Vince Palamara

4 hours ago, Steven Kossor said:

Someone tampered with the Wikipedia entry about David that I edited with the consent of his next-of-kin a few days after his death, so I restored the edited content just now.  David and I conferred very often, nightly for many years, between 2012 and 2022 about his research, evolving perceptions and analyses of data that newly came to his attention, and he modified several of the statements made in the 2013 interview that was published here recently.  David agreed when I suggested that he was functioning "like a colloquium of one" throughout much of his research career.  As many others have documented, he was quite reluctant to share the full details about his ideas with others, released dribs and drabs of his observations and insights at irregular intervals, and didn't share "everything with everybody," but this is not unusual in the life of a writer and researcher, especially one with the depth and breadth of experience that David Lifton had.  I will assist his estate to the extent I can to collect David's thoughts and writings that reflect the state of his understanding of the JFKA as of November of 2022 but I can't offer any more than that.  I will not release dribs and drabs of his material and invite scavenging, and hope that the Education Forum takes a breath and waits for his estate to release a definitive collection of his work.  Although there is some historical value in documenting the evolution of David's thinking over time, it's not worthwhile to critique stale pieces of analysis that he left scattered about in the time after Best Evidence was published more than forty years ago.  David deserves to be credited for all of the facts he documented so scrupulously in Best Evidence; as many reviewers have said, he unequivocally documented the facts about "what happened."  He admittedly made some mis-steps over the years in his analysis of those facts because so many pieces were concealed.  To his credit, he continued to the end of his life to seek after missing pieces, conscientiously avoiding the "confirmation bias" that has stymied so many researchers.  David tried to the best of his ability to integrate new pieces of information into a coherent account of "what was supposed to have happened" and I believe that history will conclude that he helped significantly to create a sensible explanation for the diabolical mechanics of the JFKA.  I won't edit David's Wikipedia entry again unless his estate asks me to do so.  I will remember David fondly and wish Happy Holidays and a healthy, safe New Year and beyond to everyone who encountered him or his ideas over the years.

Thank you!

3 hours ago, Gerry Down said:

I'm currently doing a study on the spacing of the shots as heard by the eyewitness. I want to plot a chart of witnesses who said the shots were evenly spaced versus those you said there was a longer pause between shots one and two than between shots two and three which were described as being right on top of each other, so fast it would have been impossible to operate a bolt action to fire shots two and three so close together. 

Does anyone know where such a study has already been done so I can examine their data rather than doing it all from scratch myself?

13 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

BTW / FWIW:

The Wikipedia Watch:

As of now (2:00 AM EST on Dec. 11), five days after Steven Kossor announced David Lifton's death at this forum, DSL's Wiki page is still saying that David is still with us.

Obviously, the people at Wikipedia who have to "confirm" everything that is added to every Wiki page, cannot confirm Mr. Lifton's passing beyond just the word of Steven Kossor (who is the one who edited DSL's Wiki page on Dec. 8, only to have Wiki override Kossor's death notice just one day later, on December 9.

I wonder why Wiki can't confirm (in a period of three days now) Kossor's changes to DSL's Wiki page? Seems very odd to me.

Question for Steven Kossor:

Have you tried to re-edit David's Wiki page a second time yet, to add back in the things you already added on Dec. 8th? And have you had any contact with the Wiki people who decided to override your original edits one day after you created them?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Lifton

 

This makes me paranoid that David is still alive (!). It is strange that there is no obituary anywhere to be found. Anyone noteworthy enough to have his own Wikipedia-and a massive best-selling book that was published/printed many times-would receive an obituary and probably one that was serialized in major newspapers online. Lifton was a consultant to Executive Action and Stone's JFK, as well as appearing on many television programs.

2 hours ago, Jamey Flanagan said:

Maybe it's best for his legacy if the book doesn't come out. 

I am starting to think you are correct. A lot of people on Facebook are acting like it is the Holy Grail. Perhaps it will end up the Holy Fail (ouch). Seriously, though- if it comes out, fine- I will take a look. If it doesn't, so be it at this point.

1 minute ago, Pat Speer said:

To be clear, as one who spoke to Lifton on occasion, sometimes for as much as an hour, he was quite lucid when discussing the history of the case, and his own investigation of the case. He jumped the shark, however, whenever he started musing on what "really" happened. He could conjure up something--like Ready's fight with Connally--which no one witnessed--and act as though it made perfect sense. 

His latter-day musings reminds one of his paper mache trees and bunkers on the knoll stuff from the 1960's.

1 minute ago, Vince Palamara said:

Wow; just wow. There is zero evidence that Ready was ever in the limo and his report debunks the notion.

Ready's report: sa-ready.html (jfk-assassination.net)

Just now, David Von Pein said:

No, Lifton thinks (thought) that John Ready (SS Agent) "threw himself into the President's car " (per a witness who talked to Lifton at some point).

