David Josephs

What are the odds two black men in Texas tell the DPD what they need to hear? Pat, can you address the following please as it relates to your claims... I see nothing in what they say to support what you conclude.??? JARMAN does not say he ate lunch in the Domino room Pat....: Mr. BALL - What did you do there?Mr. JARMAN - I was eating part of my sandwich there, and then I came back out and as I was walking across the floor I ate the rest of it going toward the domino room.Mr. BILL. You say you ate the rest of it when?Mr. JARMAN - Walking around on the first floor there. Mr. BALL - Were you with anybody when you were walking around finishing your sandwich?Mr. JARMAN - No; I wasn't, I was trying to get through so I could get out on the street.Mr. BALL - Did you see Lee Oswald?Mr. JARMAN - No; I didn't. Mr. BALL - After his arrest, he stated to a police officer that he had had lunch with you. Did you have lunch with him?Mr. JARMAN - No, sir; I didn't. How much more clear does this need to be Pat? No lunch in the Domino Room, no sitting with Norman in the Domino room (And there's the Dr. Pepper Machine next to the fridge, the case for the empties is leaning against the wall by the stairs Mr. BALL - When you finished your sandwich and your bottle of pop, what did you do?Mr. JARMAN - I throwed the paper that I had the sandwich in in the box over close to the telephone and I took the pop bottle and put it in the case over by the Dr. Pepper machine.Mr. BALL - And then what did you do?Mr. JARMAN - Then I went out in front of the building. Mr. JARMAN - We went around to the back of the building up to the fifth floor.Mr. BALL - You say you went around. You mean you went around the building?Mr. JARMAN - Right.Mr. BALL - You didn't go through and cross the first floor?Mr. JARMAN - No, sir; there was too many people standing on the stairway so we decided to go around. Now why do you supposed BALL wanted them to go THRU the first floor inside the building? Maybe to support the falsehood that they say Oswald in the Domino room at lunch... but they didn't. Both men tell us they did not see OSWALD in the Domino Room during lunch.... Now, What does NORMAN say? Mr. BALL. Did you remember seeing him at any time that morning?Mr. NORMAN. Yes; around about 10 or 10:15, somewhere in the neighborhood of that. Mr. McCLOY. You testified that you had not seen Oswald except this one occasion in the morning. Did you hear any of your friends or coworkers say whether they had seen Oswald on that morning?Mr. NORMAN. Not until afterMr. McCLOY. After the assassination?Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir; that is the only time. So Larry, I'd wait a second on setting this in stone, at least until this testimony is accounted for.... Mr. BALL - You went in the back door?Mr. JARMAN - Right.Mr. BALL - That would be the north entrance to the building, wouldn't it?Mr. JARMAN - Right.Mr. BALL - Did you take an elevator or the stairs?Mr. JARMAN - We took the elevator.Mr. BALL - Which elevator?Mr. JARMAN - The west side elevator There are 3 entrances on the NORTH of the TSBD... one right next to the WEST ELEVATOR in fact... NORMAN makes your argument even worse by claiming to have gone out the front with Jarman.... who, while going out the front door with NORMAN also goes out the back door with JARMAN Mr. BALL. After you ate your lunch, what did you do?Mr. NORMAN. I got with James Jarman, he and I got together on the first floor.Mr. BALL. Where was James Jarman when you got together with him?Mr. NORMAN. He was somewhere in the vicinity of the telephone, I believe. I am not for sure.Mr. BALL. Out near the bins?Mr. NORMAN. Yes.Mr. BALL. What do you call James Jarman?Mr. NORMAN. Junior.Mr. BALL. And you and Junior did what?Mr. NORMAN. We went outside.Mr. BALL. You went out the front door, did you?Mr. NORMAN. Yes.Mr. BALL. That is the Elm Street?Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.Mr. BALL. Where did you stand?Mr. NORMAN. We stood on the Elm Street sidewalk. Furthermore, even if they came in the small door, neither of the men say they saw Oswald during lunch... infact NORMAN says the room had "someone" in it - but no one with which to play dominoes... Mr. BALL. Where were you when you ate your lunch?Mr. NORMAN. In the domino room, as I recall.Mr. BALL. Who was with you at that time?Mr. NORMAN. I can't remember who ate in the lunchroom, I mean the domino room, with me.Mr. BALL. Did some other employees eat there?Mr. NORMAN. I think there was someone else in there because we usually played dominoes in there but that particular day we didn't play that morning.Mr. BALL. Why didn't you play that morning?Mr. NORMAN. Well, didn't nobody show up there to play like the guys usually come in to play.

