David Josephs

https://www.mtv.fi/uutiset/rikos/artikkeli/supo-paljasti-salaiset-paperit-hotellikortit-hammentavat-mita-john-f-kennedyn-murhaaja-teki-helsingissa/6667428 you'll need to Google translate this into English but... In Kurd, Oswald was until October 15, when he left on a train to Moscow. The hotel card was originally booked in Stockholm. Subsequently, it was repaired in a different handwriting area that Oswald left via Vainikkala to Moscow.

https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/REDCAP_0033.pdf Operational/ZRPENNY (ZRPENNY Activity to counter Cuban student participation in communist-sponsored world youth festival in Helsinki in 1962.) 8th World Youth Festival... Festival in 1959 was in Vienna

Context... Anatoli Golitsyn was granted political asylum when he surrendered to CIA Station Chief in HELSINKI in late 1959... I can't seem to find the name of that chief.... found the memos sent but the name is always redacted.... Oswald shows up in a few weeks... sources state he was the first to use the quick turnaround visa process described in a recent memo chronologically... Setting a reservation is just a phone call... I'd think... (I like how WEBSTER and OSWALD are listed as "Tourists" on the defector's list...

LOL... My point above is only that PEOPLE are the problem, not the institutions/agencies. Google "Tragedy of the Commons" - basically it's the concept that a for shared resource among a community where shared and equal use returns the best yields, the "Tragedy" is that PEOPLE will be motivated to use more of the "Commons" than is prudent since there is no explicit rule against it, on the altruism of the community... --- Regarding the work Chris - and to some extent I - have been working thru... Tom Purvis was given the original survey data by Robert West... this data directly conflicts with the end results of the WCR yet corroborates the earlier surveys... the shots where WEST and the first 3 surveys put them changes over time for a variety of reasons... It started with a premise that I grabbed onto and ran with - that the Zfilm was taken at 48fps not the 16fps setting available... that the 18.3fps was a number that worked for what the FBI did to the data and a number that turned out to be the exact rise and run of Elm Street's decline... 1 vertical foot equals 18.3 horizontal feet as you move down Elm... you'll notice too that the curved lines on the survey plat are 9 feet apart... makes the math and reposition of key locations easier... The FBI used "variable levers" of measurement to do what they needed to... so the rifle in the window changes elevation as needed, JFK's head changes, the stand-in limo is too tall yet the adjustments for that difference do not account for the difference... the final "lever" of movement was the path of the limo itself... SHANEYFELT took West's measurements and moved the spots south 1' on Elm..... the divergence of paths begins at 2+50 to account for the real possibility that the limo did turn very wide onto Elm and did pass thru POSITION A as marked below... When one places the limo at the spot WEST marks as 166 and another limo where Shaneyfelt puts 171 (the CE884 switch from 168-171 to 161-166) the yellow line of sight from Zapruder shows both JFK's in a straight line... from Zapruder's camera's POV the limo and JFK would appear in the same place at FBI171 as WEST's 166... (this is also why Tom Wilson's work showed a problem lining things up based on the info given... the info given is designed NOT to work.) Now understanding that the measurements are not accurate or representative... it's fairly easy to being using the math to see how elevations and station #'s were used to confuse the issue. Z313 was originally the 2nd shot... and it was "around" z313... (A NOTE here: there were more than 3 shots fired... yet if orchestrated by a "Fire" command over walkie-Talkie, 2-3 shots can sound like 1... yet the 6th floor would only have 3 shells so there was only 3 shots... #1 hit JFK in the throat, #2 hits JC and #3 - down by Altgens at the Steps near Station 5+00... THAT was agreed upon... Well before TAGUE comes along EISENBERG and others figure out that the info from these Surveys shows a shot well past z313... for which there is indeed good evidence... The SBT has been cooking for some time now... On April 14 and 21, two conferences were held at the Commission to determine when, exactly, the president and governor were struck. Assistant counsel Melvin Eisenberg wrote in a memorandum dated April 22 on the first conference that the consensus of those attending was, among other issues, that Kennedy was struck by frames 225–6 and that “the velocity of the first bullet [which struck Kennedy] would have been little diminished by its passage through the President. Therefore, if Governor Connally was in the path of the bullet it would have struck him and caused the wounds he sustained in his chest cavity.. By the end of April 1964, the Commission had its working theory, the single-bullet theory, to account for the apparent timing discrepancies found in the Zapruder film and the lack of any damage to the limousine from a high-velocity bullet exiting the president's throat This is Eisenberg's drawing to determine the lead needed... yet another LEVER to adjust based on what was needed. This turn also includes the Dale Myers Townsend film charade.... so when I suggested that they simply changed the frame numbers to line up with 133... Chris ran with that and found it to be correct... That the jump fromz132 to z133 was really a splice... add in another 33 frames and we have the infamous z166.... None of the camera speeds was correct. The speed difference for MYERS' Towner camera amounts to 33 frames worth or 1.8 seconds between a speed of 22 and change and 18.3... the removal of those 33 frames allows the REAL frame 166 to be z133.... Remember, the frame numbers starting at z133 are completely arbitrary... by removing those 33 frames from both films... the shot down by 5+00 was effectively moved to Z313... or thereabouts. This will help somewhat too

