published by the Warren Commission in its "26 volumes."

DSL

5/31/2018 - 7:55 AM PDT

Edited June 1, 2018 by David Lifton

[Steve Thomas]

1 hour ago, Cory Santos said:

 How did the motorcade return to Love Field?

 

Cory,

 

I think they left in bits and pieces from Parkland Hospital.

Some never did go back to Love Field - like the members of the Dallas Police force.

I'm not sure what the bulk of the press corps did.

At one time, I was curious about what Whitmeyer did. I never did learn. The police he was with in the pilot car all went back downtown, but they didn't mention that he was with them. His wife had an antiques store across the street from the Trade Mart. He figured he called her and asked her to come and get him.

 

Steve Thomas

[Steve Thomas]

1 hour ago, Cory Santos said:

Couple of points I would like to get clarification on.

 

Second, Vince, do we have any information on the plans on how JFK would enter and leave the luncheon?  Was he to be walked through a kitchen pantry?  How did the motorcade return to Love Field?

Third, do we have a complete list of all attendees and all employees at the luncheon that day?  Again, did the SS review the entire list and do checks on all employees and attendees?  If so, where is that information?  If not, why?  Would it not be amazing if we found out Mac Wallace was on the guest list.  Lol.

 

Cory,

 

Here's a little bit about the Trade Mart security. It might help you get started. It's from CE 768.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1134#relPageId=632&tab=page

 

Steve Thomas

[Cory Santos]

2 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Cory,

 

I think they left in bits and pieces from Parkland Hospital.

Some never did go back to Love Field - like the members of the Dallas Police force.

I'm not sure what the bulk of the press corps did.

At one time, I was curious about what Whitmeyer did. I never did learn. The police he was with in the pilot car all went back downtown, but they didn't mention that he was with them. His wife had an antiques store across the street from the Trade Mart. He figured he called her and asked her to come and get him.

 

Steve Thomas

Hi Steve,

I meant what was the original departure route and plans to Love Field.  Did the motorcade change in any way?  What route were they going to use. 

If there was a pre November 22 ride through Dallas and Dealey, certainly, the drive would have also included from the Trade Mart back to Love Field.

[Joseph McBride]

One of my editors at The Wisconsin State Journal in Madison (1969-73) told me he was

such a newspaper addict that when he and his wife would go to Chicago for

a fun weekend, he would drive her crazy by going downstairs from their hotel

room to the street periodically to pick up each edition of the Chicago

papers to study the changes in the various editions. There were numerous newspapers in some American big cities, and usually at least two major competing ones in each city of any size, until the sixties or thereabouts, when

a federal law was passed (known as the Failing Newspapers Act) to allow newspapers to be consolidated under the same

ownership and in the same printing and editing plants as long as they maintained editorial

independence from each other, at least theoretically (as happened, for

instance, with the locally-owned Milwaukee Journal and the Hearst-owned Milwaukee

Sentinel in the sixties; they functioned "independently" for a while and

ultimately merged as the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel).

Edited June 1, 2018 by Joseph McBride

[Mark Knight]

10 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

I had no idea this was true. (And from the posts I'm seeing from various other EF Forum members, many people here didn't know about the "multiple editions" either.)

It seems almost impossible for me to believe that the SAME newspaper office could have the capacity and the manpower (not to mention the TIME, which is always so short, it seems, in the newspaper industry) to churn out up to FIVE separate and unique editions of the very same paper. That sounds incredible to me (but evidently true). And in the 1960s, we're talking a time when the typeface for each article in the paper had to be manual set up by hand. (Isn't that correct, David S. Lifton?) How on Earth did they have enough time and resources to pump out so many editions every single day of the year? I suppose it's much easier today, what with computerization and digitization and all.

Anyway, thanks for the "multiple editions" information, David L.; it's certainly something I didn't realize until now.

The Linotype machine made its debut in the 1880's. Hand- setting type was long gone by the 1950's.

I'm surprised you wouldn't have researched that. But maybe I shouldn't be, since it's not mentioned in the WC report or in Bugliosi's book. Perhaps that's why you haven't discovered the fact that the Linotype was already on its way out in the 1970s.

It's OK to look outside the WC and Bugliosi for background, Mr. Von Pein. Truly it is. There is reliable information out there that is NOT covered by Vince or the WC.

HONEST.

