David Josephs

Phillips had yet to arrive in Mexico - I think it very possible he brings the tapes with him... I think we can feel pretty sure Oswald did not actually go to Mexico.... So other than these ALICE Oswald's working for Phillips within this charade,,, how do these impostors know about Mexico City before the FBI, STATE or NAVY when informed by the CIA on the 10th?

No sir, it is not.... MILITARY is the term for US MILITARY... I challenge you to find a single MARINE who would say he was an Army Grunt.... or had anything to do with the Army - in the 60's even moreso. Can I get a Who-ya? ----- That you would honestly think we believe EVERY SINGLE SIGHTING to be an Oswald-double, or Lee, or Vaganov is the real absurdity... thanks but no thanks WTP.... Your ongoing characterizations of what "Armstrong proponents" do or don't do is a silly generality and again, you know better so please stop feigning ignorance.... k? With a little intelligence and thought, one can do that in virtually any case buddy.... So now I'd like to know something.... I've admitted and fully accept that 100% of the H&L instances are not H&L... and you admit as well that SOME of the instances are false sightings WTP - I've been at this a long time and know exactly which ones are rock solid and which are more speculation (FWIW I realized Lee did not go to Mexico City... doesn't discredit all the other evidence, it simply offers an ALTERNATIVE EXPLANATION for what occurred in Mexico WITH THE INFO AVAILABLE AT THE TIME. So, WHICH OF ALL THE H&L EVIDENCE OFFERED DO YOU SEE BEING MOST INDICATIVE OF THERE BEING 2 MEN? JUST LIKE IT NOT POSSIBLY BEING 100%, IT ALSO CANNOT POSSIBLY BE 0% SO WHAT GIVES YOU THE MOST COMFORT IN SUPPORTING H&L OR AT LEAST PULLS YOU OFF OF 100% SURE IT CANT BE TRUE?

Here are the 1959 photos combined....