Got another for you Steve... https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/2018/104-10418-10332.pdf

An Ohio appears to be where many of the defectors on that list came from.... the home of the RAND corp, among others

https://www.opednews.com/articles/2/THE-JFK-CASE--THE-TWELVE-by-Bill-Simpich-100830-157.html?p=2&f=THE-JFK-CASE--THE-TWELVE-by-Bill-Simpich-100830-157.html A REDCAP/LCIMPROVE memo dated 8/28/59 has Costille discussing how he set up the date for Golub with the trusted Finnish girl - there was a lot of alcohol and flirtation, but no actual sex. The central focus of this memo was that Soviet consul Gregory Golub would issue visas immediately and without Moscow approval. "As long as the Americans had made travel arrangements through a local travel bureau, as well as hotel reservations, (Golub) said he had no objections to giving them a visa in a matter of minutes." So he already had reservations at Torni and one would assume this is done thru Intourist... yet Intourist is a Russian travel agency.... so we'd have to assume it was chock full 'o spies.... but not making reservations for American defectors.... I have to wonder when the train reservations were made from Helsinki to Vyborg crossing and then to Moscow... http://retours.eu/en/39-intourist-USSR-posters/ http://www.intourist.com/about.aspx?id=9804958&currency=USD RISE 1954-1973 The Intourist Charter adopted in 1955 provided for the development of both domestic and foreign tourism as well as the reception of foreigners passing through the USSR in transit. Intourist received authorization to become a member of various national and international organisations, commissions, etc. The development of international ties and the consolidation of the Eastern Bloc countries resulted in the emergence of other organisationsauthorised to arrange foreign tours for our compatriots, such as the Sputnik Youth Tourism Bureau, the Union of Societies of Friendship with Foreign Countries, and others. Nevertheless, Intourist continued to hold the leading position in both the size and variety of services. In 1956 about half a million foreign citizens from 84 countries — 5 times more than during the pre-war decade — visited the Soviet Union. And more than one million Soviet people went abroad in the same year. In 1964 the number of foreign tourists visiting the USSR exceeded 1 million people, and more than 900 thousand Soviet citizens travelled abroad. Intourist did its best to make it possible for ordinary citizens of our country to travel abroad and to increase their travel options. The activities of Intourist promoted the establishment of warmer human relations among nations. Intourist became a major partner of more than 700 tourist companies operating in one hundred countries around the world. About 100 VAO Intourist offices and agencies were operating on the territory of the USSR.During the period from 1966 to 1972, forty tourists facilities including hotels, motels and campsites were constructed in 30 of the country’s cities. In 1969 the Directorate was transformed into the Main Directorate of the Council of Ministers of the USSR. VAO Intourist entered this body having the rights of a Commercial Directorate. Sergey Nikitin was the head of the Main Directorate on foreign tourism, Victor Boychenko was his deputy and the chief of the Commercial Directorate. https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/sexual-blackmail-russia-style-a-history-of-kompromat-1.2934451 When the Soviet Union set up the Intourist hotel and travel company under Stalin, the bellboys, drivers, cooks and maids all worked for the NKVD, the secret police agency later known as the KGB. Also on the payroll were the prostitutes deployed to entrap and blackmail visiting foreign politicians and businessmen. Russia’s Intourist hotels have since been sold off, including the travel company’s once dowdy flagship hostelry just down the road from the Kremlin. Lavishly refurbished and fitted with a spa and special security features, the hotel is now the Ritz-Carlton, a five-star temple of luxurious living that promotes itself as an “unforgettable retreat in the heart of the city”. But, according to uncorroborated and highly defamatory memos prepared by a former British intelligence operative for a Washington political and corporate research firm, the Ritz has remained a place where foreign guests, including Donald Trump, can fall victim to the Russian art of “kompromat”, the collection of compromising material as a source of leverage. https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/AERODYNAMIC VOL. 17 (OPERATIONS)_0063.pdf 4. Expansion of Fl Collection Mechanism. The following types of expansion seem desirable: A. Similar to the NTS, the AECASSOWARIES have sought for several years to create operational residenturas in various Free World areas to which Soviet Ukrainians normally travel, e.g., Istanbul, Athens, Rome, Naples, Paris, London, Helsinki, Stockholm, etc. So far, residenturas exist only in New York, Munich, Paris, Istanbul (one man who is having a rough time with it), Stockholm, London, Winnipeg and Edmonton. Lack of funds and case officer time to help push this AECASSOWARY effort have been the main obstacles. Young, intelligent and highly motivated men and women are available for these jobs. On our side we do not have peo ple available to handle the training and briefing Of resident agents nor have we selected anyone to be in contact with them in their area of operations. https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP75-00149R000700220013-0.pdf Gloria Steinem worked with CIA to organize groups of American youth to attend World Youth Festivals in Vienna and Helsinki in 1959 & 1962. https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP75-00149R000800100020-4.pdf National Student Association (NSA) gets funds from CIA to send kids to festivals - including those with Communist sponsorship