[David Von Pein]

58 minutes ago, Mark Knight said:

The Linotype machine made its debut in the 1880's. Hand- setting type was long gone by the 1950's.

I'm surprised you wouldn't have researched that. But maybe I shouldn't be, since it's not mentioned in the WC report or in Bugliosi's book. Perhaps that's why you haven't discovered the fact that the Linotype was already on its way out in the 1970s.

It's OK to look outside the WC and Bugliosi for background, Mr. Von Pein. Truly it is. There is reliable information out there that is NOT covered by Vince or the WC.

HONEST.

Gee, thanks. (I guess.)

[Joseph McBride]

They could replate the front page without too much trouble

and then stop the presses and replace it. The process might

take an hour or less, from the news room to the composing

room to the press room. In an emergency, it could be done even faster.  

Sometimes in the wee hours for the second edition I'd cover a late-breaking shooting or fire or blizzard,'

and we'd get the story onto page one and maybe with a jump inside. One night

I got to the scene of a shooting before the cops did and found a guy

lying on the floor of a hotel lobby, shot through a six-pack of beer

he was holding, in a pool of bloody beer. We'd also add national and international stories from

the wire, and sometimes those were major stories. Part of my job was to get the first edition each midnight and proofread

the whole first section in twenty minutes; any story could be reset in time

for the edition that most local homes received. The other sections

had been finished earlier in the day and could not be changed. Also, the press foreman would sometimes be

instructed by the night editor to smash words on the metal curved plate

with a hammer if an obscenity inadvertently crept into the paper (for that reason the sports department

was forbidden to call a hockey puck a puck; they had to call it a disk). And one time a problem arose

because some disgruntled person in the composing room

had scrawled an obscenity backward on an ad on an

inside page so it would read clearly in the paper; no one caught it

because of its position, until the daylight hours.

Edited June 1, 2018 by Joseph McBride

[Ron Bulman]

So there were multiple, daily, editions of the two Dallas newspapers over a week and a day, 14th-22nd, that described or showed two different routes.  And two Secret Service agents rode the dog leg Elm version at some point in advance, one surprised when confronted with the TSBD when they rounded the corner from Main onto Houston.  The Secret Service was aware of the TSBD in advance, and knew normal protocol required securing it.  Never even asked the DPD to do this that I've ever read about.  No rooftops, no troops.  Just the best security ever for a parade in Dallas.

Interesting that a one point a route was published in a morning edition but then not in a afternoon/evening one.  

Maybe the route was changed, but not changed, depending on one's need to know?

 

[Steve Thomas]

10 hours ago, Cory Santos said:

Hi Steve,

I meant what was the original departure route and plans to Love Field.  Did the motorcade change in any way?  What route were they going to use. 

If there was a pre November 22 ride through Dallas and Dealey, certainly, the drive would have also included from the Trade Mart back to Love Field.

Cory,

 

That same Commission Exhibit, #768 gives Lawson's plans for the street routes on how the motorcade was going to return to Love Field from the Trade Mart on p. 604.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1134#relPageId=630&tab=page

 

I get the impression that the order of the cars themselves was going to be determined in the Trade Mart parking lot after the luncheon was over. Lawson wrote,

"Presidential party leaves head table, is escorted to motorcade formation area in same parking lot and motorcade is formed." (p. 603)

 

Probably not everyone who rode in the motorcade from Love Field to the Trade Mart would be returning to Love Field to see JFK off.

 

In his traffic assignment memo, Purdue Lawrence wrote,

"... also that other assignments would be made after the President left the Trade Mart and that Lieutenant M.P. Southard would give each officer his individual assignment."

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh20/html/WH_Vol20_0259a.htm

I don't find Southard in the DPD Archive Index or the WC witness list.

 

Steve Thomas

[Vince Palamara]

Please see my latest post SECRET SERVICE security and press coverage for JFK pre-11/22/63

 

 

Edited June 2, 2018 by Vince Palamara

[David Lifton]

On May 30, 2018 at 10:25 PM, James DiEugenio said:

Walton somehow cannot bring himself to address the underlying fallacy in Lifton's reply.

If you take Lifton at his word, then why would the WC be wrong about anything?  Why would the FBI be wrong about anything?  

But the point is, we know they were wrong about everything.

For many, many reasons.  One of them being that they lied and misrepresented testimony and evidence.

I have a whole chapter on this in The JFK Assassination: The Evidence Today. 