And then---get this---Ready is the one who shot John Connally!! I mentioned this yesterday in another thread, but I guess nobody cared to respond. So I'll replay my post here:

 

A brief recap of this 14-part video series featuring David S. Lifton, which was recorded in November of 2013:

Here's a partial list of some of the preposterous things that Mr. Lifton believed happened on November 22, 1963:

1.) A Secret Service agent was, indeed, killed on 11/22/63. And the body of this dead SS agent was then placed on board Air Force One at Love Field in Dallas. And apparently nobody noticed this occurring at all.

2.) All of the films taken in Dealey Plaza on November 22 were altered/faked (e.g., the Zapruder Film, the Nix Film, the Muchmore Film, etc.). A direct quote from David Lifton in 2013: "All the films have been altered."

3.) Prior to departing Dallas, JFK's body was evidently (per Lifton) placed on some sort of "ledge" in the cargo area of Air Force One, and then, sometime during the flight, his body fell from this ledge, resulting in a situation where one of JFK's arms was left dangling toward the floor of the cargo hold. And as a result of this, at the start of the autopsy at Bethesda, Kennedy's arm (due to the onset of rigor mortis) was sticking up, stiff as a board, and could not be lowered until Dr. Humes actually got up on the autopsy table (per Lifton's account) and forced the stiffened arm down by JFK's side.

4.) To avoid the prying eyes of the media, Air Force One made an unscheduled stop near the end of the runway after landing at Andrews Air Force Base. This was done so that JFK's corpse could be secretly taken out of the airplane's cargo hold and transferred to a helicopter.

5.) Secret Service agent John Ready "threw himself" into the Presidential limousine after the shooting, and (according to Mr. Lifton) it is Ready's foot we see sticking out of the back seat of the car in the David Miller photograph.

For this theory of Lifton's to be correct, it would mean that John Ready lied in this report.

6.) Quoting David Lifton in 2013: "He [John Connally] got shot as a result of this fight in the car [with Secret Service agent John Ready]."

I think it's now time for one of these:

WTF?!

So now we know how David Lifton managed to keep John Connally from sustaining any wounds from the rear during the period when the assassination of JFK was taking place on Elm Street. He (Lifton) merely invented this fantasy story about Secret Service agent John Ready leaping into the limousine and shooting Connally. And then John Connally, in all of his many post-1963 interviews, decided to never once mention this "fight" that he had with Ready.

Oh, brother.

7.) Lifton, as of 2013, apparently believed that President Kennedy's wounds were altered (with lightning-like speed evidently) while JFK was still aboard Air Force One at Love Field in Dallas.

I had always thought Lifton believed that the body-altering surgery was performed at Walter Reed Hospital. But I guess David decided to change the location of that part of his fanciful tale. ~shrug~

8.) Lee Harvey Oswald did, indeed, fire a rifle from the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building on November 22nd....but David Lifton thinks it was merely a "mock attack" and Lee was only firing "blanks".

Well, have you had enough of this fantasy stuff for today?

Yeah, me too.
 

 

 

 

Dave- I am stunned that Lifton espoused most of these things!

Just now, Pat Speer said:

One of the problems with David's earlier theories was that he failed to account for Connally's back wound. This was discussed on this forum. The "Godzilla" theory, as I understand it, was in part David's explanation for Connally's back wound. As I understand it, he suspected Connally was accidentally wounded by Ready, after Ready jumped into the car. 

This is what I've been talking about. David's latter-day theories solved one problem while creating a whole slew of others. 

Wow; just wow. There is zero evidence that Ready was ever in the limo and his report debunks the notion.

1 minute ago, Jean Paul Ceulemans said:

It doesn't at first sight, but hiding it wouldn't do it any good either.

On the contrary, someday someone could dig it up to really use it against him (and some of his good work).  Now we can say, this was never hidden and no secret at al (in the end, this is always better).

So, as long as it comes with a correct intro, I see no harm.

It won't change the way sensible people think of him.

David sounds as eloquent and intelligent as ever on this video series. Ultimately, he will be judged on Best Evidence. Since I highly doubt there would be a big publisher and media blitz for his posthumously published follow up book, there will be little damage to his reputation from some of these way-out ideas.

Just now, James DiEugenio said:

Vince, he is saying there were four people in the back seat of the car?

That would mean a radical alteration of the Z film then, right?

Yes. I am stunned (again, in a bad way) that Lifton believed this.

Just now, James DiEugenio said:

What about the leg sticking out of the limo on the way to Parkland?

Did he not have some off the wall idea that it was not Clint Hill's or Kennedy's?

He talked about this at some college in the Dakotas where he gave a speech at.