Yes Pat, I think she is hiding the fact she saw someone looking like Oswald in the lunchroom as well as walking thru the office in only a t-shirt... we both know that Oswald wore that Briarloom button-down collared shirt over his white T-shirt... Whether "Lee" to our man's Harvey... or another look-a-like, there was most definitely a second Oswald-looking character in that building.... As for his being in the Domino Room.... Eddie Piper claims he was down there around 11:50-12:00 https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=35#relPageId=393&tab=page But then he leaves and goes to the front of the building on the 1st floor.... (and then lies his butt off IMO) You write: "but recalled possibly two negro employees walking through the room in this period. " which does not sound like "having lunch with 2 colored boys" - you SURE Oswald was in there during lunch? Mr. BALL. Where were you when you ate your lunch?Mr. NORMAN. In the domino room, as I recall.Mr. BALL. Who was with you at that time?Mr. NORMAN. I can't remember who ate in the lunchroom, I mean the domino room, with me.Mr. BALL. Did some other employees eat there?Mr. NORMAN. I think there was someone else in there because we usually played dominoes in there but that particular day we didn't play that morning.Mr. BALL. Why didn't you play that morning?Mr. NORMAN. Well, didn't nobody show up there to play like the guys usually come in to play. He says "DOMINO" 11 times yet no Oswald. Mr. McCLOY. You testified that you had not seen Oswald except this one occasion in the morning. Did you hear any of your friends or coworkers say whether they had seen Oswald on that morning?Mr. NORMAN. Not until afterMr. McCLOY. After the assassination?Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir; that is the only time. Mr. BALL. Did you remember seeing him at any time that morning?Mr. NORMAN. Yes; around about 10 or 10:15, somewhere in the neighborhood of that. Sure doesn't sound like a person who ate his lunch with Oswald and Jarman.... but more like your quote... "walking thru the room" From the evidence it appears no one was left in the Domino Room after Piper, Jarman and Norman see Oswald around noon. PAT - How exactly does this preclude him from being in the 2nd floor lunchroom between 12 and 12:30 when REID is there? An 11-23-63 statement to the Dallas County Sheriff’s Dept. signed by depository janitor Eddie Piper confirms: “Yesterday, at 12:00 noon, this fellow Lee says to me 'I’m going up to eat' and I went on to my lunch. I went to a front window on the first floor and ate my lunch and waited to see the President's parade go by. I saw the President pass and heard some shots and looked at the clock there and saw it was 12:25PM.” (19H499) Pat, "I'm going up to eat" surely suggests that Oswald did NOT eat in the Domino room as the rest of the evidence shows.... I read MRS. REID's testimony at that spot and it seems to me she is avoiding saying that while she was left alone by the younger girls, "THEY" = "MEN" from BELIN's question Mr. BELIN. Were there any men in the lunchroom when you left there?Mrs. REID. I can't, I don't, remember that.Mr. BELIN. All right.Mrs. REID. I can't remember the time they left. While I appreciate your colorful description of the circumstances... but it amounts to you guessing, speculating, adding facts where there are none... etc. Mrs REID and Mr. CRAIG see a different man they call Oswald than was the man Ruby killed. Sorry - but these two men aren't the same person... that more was afoot inside the TSBD than we know is no real big surprise.... "sure." Mr. BELIN. How did you know the person you saw was Lee Harvey Oswald on the second floor?Mrs. REID. Because it looked just like him.Mr. BELIN. You mean the picture with the name Lee Harvey Oswald?Mrs. REID. Oh, yes.Mr. BELIN. But you had seen him in the building?Mrs. REID. Other than that day, sure. Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what clothes he had on when you saw him?Mrs. REID. What he was wearing, he had on a white T-shirt and some kind of wash trousers. What color I couldn't tell you.Mr. BELIN. I am going to hand you what has been marked Commission Exhibit, first 157 and then 158, and I will ask you if either or both look like they might have been the trousers that you saw him wear or can you tell?Mrs. REID. I just couldn't be positive about that. I would rather not say, because I just cannot.Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether he had any shirt or jacket on over his T-shirt?Mrs. REID. He did not. He did not have any jacket on.Mr. BELIN. Have you ever seen anyone working at the book depository wearing any kind of a shirt or jacket similar to Commission Exhibit 150 or do you know?Mrs. REID. No; I do not. I have never, so far as I know ever seen that shirt. I have been asked about that shirt before, I have seen it once before but not since all this happened. Mrs. REID. Well, I kept walking and I looked up and Oswald was coming in the back door of the office. I met him by the time I passed my desk several feet and I told him, I said, "Oh, the President has been shot, but maybe they didn't hit him."He mumbled something to me, I kept walking, he did, too. I didn't pay any attention to what he said because I had no thoughts of anything of him having any connection with it at all because he was very calm. He had gotten a coke and was holding it in his hands and I guess the reason it impressed me seeing him in there I thought it was a little strange that one of -the warehouse boys would be up in the office at the time, not that he had done anything wrong. The only time I had seen him in the office was to come and get change and he already had his coke in his hand so he didn't come for change and I dismissed him. I didn't think anything else.

One of my favorite testimony passages is REID here trying NOT to say Oswald was in the lunchroom with "them/they"... Didn't anyone ever teach BELIN about leading a witness ?? Mr. BELIN. All right. Do you know about what time it was that you left the lunchroom, was it 12, 12:15?Mrs. REID. I think around 12:30 somewhere along in there. Mr. BELIN. All right. When you left the lunchroom, did you leave with the other girls?Mrs. REID. No; I didn't. The younger girls had gone and I left alone.Mr. BELIN. Were you the last person in the lunchroom?Mrs. REID. No; I could not say that because I don't remember that part of it because I was going out of the building by myself, I wasn't even, you know, connected with anyone at all.Mr. BELIN. Were there any men in the lunchroom when you left there?Mrs. REID. I can't, I don't, remember that. ["don't" what?]Mr. BELIN. All right.Mrs. REID. I can't remember the time they left.

This was the only one I could find in my files

And this is the "magic marker" type square drawn over the open wound at the back of his head... Z323 I believe

Even stranger still Steve.... FWIW... The man working up the road and staying at Beckley... H. Lee in room “O”

Why would the open or closed passenger window be such a confusing subject? Cause the "clear prints from under the passenger window" were not Lee Oswald's maybe ??? Do we know what happened to the ID of those prints?