LOL not sure why that happens... here is my entire list of essays published on K&K... https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/the-evidence-is-the-conspiracy-index https://kennedysandking.com/content/the-pistol - the pdf is contained in a frame that doesn't always make it easy to read... underneath is the pdf link... click it there and it works fine...

REA... Charged shipping which was never collected and supposedly sent a postcard to Oswald's (Hidell) PO Box telling him to come get the pistol... None of these items of evidence exist... https://statick2k-5f2f.kxcdn.com/images/pdf/JosephsPistol.pdf

Thanks Mike... A patriot in the CIA - who would have thought...

I have GAUDET's testimony as he tells of seeing Bannister speaking with Oswald about some task he was giving him... His impression was they knew each other well... There truly is no reason not to investigate GAUDET simply picking up and/or dropping off an app that's already filled out by an "Oswald"... GAUDET was supposedly in and out of Mexico in a day... If he brought the tourist Visa with him... but that's just speculating.... There are in actuality a number of reports from the people who where at the Consulate that day... and their stories don't jive with GAUDET's version... If you read NORTH's report, he was there around 9:45 while the DE MEN's claim they didn't get their visas until Sept 19/20... The FACT that Sept 16 was the day they decided to get started on the FPCC: Hardaway Dec On September 16, 1963, the CIA informed the FBI that it was considering action to counter the activities of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee (FFCC) in foreign countries.^^ In New Orleans, on September 17,1963, Oswald applied for, and received, a Mexican travel visa.^^ Followed by the FACT Phillips arrives in Mexico on Oct 7th with the first cable about Oswald going out the 8th... I find it not to conclude that GAUDET had some hand in the creation of that document... and Oswald was never at the Mexican Consulate... Other than GAUDET's, these are the applications from Sept 17th... provided by Ruben Gaxiola.... WCD75 p649

Paz... we are not so concerned with the time taken as with the manner of payment for his time there... With so little money, a $50- $100 a night hotel would be out of the question.... the "student" should be looking for Youth Hostels or other inexpensive means of hanging around waiting for his VISA into Russia... Know it usually take much longer he MUST have known to use Golub (or was directed) otherwise he'd have to spend a week or more at these high price hotels... the closer one looks, the more it appears the path is being cleared for him... If there were relationships between the CIA and these Hotels, which would make sense, then some other means of payment was performed.... One has to wonder who is footing the bill and how the money is either given to Oswald or paid directly....