Is this you "inferring" again WTP? How is it that you still don't understand this discussion is about the EVIDENCE, not John Armstrong, Jim Hargrove, Me or anyone else... There is NO DOUBT that some of the "Oswald sightings" were not Oswald, not a double, not even close... NO DOUBT... At the same time you fail to address the actual evidence of duplicity... which runs rampant within the evidence... If you choose to ignore or discount this evidence - that remains on you WTP... not the rest of us who can plainly see with regular sight. We also realize that proving a negative: "none of these reports represents a different Oswald" is a difficult if not completely impossible task... Yet on the flip side we offer evidence IN SUPPORT of the THEORY that 2 men existed as Lee Harvey Oswald and were exploited by the US Military Intelligence Apparatus. That you cannot fathom Angleton or Dulles or Helms or Bissell (Richard Mervin Bissell Jr. was a Central Intelligence Agency officer responsible for major projects such as the U-2 spy plane and the Bay of Pigs Invasion) or Barnes or Hunt or Phillips or Goodpasture or Joannides (George Efythron Joannides was a Central Intelligence Agency officer who in 1963 was the chief of the Psychological Warfare branch of the agency's JMWAVE station in Miami), or any of a score of other names would conceive of and execute a plan of this type is just naïve and stubbornly resistant. That you can NEVER separate the wheat from the chaff in your replies remains the biggest problem WTP... instead of GENERALLY stating that people are unreliable witnesses.... We expect evidence that would allow anyone to conclude the sighting or story is not true... Ok WTP - "Wise man" here has this to say about Marina via Doyle at the San Antonio Airport: Oswald, Doyle recalled, said he'd been driving a friend's car and now wished to rent one. Doyle remembered him as being maybe 27 years old, 5'8", 145 to 150 pounds, with light brown hair. He wore a white T-shirt that was so dirty it was turning gray. Marina was described as being about 27, 5'5", 125 pounds, with black hair, and wearing a stained brown dress; she carried a baby. She didn't say anything; she simply smiled, and could be seen to have two slightly chipped front upper teeth. OMG!! - someone PRETENDING to be Marina ???? Say it ain't so ... Doyle's story was corroborated by Joan Dunsmore, a clerk at the National Rent-A-Car counter at the airport, who also remembered the couple. The thing she particularly remembered was Oswald playing with the baby by tugging the pacifier in and out of its mouth. Marina Oswald was nine months pregnant in early October 1963; Rachel Oswald was born on October 20, 1963. Not a single report mentions that the foreign-speaking woman with Oswald was pregnant. The FBI reports of these sightings are vague about the descriptions of the woman and child or children. June Oswald was about a year and a half old; the descriptions of the couple's child largely do not fit her. To sum up, fourteen witnesses believed they'd seen or spoken to Lee Harvey Oswald in or near Alice, Texas in or around the first week of October 1963, several of them specifying October 3rd, 4th and 5th. Many of these witnesses believed that Marina Oswald was with him. Another three witnesses placed Lee Oswald roughly between the cities of Alice and Dallas around the same time. -------======= So - your own reference simply reinforces the witnesses and sightings as being representative of the Oswald family - despite evidence placing Oswald and Marina elsewhere at the time.... Marina and Ruth are with Ozzie the 4th, 5th and 6th... Where in that Dave article does he say the witnesses are all lying? As Jim posted above... #1 is not possible, #2 makes the most sense... WHY? dave asks.... IMO it's to counter his trip to ODIO and his being in DALLAS with Cubans... remember this is BEFORE Phillips/Goodpasture put Ozzie in Mexico... well before the FBI uses Lic. OCHOA to create all the Mexican evidence of the trip.... I get the impression the ALICE OSWALDS were the work of the FBI to CYA for Ozzie's work and being seen by Odio... #3 is not plausible.... unlike the Cuban Embassy with it's very closed loop of controlled witnesses, this is reversed... traveling about "appearing" to be the Oswalds leaves enough "evidence" to make his being seen anywhere else questionable... (for a purpose that would seem to be unclear). This is the same as Whitten's response to why Oswald would be impersonated... it will remain unclear to those who have already decided H&L is not possible... Gee WTP - your supporting evidence is even worse than your un-researched speculation you offer as rebuttal... There are, as far as I can see, only three possible explanations: 1. Lee Harvey Oswald was indeed in and around Alice, Texas at that time, not 400 miles away in Dallas, where considerable documentary evidence and eyewitness testimony place him. 2. Lee Harvey Oswald was impersonated in and around Alice, Texas at that time (for a purpose that would seem to be unclear). 3. Seventeen separate witnesses are each either mistaken or lying. (Could they all be mistaken? Why on Earth would they lie?) EDIT: I forgot I had this little piece of fluff.... Aren't you also railing against Newman's conclusions that ARMY INTEL was much more involved overseeing activities than CIA... Why does Oswald - or an imposter writing this - talk about OZZIE THE MARINE being with the US ARMY ??? I don't know a single MARINE who would ever say something like that.... and since we know about John Edward and Robert.... and Marge being alive... what's going on here?

Since you're so big on being specific with your choice of words, you might consider things like grammar... "LESS" is for things that cannot be counted... Less water, less air, less hatred "FEWER" is for things that can be counted... Fewer cookies, fewer posts, fewer antagonists, etc.... but hey, at least you tried being cute with your little "inferences". "Ain't gonna learn what you don't wanna know...."

in·fer·ence - a conclusion reached on the basis of evidence and reasoning. Yes WTP, it's different .... it remains your chickensh!t way of attacking others and then retreating into that tiny, myopic world of yours . (so you're not lost Tracy... Myopic means lacking imagination, foresight, or intellectual insight.: ) and how is that any different from everything you post and blog ???? (my emphasis) edit: know what? never mind. I keep forgetting to consider the source... and laugh.