Much has been discussed about the German/Nazi/Farben/Banking connections to those involved with the death of JFK... IBM - like all the large corps of the time - did business wherever possible and whenever profitable - regardless of client or purpose... That IBM (and some of the German NASA people) would have an interest in the goings on at the presidential level is not hard to accept. Also not too hard to accept was the deep infiltration of CIA into international businesses like IBM and Wackenhut.... just to name 2 DJ https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/ibm-and-quot-death-s-calculator-quot-2 https://archive.org/details/IbmAndTheHolocaust When Hitler came to power, a central Nazi goal was to identify and destroy Germany's 600,000 Jews. To Nazis, Jews were not just those who practiced Judaism, but those of Jewish blood, regardless of their assimilation, intermarriage, religious activity, or even conversion to Christianity. Only after Jews were identified could they be targeted for asset confiscation, ghettoization, deportation, and ultimately extermination. To search generations of communal, church, and governmental records all across Germany-and later throughout Europe-was a cross-indexing task so monumental, it called for a computer. But in 1933, no computer existed. When the Reich needed to mount a systematic campaign of Jewish economic disenfranchisement and later began the massive movement of European Jews out of their homes and into ghettos, once again, the task was so prodigious it called for a computer. But in 1933, no computer existed. When the Final Solution sought to efficiently transport Jews out of European ghettos along railroad lines and into death camps, with timing so precise the victims were able to walk right out of the boxcar and into a waiting gas chamber, the coordination was so complex a task, this too called for a computer. But in 1933, no computer existed. However, another invention did exist: the IBM punch card and card sorting system-a precursor to the computer. IBM, primarily through its German subsidiary, made Hitler's program of Jewish destruction a technologic mission the company pursued with chilling success. IBM Germany, using its own staff and equipment, designed, executed, and supplied the indispensable technologic assistance Hitler's Third Reich needed to accomplish what had never been done before-the automation of human destruction. More than 2,000 such multi-machine sets were dispatched throughout Germany, and thousands more throughout German-dominated Europe. Card sorting operations were established in every major concentration camp. People were moved from place to place, systematically worked to death, and their remains cataloged with icy automation.

deleted

Wish I had a prize for ya Chris... 1956 induction... 1961 arrest in New Orleans.... seems like something is wrong until i show you a shot of Paul Newman at 5’10” with also a 12 inch head.... I think this adds proof to the existence of two men using the name LHO in day to day living and that people have hugely diff sized heads... If that Ozzie marine photo is real.... seems so

Just to finish the thought.... There are literally no photos of the interior of the 4th floor... yet we are to remember that this building was 100' x 100' We are also to remember Vickie Adams leaving immediately and going down those back stairs.... with Styles and supposedly GARNER in tow... GARNER does not go down the stairs but does claim to hear/see policemen on the floor... As opposed to this being BAKER and/or Truly... We also have Sawyer in plain clothes with uniformed officers.... Mr. BELIN. You went up to the top floor that the elevator would go to? the 4th floor ....Mr. SAWYER. That's right. Mr. BELIN. You got off, and were there officers there? Mr. SAWYER. There was one or two other officers with me. (Harness and Haygood???)Mr. BELIN. Now when you got off, you say you went into the back there into a warehouse area? Mr. SAWYER. Storage area; what appeared to be a storage area. Mr. BELIN. Did you go into any place other than a warehouse or storage area? Mr. SAWYER. No. Mr. BELIN. Was there anything other than a warehouse or storage area there? Mr. SAWYER. Well, to one side I could see an office over there with people in it. Some women that apparently were office workers. Mr. SAWYER. I do. Mr. BELIN. Would it be fair for me to assume then that you had not at least completely left your car by 12:34 p.m? Mr. SAWYER. Correct. By that time Vickie is on the 1st floor seeing SHELLEY and LOVELADY with Eddie PIPER also lurking about along with wrapper Troy West (Piper lies his butt off regarding his activities during this time....) Marion Baker's JOB should have been to secure the front of the TSBD... not run into a potential crime scene without backup AND towing a civilian... but as we hear him say, "he had it...." Steve - this what you looking for? Mr. BELIN. Then you got down and what did you do? Mr. SAWYER. I asked the Sergeant to double check the security around the building, and then I took two patrolmen and stationed them at the front door and told them, with instructions not to let anybody in or out. Mr. BELIN. Now up to the time you did this, had anyone else sealed off the building, that you know of? Mr. SAWYER. When I arrived, the sergeant told me he had the building sealed off. There were officers all around the building. To the best of my recollection, there was no officer actually stationed on the front door, at the front door. There was some on the sidewalk in front of the front door, and also, as far as I know, had no instructions been issued to anyone to let anybody in or out. Mr. BELIN. So yours would have been the first instructions to stop traffic from coming in and out of the front door, am I correct in that? Mr. SAWYER. That's right. 12:36 260 (Sergeant D.V. Harkness) I have a witness that says that it came from the 5th floor of the Texas Book Depository Store. 12:37 Dispatcher All right, do you have the building covered off? 12:37 137 (Patrolman E.D. Brewer) No, about 3/4 of a block away from there. 12:37 2 (Assistant Chief of Police Charles Batchelor) Can you give us any information as to what happened for these people out here, evidently they had - seriousness of it - the President involved - 1 is at Parkland, along with Dallas 1. We have word it is unknown - Texas Depository Store, corner of Elm and Field - officers are now surrounding and searching the building. (Garbled) BTW - SAWYER NEVER SAYS "BATCHELOR" in any of his testimony... 12:43 15 (Capt. C.E. Talbert) Are you having them contain that block or 2 block area? 12:43 Dispatcher Yes, we are trying to seal off that building until it can be searched. 12:43 15 (Capt. C.E. Talbert) More than that building. Extend out from that building so it can be searched. 12:43 267 (Patrolman J.H. Caldwell) Do you want me to head south? 12:43 Count 12:44 Dispatcher Yes, 12:44 p.m. 12:44 9 (Inspector J.H. Sawyer) The type of weapon looked like a 30-30 rifle or some type of Winchester. 12:44 Dispatcher 9, it was a rifle? 12:44 9 (Inspector J.H. Sawyer) A rifle, yes. 12:44 Dispatcher 9, any clothing description? 12:44 9 (Inspector J.H. Sawyer) About 30, 5'10", 165 pounds. Mr. BELIN. Could you describe the man you saw in the window on the sixth floor? Mr. BRENNAN. To my best description, a man in his early thirties, fair complexion, slender but neat, neat slender, possibly 5-foot 10. Mr. BELIN. About what weight? Mr. BRENNAN. Oh, at--I calculated, I think, from 160 to 170 pounds. Mr. BELIN. A white man? [one needs to wonder why the additional question is needed... "fair complexion" should give it away... no?] Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Those that you mention in your list seem all to have something interesting to offer related to the actual shooting event.... When Rowland testified before the Commission on March 10, 1964, he claimed for the first time to have seen another person on the sixth floor. Rowland said that before he had noticed the man with the rifle on the southwest corner of the sixth floor he had seen an elderly Negro man "hanging out that window" on the southeast corner of the sixth floor.63 Rowland described the Negro man as "very thin, an elderly gentleman, bald or practically bald, very thin hair if he wasn't bald," between 50 and 60 years of age, 5 feet 8 inches to 5 feet 10 inches tall, with fairly dark complexion. 64 Rowland claimed that he looked back two or three times and noticed that the man remained until 5 or 6 minutes prior to the time the motorcade came. Rowland did not see him thereafter. He made no mention of the Negro man in his affidavit.65 So we are trying to find the significance for ROWLAND of "FBI # 921 481 F" this is the HSCA file and only mention of ROWLAND I could find. maybe cause of this?