Now I'm confused... John Whitten was a high ranking CIA official... he's the author of the Scelso Deposition... why would he be working to expose the CIA? Is this the same person you mean ?? With regards to Hardaway and Lopez... I think all one need know is this: The assumption was that Oswald was actually there... a very poor place from which to start.... http://jfkfacts.org/hardway-declaration-cia-stonewalled-jfk-investigation/ At the CIA, Angleton killed John Whitten’s efforts to investigate Oswald’s Cuban contacts. I learned that David Atlee Phillips, contrary to his sworn testimony to the HSCA in his first Executive Session appearance, had not been in Mexico City at the time of LHO's alleged visit to that city. He had been on a temporary duty assignment at CIA Headquarters and at the CIA JMWAVE station in Miami. Yes, yet as I show.. Phillips is promoted to the Cuban Desk in Mexico on Friday Sept 27.... while Oswald, Mugrado and "Leopoldo" are with Odio in Dallas... I was able to establish that most of the sources of the stories (read: Alvarado & Duran) were, or had been, agents or assets used at one time or another by David Atlee Phillips ----- It also delves into the DRE and the staged encounter in New Orleans... yet Odio and the two other men spoke of JURE And weren't those two groups at odds with each other? 1 man involved with both groups would be a big red flag... right?

I sent John the question as well.... weren’t credit cards introduced around then.... AmEx. Diners club.... idk Prepaid? A billing agreement....? Where did you get these hotels were so classy? Look them up now and they’re $250 a night places .... Not exactly 5 stars... and why leave Torni if it’s paid for? Do we have any evidence he was anywhere other than the hotels and consular office? Y’know like MX. With no other record of activities... was it even our Ozzie. I mean what’s he doing for a few days, alone in Helsinki?

Eddy... People make these decisions and perform these action... not institutions.. If there has been a form of governance that accounts for the Tragedy of the Commons and safeguards against it... please show us.... the weakness is part of the human condition... in small enough groups it can be overcome... But like so many things... scaling up causes these weaknesses to go longer and longer unchecked... It's a mindset which allows for too much wiggle room related to morality.... so if you have a few years... we can discuss it

The lady doth protest too much, methinks. Standing there urinating into the wind and telling yourself and everyone else it's lemonade is amusing, but now a complete waste of time... By all means MH... STFU and GTFH...