So the idea that somehow what someone says years later cannot be true, that is just plain nonsense.  I mean LIfton's book is built upon that idea. 

And BTW, there were three other witnesses Vince had that said that. Not just Bellah.

 

"I mean Lifton's book is built upon that idea". . . so says James DiEugenio, as he casually spouts falsehoods and nonsense (about me)  on the London Forum.

Does DiEugenio not remember that the reason  I interviewed some of the key witnesses "years later" (e.g., in 1979)?   That these  key morgue witnesses had been under a military order not to talk?

Does he not remember what happened in the days following 11/22/63?  That each was called into an Admiral's office (at the Naval Medical Center at Bethesda) and personally issued that gag order,  and then provided a written copy (which they had to counter-sign)? That this was a fact established by the HSCA, and repeated in Best Evidence (see Chapter 27),  and then repeated on camera in my filmed interviews?

DiEugenio:  are you really ignorant of the fact that this written  military order existed, that each person who signed was informed that they could be court martialed if they talked,  and that the order was not rescinded until the HSCA arranged for that to happen, about 1978? And that is why these interviews did not occur until that late date? Followed by my filmed interviews a year or more later  (1980)?

How can you pretend ignorance of all this and then write, as if you just awoke from a long slumber, "I mean LIfton's book is built upon that idea."

That is just plain nonsense, and you ought to know better. 

Please pay attention to the relevant facts, before you articulate such tripe, spread such codswallop, and mislead readers of this forum as to what really took place on November 22 1963.

To begin with (and as just explained),  there was a very important reason why some of my witnesses were unable to talk until 1979.

But now setting all of that aside, and changing the subject from your vacuous commentary to the geometry of this crime. . .:

Of course the "dog leg turn" is important--highly significant in fact--but the proper way to interpret the situation is to realize that it was present from the outset, and was part of the original design of this motorcade route, a route deliberately created to manufacture a seemingly coincidental "crossed paths situation" between the president to be murdered and the (pre-selected) patsy to be framed.

Do you think that Oswald and Kennedy "crossed paths" by accident?

Please don't tell me that you are incapable of comprehending  this simple matter of probability, and of geometry.

TO REPEAT: As the chronology plainly reveals, the motorcade route was deliberately designed to create this "crossed paths" situation.

K apish? What is it that you don't "get"? 

Spell out your concerns, Jim, and I'll try to explain it in very simple language.

Is it too difficult for you to believe that this crime was planned at least two weeks in advance?

What  I have just described is in no way comparable to the situation of a cycle cop like Sam Belllah, when he's in his mid-80's (and on the 25th anniversary of JFK's assassination) suddenly coming up with the absurd story that the motorcade route he drove was changed on the morning of 11/22/63, when he reported for duty at Love Field (!).

That is simply not credible. 

Think about it: were that truly the case, that would also mean that the entire group of cyclists gathered  at Love Field, would also be aware of this; and  if that were so (which it clearly is not), then its highly likely that such explosive information would  have leaked to the media at that time.  ("OMG! The President was murdered and we drove a changed motorcade route!" etc.)

That's right: Kennedy was murdered, and they all knew they had driven a "changed route", and no one said a word about it?

That's just not credible.  And of course, nothing of the sort occurred.  There was no such leak,  another indication that there was no such "last minute change."

The route driven was part of the original plan, a plan that must have included some careful "site selection."

Is that beyond your ability to comprehend?

Moreover, it was a  route that had been selected and agreed upon days before, starting around November 14th, and even "test driven" once or twice between that date and 11/22/63, and --furthermore (and as I wrote previously on this thread) -- even published in the Dalas newspapers starting on Tuesday, November 19th.  I don't see how this data--clearly the "best evidence"-- can be denied or "explained away" as not representing the truth.  What we have here is important evidence of premeditation in terms of the design of this crime, and recognize it for what it is.

Of course, one is free to believe Sam Bellah's story (if you wish), but IMHO  this is a good example of how an urban legend is born.

A poor (and shallow) substitute for the genuine conspiracy that was responsible for the death of President Kennedy.

DSL 

6/2/18 - 8 AM PDT

South Orange County, California

Edited June 2, 2018 by David Lifton

[Paz Marverde]

5 hours ago, Vince Palamara said:

Please see my latest post SECRET SERVICE security and press coverage for JFK pre-11/22/63

 

 

Thank you