Still pushing my way thru the doc release.... lol Yet found this in the HSCA alphabetized subject files.... Sawyer appears to have been yet another in the help to convict Ozzie... case in point: Mr. BELIN. All right, in any event--pardon me, do you have anything else to add? Mr. SAWYER. Also, there was a broadcast here in the transcript about the railroad yard. Mr. BELIN. All right. Mr. SAWYER. And this could be part of what I was thinking about, or what I had heard, was this broadcast on the radio about the railroad yard. Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? You went inside the building, is that correct? Mr. SAWYER. We immediately went inside the building. I took--I believe Sgt. Harkness may have gone with me. I am not positive of that. Mr. BELIN. Was the elevator on the first floor when you got there, or did you have to wait for it to come down? Mr. SAWYER. Best of my recollection, it was there. Mr. BELIN. You got to the elevator, went up, looked around back there. How long did you spend up there at the top floor that the elevator took you to? Mr. SAWYER. Just took a quick look around and made sure there was nobody hiding on that floor. I doubt if it took over a minute at the most. Mr. BELIN. To go up and look around and come down? Mr. SAWYER. To look around on the floor. How long it took to go up, it couldn't have been over 3 minutes at the most from the time we left, got up and back down. Mr. BELIN. Then that would put it around no sooner than 12:37, if you heard the call at 12:34? Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.

Hi Stephanie - what gives you the impression they are "FBI" numbers??? Looks to me as if they are simply in numerical order.... ???? All the numbers match the numbers in the linked report.... in which every person named has a ascending number...

Yeah, I'm just not done with this yet.... Inset in the following graphic ought to be enough proof to anyone that not only do photographs lie, they cannot be used to measure much of anything. Comparing those photos would be like comparing the photos at the bottom right... EXCEPT, the distances and focal length SHOULD be almost identical... How can the same man have a 9 and 12.5 inch head in virtually the same photo? He can't... one or the other has been "arranged" to make a 5'11" Lee Oswald appear to only be 5'9"

We have the same type of problem as the alternate Oswalds travel thru southern Texas...... Couple important points: Audrey would not be born until Oct 20th... Marina was 37 weeks pregnant... (and surprisingly we NEVER see a pregnant Marina in a single photo) and even Ozzie wouldn't drag a woman like that around TX.... Ozzie didn't drive.... didn't have a license.... Marina DID speak English very well... and then there is the old saying... Never believe anything unless the government denies it. * . . . It was inconceivable to us that someone would have been impersonating Oswald -- for what purpose, you see?* -- CIA's *John Scelso* (John Whitten) to Michael Goldsmith of the HSCA Among the myriad of Oswald sighting reports which do not fit in with the official timeline handed down by the Warren Commission is one which actually hit the Associated Press wire on November 28, 1963. Just days after being interviewed by the FBI, a radio station manager in Alice, Texas, told the AP that Oswald on the afternoon of Friday, October 4, had driven up to the station in a battered 1953 model car to inquire about a job. It also turns out that our job seeker had appeared at the station the previous evening, on Thursday, October 3, at about 6 p.m., and was told he needed to return the next day to speak to the manager. (1) Upon returning on Friday, Oswald was said to have left a woman and a two-year old girl in the car and refused an offer to bring them inside the station with the explanation that, *She doesn't speak any English.* Remembering that the boys at the Alice radio station sent their Oswald north on Highway 281 toward Pleasanton, we next find that the owner of radio station KBOP in Pleasanton, Dr. Ben Parker, recalled that sometime in the afternoon one day in early October, a man whose name he could not recall came in and said that he was driving through Pleasanton looking for a job. The man was described by Parker as about 5'7" or 5'8" and in his mid twenties with sandy hair and of a *rather dirty appearance.* He told the FBI on November 26 that he had seen Oswald on TV and thought this man could have been Oswald. Parker did not have a job for this fellow and did not see the car to notice if anyone else was in it. Parker's wife also remembered getting a phone call from the man before he stopped by the station. Freer, Texas On November 28, the owner of the B. F. Cafe in Freer called and advised the FBI that a waitress (whose name remains redacted) had seen Oswald in Freer on October 3. In her November 29 FBI interview, the waitress said that at 6:30 or 7 pm on Thursday, October 3, a man she thought was identical to Oswald, a woman resembling Marina, one child age 2-4, and one small baby estimated to be two weeks old came into the cafe.