That would have been me Jim... Here it is

For someone who "wont waste the time" you sure spend a helluva lot of time trying to debunk the evidence with silly speculation and baseless conclusions.... this conversation is not about anonymous tips WTP.... the people we are talking about here were within arms distance of the men... No need to belittle that which we already know you disdain... there were not "100's" of Oswalds WTP, just a few people who as I've shown, look very similar to the Oswald Ruby killed. Vaganov was driving around in a red convertible on Nov 22 - and lo and behold, we have DPD HART telling us about the red convertible parked in front of Ruby's at the time of the Tippit murder..... amazing coincidence, right? How many witnesses do YOU need to the 2 Oswalds being arrested - one out the front, one out the back ??? How many witnesses do you need to place Oswald in Ping Tung while also receiving treatment for an STD contracted "in the line of duty"... ... or that one Oswald is a "radar operator" while the other is a Aircraft mechanic? ... closer to home then - the man's story remains the same - Julia bursts into tears when asked about selling a ticket to the man dragged out the front, Butch took his ticket, sells him popcorn while another patron - Mr. Davis - observes this man's comings and goings PRIOR to 1:15pm. Burroughs said that he saw two different people arrested in the Texas Theater. He saw Oswald's arrest and then, "three or four minutes later," watched as the Dallas police arrested "an Oswald lookalike." Burroughs added that the second man arrested "looked almost like Oswald, like he was his brother or something." Bernard Haire, owner of a hobby shop two doors east of the theater, saw the police escort a young man who he thought was LEE Oswald out the rear of the theater. It is truly sad that you can't begin to trust your own eyes....

Yes Steve - the 1959 Passport... Point is the photo and ID is faked.... Oswald shows them ID, and either has a photo taken or offers one that isn't the same person... I simply find this indicative of the charade being played out by Military Intel with help from the CIA... We come to find the 2 hotels in Helsinki that were way above his means, were CIA favorites and used by other CIA passing thru to Moscow... FWIW

Talk about hiding in plain sight! In September 1959 in California, Oswald applied for a PASSPORT using his DoD inactive ID - as noted on the application itself... Problem being the DoD ID has a photo of HARVEY Oswald from years later and was used to create the fake ALEX HIDELL SSS Card Are we to believe the Passport office taking the photo on the right believes these to be the same person ?

I thought I read that this little building was very cramped and divided into rooms.... At the bottom of this post are some photos offered up as an Alpha 66 meeting that Oswald attended (if I remember correctly)... from 3114 Harlendale ... (Walthers wrote a note about Harlendale)... taking how Oswald stands the only person that seems to resemble our man Ozzie is "enhanced" Beckley could very well have been a safe house, I guess.... yet it would make much more sense if this "safe house" was actually where Oswald was really living at the time... THE 1026 NORTH BECKLEY STREET SAFE HOUSE (from the link) Jack White has supplied an address for this safe house as being 1026 North Beckley. That is exactly the same address as the rooming house in which Lee Harvey Oswald was renting a room at the time of the assassination. Jack says that the safe house is a separate building on the same property, in back of the main house, that it faces an alley, and was "only about 50 feet from Oswald's room." Jack says he was taken there and shown the place by Jim Marrs, who had been shown it by Tosh Plumlee Tosh Plumlee has said the following in pertinent part: "When I later learned that Oswald had been arrested as the lone assassin, I remembered having met him...in Dallas at an Oak Cliff safe house on North Beckley Street run by Alpha 66's Hernandez group, who had worked out of Miami prior to the assassination." In another place, Plumlee said: "I went to another safe house and that safe house was directly behind where Oswald had rented a room, in the alley, and I carved my initials on the draining board up there at that time and that was a gun running operation and Oswald was renting the front house. I saw him there briefly but did not talk to him." In another reference to this North Beckley Street Safe House, Plumlee introduces a reference to "Zang's [sic] Blvd" in association with "Hernandez" and "Alpha 66," something which caused some confusion temporarily. But N. Zang Boulevard diagonally intersects N. Beckley Street very close to 1026 N. Beckley Street, so this is being interpreted as a cross-street reference to the same safe house. [NOTE: As Zang Boulevard continues northeast from N. Beckely Street, it becomes Houston Street Viaduct, which becomes S. Houston Street, through Dealey Plaza.] So I gather the room identified as Oswald's - with the 2 doors - is on the left, bottom room next to the living room ???

Never believe anything in politics until it has been officially denied. - Otto von Bismark

The man least considered in my book is Vaganov. It was reported by HART that a red convertible was parked in front of RUBY's apartment at the time of the Tippit Murder.... One has to wonder how it was that a DPD patrolman or someone?? just happened to be at Ruby's between 12:30 and 1:30? Who would be sitting in Oak Cliff at Ruby's at 1:15pm when the Tippit call comes in? 91 Ptm. W.D. Mentzel and Ptm. J.W. Courson ??? Notice too how close VAGANOV lived to the action....