the amounts to a truly uneducated view of history and the JFK presidency... and, well, a fairly stupid thing to post on a JFK forum... I'm not here to give you a history lesson Mervyn... not that you'd believe me in any case.... As a student of history I know that Plato wrote about the same thing thousands of years ago as is occurring now... The Tragedy of the Commons... Property Ownership Sovereignty and how that is interpreted by each nation-state Sun Tzu's The Art of War *... I have Butler's book... and it truly does not expose anything that earth-shattering if you spend any time looking at history... On the other hand - most people are not aware of George Creel and - "How We Advertised America" or one of Dulles' favorites: Edward Bernays - "Propaganda - the birth of modern advertising and mass psyops (1928) Then there's AA Berle's "Modern Corporations and Private Property" The Asst Sec of State pushed intelligence gathering in the Western Hemisphere to the FBI's SIS - the precursor to today's "Legit" network... Mervyn.... I am glad you are aware of the semi-covert Wall Street backing of FDR and the entire Roosevelt family... By 1933 Butler started denouncing capitalism and bankers, going on to explain that for 33 years he had been a "high-class muscle man" for Wall Street, the bankers and big business, labeling himself as a "racketeer for Capitalism." Speaking of "high-class musclemen"... you truly need to go back to COLONEL HOUSE and Woodrow Wilson to find the greatest coup and change in US history... the creation of the Federal Reserve Banking system... and the formation of the Council on Foreign Relations... ====================== And just keep going back Mervyn... the rich constituted the SPY class up thru the 60's since they could afford to travel on their own dime... often did and then reported back to interested parties.... when the OSS was formed it made sure to recruit Ivy League, fraternity-based rich men... and it also made sure to be controlled by the Military... the CIA is born... run by a Navy Admiral... As you read thru these WAGING WAR tenants, remind yourself of the Tragedy of the Commons... and begin to see that should man ever rise above his greed, he can experience WAR like this... but since WAR remains one of the most profitable activities for those supplying the military, the TRAGEDY turned those with the power into war-supporting machines... JFK wanted to do away with WMDs and work to make the world a safer place... that you cannot see what happens immediately after he is gone as a change in US policy is kinda sad... That you cannot see how Salandria's word were prophetic : The forces that killed Kennedy wanted the message clear: 'We are in control and no one -- not the President, nor Congress, nor any elected official -- no one can do anything about it. Until JFK - the all happens behind the scenes... with JFK and after, the population's confidence and total trust in the government erodes to the point now we KNOW we're getting screwed every day in most every way *WAGING WAR 1. Sun Tzu said: In the operations of war, where there are in the field a thousand swift chariots, as many heavy chariots, and a hundred thousand mail-clad soldiers, with provisions enough to carry them a thousand li, the expenditure at home and at the front, including entertainment of guests, small items such as glue and paint, and sums spent on chariots and armor, will reach the total of a thousand ounces of silver per day. Such is the cost of raising an army of 100,000 men. 2. When you engage in actual fighting, if victory is long in coming, then men`s weapons will grow dull and their ardor will be damped. If you lay siege to a town, you will exhaust your strength. 3. Again, if the campaign is protracted, the resources of the State will not be equal to the strain. 4. Now, when your weapons are dulled, your ardor damped, your strength exhausted and your treasure spent, other chieftains will spring up to take advantage of your extremity. Then no man, however wise, will be able to avert the consequences that must ensue. 5. Thus, though we have heard of stupid haste in war, cleverness has never been seen associated with long delays. 6. There is no instance of a country having benefited from prolonged warfare. 7. It is only one who is thoroughly acquainted with the evils of war that can thoroughly understand the profitable way of carrying it on. 8. The skillful soldier does not raise a second levy, neither are his supply-wagons loaded more than twice. 9. Bring war material with you from home, but forage on the enemy. Thus the army will have food enough for its needs. 10. Poverty of the State exchequer causes an army to be maintained by contributions from a distance. Contributing to maintain an army at a distance causes the people to be impoverished. 11. On the other hand, the proximity of an army causes prices to go up; and high prices cause the people`s substance to be drained away. 12. When their substance is drained away, the peasantry will be afflicted by heavy exactions. 13,14. With this loss of substance and exhaustion of strength, the homes of the people will be stripped bare, and three-tenths of their income will be dissipated; while government expenses for broken chariots, worn-out horses, breast-plates and helmets, bows and arrows, spears and shields, protective mantles, draught-oxen and heavy wagons, will amount to four-tenths of its total revenue. 15. Hence a wise general makes a point of foraging on the enemy. One cartload of the enemy`s provisions is equivalent to twenty of one`s own, and likewise a single picul of his provender is equivalent to twenty from one`s own store. 16. Now in order to kill the enemy, our men must be roused to anger; that there may be advantage from defeating the enemy, they must have their rewards. 17. Therefore in chariot fighting, when ten or more chariots have been taken, those should be rewarded who took the first. Our own flags should be substituted for those of the enemy, and the chariots mingled and used in conjunction with ours. The captured soldiers should be kindly treated and kept. 18. This is called, using the conquered foe to augment one`s own strength. 19. In war, then, let your great object be victory, not lengthy campaigns. 20. Thus it may be known that the leader of armies is the arbiter of the people`s fate, the man on whom it depends whether the nation shall be in peace or in peril.