Thx John... I went looking as I did not remember ever putting it THAT way... Ed, on the other hand, drank the Kool-Aid.

While there may “truths” mixed in, JVB has crafted a fine fiction Novel, with all the artist’s freedom allowed. Anna Lewis, her own friend and while in the room blows up her “Lee & Me” timeline by claiming they are double dating While Marina is having a baby in Minsk.... So, no John, little if any of the details attached to the major events are true. They be just what Judy wants them to be... purely entertaining to those so much less brilliant than she, but with sight into her she refuses to knowledge... Answer ur Q?

https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/poking-more-holes-in-judyth-baker try this one... or at the bottom of the pdf window you can click a link for full page text

Appreciated Paul... Creating these agreed upon frames of reference is extremely important in constructing theories around what happened. The resources of the CIA paled in comparison to the Military who they would run to first for all their needs (that is until black money, drug money, filled the coffers and the CIA became more and more Rogue... imho I only thru Tzu in there to show how for thousands of years the Military, especially run by intelligently trained leaders knew the value of the CIA's primary activity... Porting that to initiating public policy thru actions like assassination and intimidation was - again imo - taken from the GLADIO playbook from which so many of the top CIA officials come... ...and part of the reign of terror begun by Allen Dulles

Agreed... I don't think that's wrote or said that Chuck.... Quite the opposite... the MILITARY RAN THE SHOW.... especially the CIA. The CIA was/is akin to the Doberman out front barking and snarling with no regard for policy. The Military held the leash, determined o how long the chain should extend, who to scare, who to kill, who to target.... I'm sorry Chuck - I simply cannot understand how people see the CIA as some separate entity from the Military... The CIA may be the most ingenious smoke-screen cover-story for the activities of the Military we've ever known. Chia Lin says that an army without spies is like a man with ears or eyes. (Note - doesn't say "country" or "homeland" without spies.... but ARMIES.) The Military Industrial Congressional Complex Eisenhower feared made and/or owned the lease, the dog, his food, his replacement, his master on the front lines and very likely all the way up to the White House. Let's at least agree that in many if not most cases the people in the CIA had already spent time in the military and had attained higher than usual rankings. Once they were no longer "military" but acting for THE AGENCY, their ability to do so much more without oversight mushrooms out of control. The AGENCY was involved with information gathering outside the USA yet as we all know, CIA assets (as well as FBI, ONI, MID and other 3-letter agencies) permeated all walks of life and all forms of employment... secretaries, mail-room employees, trash collectors... anyone who may have access to info, codes, keys, etc.... +++++++ SUN TZU All warfare is based on deception. Hence, when we are able to attack, we must seem unable; when using our forces, we must appear inactive; when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when far away, we must make him believe we are near. If your enemy is secure at all points, be prepared for him. If he is in superior strength, evade him. If your opponent is temperamental, seek to irritate him. Pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant. If he is taking his ease, give him no rest. If his forces are united, separate them. Attack him where he is unprepared, appear where you are not expected. The Use of Spies Sun Tzu said: Raising a host of a hundred thousand men and marching them great distances entails heavy loss on the people and a drain on the resources of the State. The daily expenditure will amount to a thousand ounces of silver. [1]There will be commotion at home and abroad, and men will drop down exhausted on the highways. [2] As many as seven hundred thousand families will be impeded in their labor. [3] Hostile armies may face each other for years, striving for the victory which is decided in a single day. This being so, to remain in ignorance of the enemy's condition simply because one grudges the outlay of a hundred ounces of silver in honors and emoluments, [4] is the height of inhumanity. [5] One who acts thus is no leader of men, no present help to his sovereign, no master of victory. [6] Thus, what enables the wise sovereign and the good general to strike and conquer, and achieve things beyond the reach of ordinary men, is FOREKNOWLEDGE. [7] Now this foreknowledge cannot be elicited from spirits; it cannot be obtained inductively from experience, [8] nor by any deductive calculation. [9] Knowledge of the enemy's dispositions can only be obtained from other men. [10] Hence the use of spies, of whom there are five classes: (1) Local spies; (2) inward spies; (3) converted spies; (4) doomed spies; (5) surviving spies. When these five kinds of spy are all at work, none can discover the secret system. This is called "divine manipulation of the threads." It is the sovereign's most precious faculty. [11] Having LOCAL SPIES means employing the services of the inhabitants of a district. [12] Having INWARD SPIES, making use of officials of the enemy. [13] Having CONVERTED SPIES, getting hold of the enemy's spies and using them for our own purposes. [14] Having DOOMED SPIES, doing certain things openly for purposes of deception, and allowing our spies to know of them and report them to the enemy. [15] SURVIVING SPIES, finally, are those who bring back news from the enemy's camp. [16] Hence it is that which none in the whole army are more intimate relations to be maintained than with spies. [17] None should be more liberally rewarded. In no other business should greater secrecy be preserved. [18] Spies cannot be usefully employed without a certain intuitive sagacity. [19] They cannot be properly managed without benevolence and straightforwardness. [20] Without subtle ingenuity of mind, one cannot make certain of the truth of their reports. [21] Be subtle! be subtle! and use your spies for every kind of business. [22] If a secret piece of news is divulged by a spy before the time is ripe, he must be put to death together with the man to whom the secret was told. [23] Whether the object be to crush an army, to storm a city, or to assassinate an individual, it is always necessary to begin by finding out the names of the attendants, the aides-de- camp, [24] and door-keepers and sentries of the general in command. Our spies must be commissioned to ascertain these. [25] The enemy's spies who have come to spy on us must be sought out, tempted with bribes, led away and comfortably housed. Thus they will become converted spies and available for our service. It is through the information brought by the converted spy that we are able to acquire and employ local and inward spies. [26] It is owing to his information, again, that we can cause the doomed spy to carry false tidings to the enemy. [27] Lastly, it is by his information that the surviving spy can be used on appointed occasions. The end and aim of spying in all its five varieties is knowledge of the enemy; and this knowledge can only be derived, in the first instance, from the converted spy. [28] Hence it is essential that the converted spy be treated with the utmost liberality. Of old, the rise of the Yin dynasty [29] was due to I Chih [30] who had served under the Hsia. Likewise, the rise of the Chou dynasty was due to Lu Ya [31] who had served under the Yin. [32] Hence it is only the enlightened ruler and the wise general who will use the highest intelligence of the army for purposes of spying and thereby they achieve great results. [33] Spies are a most important element in water, because on them depends an army's ability to move. [34] [1] Cf. II. ss. ss. 1, 13, 14. [2] Cf. TAO TE CHING, ch. 30: "Where troops have been quartered, brambles and thorns spring up. Chang Yu has the note: "We may be reminded of the saying: 'On serious ground, gather in plunder.' Why then should carriage and transportation cause exhaustion on the highways?