This just BEGS me to bring up that microphone anomaly... It has been suggested this scene needed to be replayed.... Where is the microphone and shadow which is basically horizontally the same height as the top of the door behind everyone on that same wall??? These images are taken at virtually the same time.... And there is the one and only jutting out column of bricks... the mic should be right there above the man with the mic and the man in the black hat at the wall... Anyone 'splain that?

The photo of LEE with a rifle hunting with his brother Robert (who I assume took the photo)... I can't imagine Jim claiming this is Harvey.... In fact the medium light colored zippered jacket MAY have even come from this photo, Harvey did not own such a jacket..... That image is one of the last we every see of LEE OSWALD... FWIW

Here's a few more for you John Top right is a very short guy - but for the life of me I cannot remember his name... Vaganov in the middle LEE inset next to Vaganov, Larry Crawford and Arthur Vallee And a couple more looking like Mr. Oswald... brother Robert and Robert Webster...

Can you name a single key CIA figure in this affair who was NOT in the military (or reporting directly to someone who had been in the military) of some sort prior to service? Every single recently released document about LUCIEN CONEIN is from the CIA.... except he was ARMY on loan to the CIA with their approvals. Why is it so hard to accept that the CIA was the guard dog, taking and dealing with the blame while the US Military did whatever it was they wanted...??

Hey there John... To me it appears like a re-enactment, or a rehearsal for one of the many movies about the time period... Here is an actual Zframe reduced in size to show you what I mean... The lens seems a bit less telephoto than Zapruder's who said he was on full zoom... and the location of the photographer must be further to Zapruder's left and behind? I actually think the building with 3 windows in 1963 was changed over the next couple of years.... The new image John posted looks to me like a movie scene runthru... FWIW - DJ

Jim asked about the source of the 4 passport like photos.... My gut tells me hey had to do with 544 Camp... FPCC and Oswald’s sheep dipping. The white shirt and tie... the expression is almost the same.... Wouldn’t an application sent to Cuba with his photo on it go a long way to create Bona fides for Ozzie’s FBI work? With as many assets in Mexico City as the US intel community had, getting an application sent couldn’t be that difficult... but just a thought....

Indeed Steve, I’ve argued that the clothes he worked in are found in the bottom draw of that dresser.... according to the Dallas Police.... Military Intelligence places Lee Oswald there within minutes of the assassination as a lead for DPD... Does that prove he’s lived there the past 6 weeks or so? Not compared to the evidence to the contrary... as for being “with” one group or another, fewer labels might do us all a bit of good... I have seen duplicity and inauthenticity run rampant in the evidence used by the first 2 government investigations to arrive at conclusions. His being where we are told he is by a thoroughly corrupt conspiracy does not place him there... Neely and Elisabeth are by the E in El Chico.... wasn’t there a DPD substation by 500 N Beckley? Ruby’s place is just below to the right of the map... the barber who sees “Oswald” walking west is where the last t in Tippit is....

Mr Roe... ”why lie” and “do you really expect” are tautological responses to a pretty direct question. if I can supply 5 other reasons why and, YES, I do - in this unique case - expect..... your arguments are moot. Supply Authentic evidence he was there, he slept there... he... LHO... not Mr. Lee et al.... ...just like the McWatters bus BS... repeat it enough and fewer realize it’s not true... And one better... Oswald did not go to Mexico... yet the FBI offers thousands of pages explaining how they looked for any evidence of anyone who saw him.... the physical evidence was that tainted by the FBI and assets.... The Evidence IS the Conspiracy.... I’m with Ed and Bart... spy craft succeeds when the very opposite of reality is portrayed and accepted as real, in turn directing behavior as desired

Riggs is Goodpasture.... And here is that page to which Jim refers

This should help Anthony. Welcome to the Forum, this is by Jack White with John Armstrong’s assistance If I remember correctly Edit: bigger version...

If I was to speculate... His 2 friends on the trip to Odio may have asked that he get passport, visa -type photos... For fake ID as 1 example. With the 2 application photos there were 4 total... only the one connected to the carbon had no staples, making little sense... could they be simply from a photo booth.. in terms of quality? I believe that’s Aug 1963 on the left.... New Orleans.... (never mind the impossible headsize of the marine photo...)