If they can't be proved - they can't be disproved... How can you conclude with SURETY there are alternate explanations when we aren't finished with this explanation... Nothing I said is speculative within the context of the 1959 Cold War... Recreating a trip with a paper trail and some well placed witness stories has been done in this case... there's no arguing that. Mervyn, when the same circumstances involving the same people is played out over and over within the CIA world of covert operation, the universe from which to make conclusions narrows... These other ALTERNATIVES of which you speak cannot exist without the context of what happens during this trip and how his completely distancing himself from anything ASC... or Univ of Turni... IT. WAS. A. RUSE. Yet this doe not negate the desire to have you find out what happened between La Havre and England... and from Heathrow to Helsinki... if you can... all I can say with surety to you is that following the assumption that Oswald had actual interest in ASC will lead you in circles... Not sure it you haven't read this from Vincent Salndria from the weekend of the assassination, but it's worth repeating... The bigger picture here supersedes the red herring micro details with which we are playing... as badly as we'd like to follow these leads, we find them generating more questions than answering them... If you're looking for rational explanations for spy craft behavior... aint gonna happen "I'm afraid we were misled," Salandria said sadly. "All the critics, myself included, were misled very early. I see that now. We spent too much time and effort micro-analyzing the details of the assassination when all the time it was obvious, it was blatantly obvious that it was a conspiracy. Don't you think that the men who killed Kennedy had the means to do it in the most sophisticated and subtle way? They chose not to. Instead, they picked the shooting gallery that was Dealey Plaza and did it in the most barbarous and openly arrogant manner. The cover story was transparent and designed not to hold, to fall apart at the slightest scrutiny. The forces that killed Kennedy wanted the message clear: 'We are in control and no one -- not the President, nor Congress, nor any elected official -- no one can do anything about it.' It was a message to the people that their government was powerless. And the people eventually got the message. Consider what has happened since the Kennedy assassination. People see government today as unresponsive to their needs, yet the budget and power of the military and intelligence establishment have increased tremendously. "The tyranny of power is here. Current events tell us that those who killed Kennedy can only perpetuate their power by* promoting social upheaval both at home and abroad. And that will lead not to revolution but to repression. I suggest to you, my friend, that the interests of those who killed Kennedy now transcend national boundaries and national priorities. No doubt we are dealing now with an international conspiracy. We must face that fact -- and not waste any more time micro-analyzing the evidence. That's exactly what they want us to do. They have kept us busy for so long. And I will bet, buddy, that is what will happen to you. They'll keep you very, very busy and, eventually, they'll wear you down."

There are quite a few files that mention GIBSON in the "Title" column of the index... I had posted the links but lost it... and when I filter, I don't get all 50,000 rows included for some reason... But it's easy to find

Having done some work on Mexico... I'd think I would know what you're talking about.... Can you please send me an image or link to what you're referring to here? Thanks Cory I found examples of a CONSULAR ID Card... https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/consular-id-cards-mexico-and-beyond

Kind of... but only due to the fact we cannot come to conclusions and attribute them to the movements of our man Oswald... Oswald was not going to Sweden, Switzerland, Finland or anywhere else for that matter... he had one destination and one job to do... No doubt that spy craft continued in every nook and cranny of the Cold War landscape... the 50's and 60's were the CIA's expansion heyday... they grew, got into MANY illegal activities to fund covert ops, and ran roughshod over the planet... Vietnam being the culmination of this arrogance... they wanted to run countries and knew they could... I see little mystery in the concepts within Oswald's journey.... I see mystery in the details...

Depends I guess on who had access to the docs... could be at the time, could be a researcher after the fact... Looks like a copy of a copy anyway...

My understanding was that the FPCC was an FBI infiltrated and directed thing... in the US... CIA is supposed to keep their hands off domestic stuff... https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/docid-32389829.pdf This is Whitten asking whether to speak with FBI about Oswald and GIDSON since both were FPCC... So this is the CIA not using his crypt and not sanitizing his name from the doc... that seems strange... In the [ ] from the newly un-redacted version is INANITION (?)

From that site I linked to.... "Deluxe class"? He was met in the hotel lobby by Rimma Semenova Shirakova, age twenty-two, a graduate in English and Arabic from the Moscow Foreign Languages Institute and an Intourist guide. She was assigned to him as his personal guide, a privilege of Deluxe class tourists.

Do you suppose that if the CIA chose a different "cover story" you'd be singing the song the same way but with slightly different details... From what you see Jason, was all of the travel "legal"? When we don't know about the reality of the travel from the available evidence. If you read any of my Mexico work you'd see the same patterns.... "Reliable sources" and a dim paper trail.... Real witnesses telling canned stories.... And an FBI asset providing the needed travel evidence.... The CIA is known for finding a thing that works and using it to death.... All I'm saying is you are applying a rational, overt explanation to purposefully irrational (from the outside looking in), covert activity. Any number of excuses could have been created to allow Oswald to travel.... They chose this one this time.... Webster used a different route and process as did the other dozen names on that defectors list... You see that, right?