-The answer is, that not victuals alone, but all sorts of munitions of war have to be conveyed to the army. Besides, the injunction to 'forage on the enemy' only means that when an army is deeply engaged in hostile territory, scarcity of food must be provided against. Hence, without being solely dependent on the enemy for corn, we must forage in order that there may be an uninterrupted flow of supplies. Then, again, there are places like salt deserts where provisions being unobtainable, supplies from home cannot be dispensed with." [3] Mei Yao-ch`en says: "Men will be lacking at the plough- tail." The allusion is to the system of dividing land into nine parts, each consisting of about 15 acres, the plot in the center being cultivated on behalf of the State by the tenants of the other eight. It was here also, so Tu Mu tells us, that their cottages were built and a well sunk, to be used by all in common. [See II. ss. 12, note.] In time of war, one of the families had to serve in the army, while the other seven contributed to its support. Thus, by a levy of 100,000 men (reckoning one able- bodied soldier to each family) the husbandry of 700,000 families would be affected. [4] "For spies" is of course the meaning, though it would spoil the effect of this curiously elaborate exordium if spies were actually mentioned at this point. [5] Sun Tzu's agreement is certainly ingenious. He begins by adverting to the frightful misery and vast expenditure of blood and treasure which war always brings in its train. Now, unless you are kept informed of the enemy's condition, and are ready to strike at the right moment, a war may drag on for years. The only way to get this information is to employ spies, and it is impossible to obtain trustworthy spies unless they are properly paid for their services. But it is surely false economy to grudge a comparatively trifling amount for this purpose, when every day that the war lasts eats up an incalculably greater sum. This grievous burden falls on the shoulders of the poor, and hence Sun Tzu concludes that to neglect the use of spies is nothing less than a crime against humanity. [6] This idea, that the true object of war is peace, has its root in the national temperament of the Chinese. Even so far back as 597 B.C., these memorable words were uttered by Prince Chuang of the Ch`u State: "The [Chinese] character for 'prowess' is made up of [the characters for] 'to stay' and 'a spear' (cessation of hostilities). Military prowess is seen in the repression of cruelty, the calling in of weapons, the preservation of the appointment of Heaven, the firm establishment of merit, the bestowal of happiness on the people, putting harmony between the princes, the diffusion of wealth." [7] That is, knowledge of the enemy's dispositions, and what he means to do. [8] Tu Mu's note is: "[knowledge of the enemy] cannot be gained by reasoning from other analogous cases." [9] Li Ch`uan says: "Quantities like length, breadth, distance and magnitude, are susceptible of exact mathematical determination; human actions cannot be so calculated." [10] Mei Yao-ch`en has rather an interesting note: "Knowledge of the spirit-world is to be obtained by divination; information in natural science may be sought by inductive reasoning; the laws of the universe can be verified by mathematical calculation: but the dispositions of an enemy are ascertainable through spies and spies alone." [11] Cromwell, one of the greatest and most practical of all cavalry leaders, had officers styled 'scout masters,' whose business it was to collect all possible information regarding the enemy, through scouts and spies, etc., and much of his success in war was traceable to the previous knowledge of the enemy's moves thus gained." ["Aids to Scouting," p. 2.] [12] Tu Mu says: "In the enemy's country, win people over by kind treatment, and use them as spies." [13] Tu Mu enumerates the following classes as likely to do good service in this respect: "Worthy men who have been degraded from office, criminals who have undergone punishment; also, favorite concubines who are greedy for gold, men who are aggrieved at being in subordinate positions, or who have been passed over in the distribution of posts, others who are anxious that their side should be defeated in order that they may have a chance of displaying their ability and talents, fickle turncoats who always want to have a foot in each boat. Officials of these several kinds," he continues, "should be secretly approached and bound to one's interests by means of rich presents. In this way you will be able to find out the state of affairs in the enemy's country, ascertain the plans that are being formed against you, and moreover disturb the harmony and create a breach between the sovereign and his ministers." The necessity for extreme caution, however, in dealing with "inward spies," appears from an historical incident related by Ho Shih: "Lo Shang, Governor of I-Chou, sent his general Wei Po to attack the rebel Li Hsiung of Shu in his stronghold at P`i. After each side had experienced a number of victories and defeats, Li Hsiung had recourse to the services of a certain P`o-t`ai, a native of Wu-tu. He began to have him whipped until the blood came, and then sent him off to Lo Shang, whom he was to delude by offering to cooperate with him from inside the city, and to give a fire signal at the right moment for making a general assault. Lo Shang, confiding in these promises, march out all his best troops, and placed Wei Po and others at their head with orders to attack at P`o-t`ai's bidding. Meanwhile, Li Hsiung's general, Li Hsiang, had prepared an ambuscade on their line of march; and P`o-t`ai, having reared long scaling-ladders against the city walls, now lighted the beacon-fire. Wei Po's men raced up on seeing the signal and began climbing the ladders as fast as they could, while others were drawn up by ropes lowered from above. More than a hundred of Lo Shang's soldiers entered the city in this way, every one of whom was forthwith beheaded. Li Hsiung then charged with all his forces, both inside and outside the city, and routed the enemy completely." [This happened in 303 A.D. I do not know where Ho Shih got the story from. It is not given in the biography of Li Hsiung or that of his father Li T`e, CHIN SHU, ch. 120, 121.] [14] By means of heavy bribes and liberal promises detaching them from the enemy's service, and inducing them to carry back false information as well as to spy in turn on their own countrymen. On the other hand, Hsiao Shih-hsien says that we pretend not to have detected him, but contrive to let him carry away a false impression of what is going on. Several of the commentators accept this as an alternative definition; but that it is not what Sun Tzu meant is conclusively proved by his subsequent remarks about treating the converted spy generously (ss. 21 sqq.). Ho Shih notes three occasions on which converted spies were used with conspicuous success: (1) by T`ien Tan in his defense of Chi-mo (see supra, p. 90); (2) by Chao She on his march to O-yu (see p. 57); and by the wily Fan Chu in 260 B.C., when Lien P`o was conducting a defensive campaign against Ch`in. The King of Chao strongly disapproved of Lien P`o's cautious and dilatory methods, which had been unable to avert a series of minor disasters, and therefore lent a ready ear to the reports of his spies, who had secretly gone over to the enemy and were already in Fan Chu's pay. They said: "The only thing which causes Ch`in anxiety is lest Chao Kua should be made general. Lien P`o they consider an easy opponent, who is sure to be vanquished in the long run." Now this Chao Kua was a sun of the famous Chao She. From his boyhood, he had been wholly engrossed in the study of war and military matters, until at last he came to believe that there was no commander in the whole Empire who could stand against him. His father was much disquieted by this overweening conceit, and the flippancy with which he spoke of such a serious thing as war, and solemnly declared that if ever Kua was appointed general, he would bring ruin on the armies of Chao. This was the man who, in spite of earnest protests from his own mother and the veteran statesman Lin Hsiang-ju, was now sent to succeed Lien P`o. Needless to say, he proved no match for the redoubtable Po Ch`i and the great military power of Ch`in. He fell into a trap by which his army was divided into two and his communications cut; and after a desperate resistance lasting 46 days, during which the famished soldiers devoured one another, he was himself killed by an arrow, and his whole force, amounting, it is said, to 400,000 men, ruthlessly put to the sword. [15] Tu Yu gives the best exposition of the meaning: "We ostentatiously do thing calculated to deceive our own spies, who must be led to believe that they have been unwittingly disclosed. Then, when these spies are captured in the enemy's lines, they will make an entirely false report, and the enemy will take measures accordingly, only to find that we do something quite different. The spies will thereupon be put to death." As an example of doomed spies, Ho Shih mentions the prisoners released by Pan Ch`ao in his campaign against Yarkand. (See p. 132.) He also refers to T`ang Chien, who in 630 A.D. was sent by T`ai Tsung to lull the Turkish Kahn Chieh-li into fancied security, until Li Ching was able to deliver a crushing blow against him. Chang Yu says that the Turks revenged themselves by killing T`ang Chien, but this is a mistake, for we read in both the old and the New T`ang History (ch. 58, fol. 2 and ch. 89, fol. 8 respectively) that he escaped and lived on until 656. Li I-chi played a somewhat similar part in 203 B.C., when sent by the King of Han to open peaceful negotiations with Ch`i. He has certainly more claim to be described a "doomed spy", for the king of Ch`i, being subsequently attacked without warning by Han Hsin, and infuriated by what he considered the treachery of Li I-chi, ordered the unfortunate envoy to be boiled alive. [16] This is the ordinary class of spies, properly so called, forming a regular part of the army. Tu Mu says: "Your surviving spy must be a man of keen intellect, though in outward appearance a fool; of shabby exterior, but with a will of iron. He must be active, robust, endowed with physical strength and courage; thoroughly accustomed to all sorts of dirty work, able to endure hunger and cold, and to put up with shame and ignominy." Ho Shih tells the following story of Ta`hsi Wu of the Sui dynasty: "When he was governor of Eastern Ch`in, Shen-wu of Ch`i made a hostile movement upon Sha-yuan. The Emperor T`ai Tsu [? Kao Tsu] sent Ta-hsi Wu to spy upon the enemy. He was accompanied by two other men. All three were on horseback and wore the enemy's uniform. When it was dark, they dismounted a few hundred feet away from the enemy's camp and stealthily crept up to listen, until they succeeded in catching the passwords used in the army. Then they got on their horses again and boldly passed through the camp under the guise of night-watchmen; and more than once, happening to come across a soldier who was committing some breach of discipline, they actually stopped to give the culprit a sound cudgeling! Thus they managed to return with the fullest possible information about the enemy's dispositions, and received warm commendation from the Emperor, who in consequence of their report was able to inflict a severe defeat on his adversary." [17] Tu Mu and Mei Yao-ch`en point out that the spy is privileged to enter even the general's private sleeping-tent. [18] Tu Mu gives a graphic touch: all communication with spies should be carried "mouth-to-ear." The following remarks on spies may be quoted from Turenne, who made perhaps larger use of them than any previous commander: "Spies are attached to those who give them most, he who pays them ill is never served. They should never be known to anybody; nor should they know one another. When they propose anything very material, secure their persons, or have in your possession their wives and children as hostages for their fidelity. Never communicate anything to them but what is absolutely necessary that they should know. ["Marshal Turenne," p. 311.] [19] Mei Yao-ch`en says: "In order to use them, one must know fact from falsehood, and be able to discriminate between honesty and double-dealing." Wang Hsi in a different interpretation thinks more along the lines of "intuitive perception" and "practical intelligence." Tu Mu strangely refers these attributes to the spies themselves: "Before using spies we must assure ourselves as to their integrity of character and the extent of their experience and skill." But he continues: "A brazen face and a crafty disposition are more dangerous than mountains or rivers; it takes a man of genius to penetrate such." So that we are left in some doubt as to his real opinion on the passage." [20] Chang Yu says: "When you have attracted them by substantial offers, you must treat them with absolute sincerity; then they will work for you with all their might." [21] Mei Yao-ch`en says: "Be on your guard against the possibility of spies going over to the service of the enemy." [22] Cf. VI. ss. 9. [23] Word for word, the translation here is: "If spy matters are heard before [our plans] are carried out," etc. Sun Tzu's main point in this passage is: Whereas you kill the spy himself "as a punishment for letting out the secret," the object of killing the other man is only, as Ch`en Hao puts it, "to stop his mouth" and prevent news leaking any further. If it had already been repeated to others, this object would not be gained. Either way, Sun Tzu lays himself open to the charge of inhumanity, though Tu Mu tries to defend him by saying that the man deserves to be put to death, for the spy would certainly not have told the secret unless the other had been at pains to worm it out of him." [24] Literally "visitors", is equivalent, as Tu Yu says, to "those whose duty it is to keep the general supplied with information," which naturally necessitates frequent interviews with him. [25] As the first step, no doubt towards finding out if any of these important functionaries can be won over by bribery. [26] Tu Yu says: "through conversion of the enemy's spies we learn the enemy's condition." And Chang Yu says: "We must tempt the converted spy into our service, because it is he that knows which of the local inhabitants are greedy of gain, and which of the officials are open to corruption." [27] Chang Yu says, "because the converted spy knows how the enemy can best be deceived." [28] As explained in ss. 22-24. He not only brings information himself, but makes it possible to use the other kinds of spy to advantage. [29] Sun Tzu means the Shang dynasty, founded in 1766 B.C. Its name was changed to Yin by P`an Keng in 1401. [30] Better known as I Yin, the famous general and statesman who took part in Ch`eng T`ang's campaign against Chieh Kuei. [31] Lu Shang rose to high office under the tyrant Chou Hsin, whom he afterwards helped to overthrow. Popularly known as T`ai Kung, a title bestowed on him by Wen Wang, he is said to have composed a treatise on war, erroneously identified with the LIU T`AO. [32] There is less precision in the Chinese than I have thought it well to introduce into my translation, and the commentaries on the passage are by no means explicit. But, having regard to the context, we can hardly doubt that Sun Tzu is holding up I Chih and Lu Ya as illustrious examples of the converted spy, or something closely analogous. His suggestion is, that the Hsia and Yin dynasties were upset owing to the intimate knowledge of their weaknesses and shortcoming which these former ministers were able to impart to the other side. Mei Yao-ch`en appears to resent any such aspersion on these historic names: "I Yin and Lu Ya," he says, "were not rebels against the Government. Hsia could not employ the former, hence Yin employed him. Yin could not employ the latter, hence Hou employed him. Their great achievements were all for the good of the people." Ho Shih is also indignant: "How should two divinely inspired men such as I and Lu have acted as common spies? Sun Tzu's mention of them simply means that the proper use of the five classes of spies is a matter which requires men of the highest mental caliber like I and Lu, whose wisdom and capacity qualified them for the task. The above words only emphasize this point." Ho Shih believes then that the two heroes are mentioned on account of their supposed skill in the use of spies. But this is very weak. [33] Tu Mu closes with a note of warning: "Just as water, which carries a boat from bank to bank, may also be the means of sinking it, so reliance on spies, while production of great results, is oft-times the cause of utter destruction." [34] Chia Lin says that an army without spies is like a man with ears or eyes.

Jim, the BYP and CE139 are the rifles in my overlay and it shows how different images of the same thing yet with a variety of details different, makes it impossible to do size comparisons on a 2d image. That and the rifles are not even facing the camera the same way... when someone employs Photogrammetry and does actual measurements, we’ll know... Ive been doing image comparisons a long time now... with different focal lengths and distances, comparisons are only estimations. Tell us it was the same camera at diff distances, or same distance diff focal length... and we can.

Pretty sure the best source for info would be Prouty..... without the backing of military intervention, I fail to see how the CIA can operate on large scales like Vietnam. One a small scale the CIA was much more maneuverable than the behemoth ONI/MID orgs. The first 4 directors were military men, Navy-AF-Navy-AF in fact... Admiral Hillenkotter went from last DCI to first Dir CIA And he totally blew it on the Korean War... ONI and MID had been around since the late 1800’s.... FBI SIS was given the intel job in the Western Hemisphere from 1940-1945... I think the military sees Hoover and his organizational skills a threat to their already existing intel establishment... Under the National Security Act of 1947 he was nominated and confirmed by the U.S. Senate as DCI, now in charge of the newly established Central Intelligence Agency (December 1947). At first, the U.S. State Departmentdirected the new CIA's covert operations component, and George F. Kennan chose Frank Wisner to be its director. Hillenkoetter expressed doubt that the same agency could be effective at both covert action and intelligence analysis.

Not that I’ve seen.... Here’s a bit more detail.... https://statick2k-5f2f.kxcdn.com/images/pdf/JudythBaker-DJ.pdf Edited and complete assist from Jimmy