He believes it was AGENT JOHN READY--?!?!?! Like I said: I am watching this video now and I am baffled by these ideas David was espousing. Like I said above, when I discovered that David uploaded a 14-part series just in late October 2022 and the videos had very few watches and almost no comments, I thought I would stitch them all together in one place (the number of likes and comments exceeds all 14 individual parts combined on Lifton's newly-minted You Tube channel). However, in my zeal to get these out to the wider public, I didn't have the chance to watch them (the whole video). This is actually shocking (in a bad way) all these zany notions that Lifton believed.

1:06:45 mark on the video---JFK's arm dropped off the ledge of Air Force One which is why Kennedy's arm was raised outward when on his back. Humes had to get up on top of JFK's body to force it down.

2 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

What was the "Godzilla" theory he expressed in the videos? Because the "Godzilla" theory he expressed to others was a doozy, and really damaging to his reputation. 

1:03:00 mark----Richard Lipsey tells Lifton in 1998 that JFK's arm was raised and it looked like Kennedy was doing a "Heil Hitler" gesture (!)

Just now, Pat Speer said:

What was the "Godzilla" theory he expressed in the videos? Because the "Godzilla" theory he expressed to others was a doozy, and really damaging to his reputation. 

I am an hour into the three-hour video. He mentions it matter-of-factly early on but, so far, hasn't returned to it yet (he just mentions it without detail in the early part of the video).

58:00 mark---RFK KNEW the casket was empty: Robert McNamara tells him "your brother is in luggage."

I confess that I stitched the 14-part series together without watching it first. I don't think it does David's legacy well at all.

53:30 mark: ROBERT MCNAMARA personally supervised the removal of Kennedy's corpse (!)

5 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

Ok. I'll go second. While I have not watched the videos, I am told that within them David proposed the involvement of a number of Parkland doctors in the plot. This is one of the things he told me. I remember that I said something about perhaps they were forced to lie after the killing, but he laid out a scenario in which they had foreknowledge. I remember thinking that this was never gonna float. 

 

51:30 mark: lights went out at Andrews Air Force Base, as there was a stop involving Air Force One. An end-of-the-runway stop of a sinister nature.

1 minute ago, Pat Speer said:

Ok. I'll go first. While I have not watched the videos, I am told that within them David proposed the involvement of a number of Parkland doctors in the plot. This is one of the things he told me. I remember that I said something about perhaps they were forced to lie after the killing, but he laid out a scenario in which they had foreknowledge. I remember thinking that this was never gonna float. 

 

Yes- David states this as a fact! He also mentions-get this now- his "Godzilla theory"-!! David was so eloquent (as he is on the video), but I am stunned that he believed this.

3 minutes ago, Vince Palamara said:

The 14-part series all in one place in order: 

 

47:00 mark: tomato-based vegetable soup covering for blood on Air Force One.

my reply to Pat on the other thread (starting a new thread per Pat's idea because this is perhaps more appropriate here):

"I have to be honest- while I have tremendous respect for David Lifton and Best Evidence, a fair amount of these ideas and notions on the above video (series) are-I will be kind-not believable. Perhaps David lost the plot a little by being obsessed with the case and not having a personal life (the same can be said for Harry Livingstone). When one doesn't have a family and just lives and breathes this case 24/7 for decades, I believe you start to see conspiracies in your soup and things become less grounded. The notion that some of the Parkland doctors were involved is just...well, I won't say.

Again- tremendous loss that David passed away; Best Evidence is legendary; I am hoping his second book sees the light of day...but these later-day ideas he was espousing are bizarre. There- I said it."

@Pat Speer I started a different thread re: David Lifton's latter-day claims. Great idea!

The 14-part series all in one place in order: 

@Pat Speer You wrote on a seperate thread:

"I think maybe we should start a separate thread in which we can discuss some of Lifton's latter-day claims. I haven't watched the videos, but I've been told that within them he floats some of the theories to which he'd sworn me to silence. I think perhaps he knew that if he published these theories or presented them on the forum, I would have been among those expressing great doubt about them. It's a bit perplexing."

Agreed.

1 minute ago, Pat Speer said:

I think maybe we should start a separate thread in which we can discuss some of Lifton's latter-day claims. I haven't watched the videos, but I've been told that within them he floats some of the theories to which he'd sworn me to silence. I think perhaps he knew that if he published these theories or presented them on the forum, I would have been among those expressing great doubt about them. It's a bit perplexing. 

I have to be honest- while I have tremendous respect for David Lifton and Best Evidence, a fair amount of these ideas and notions on the above video (series) are-I will be kind-not believable. Perhaps David lost the plot a little by being obsessed with the case and not having a personal life (the same can be said for Harry Livingstone). When one doesn't have a family and just lives and breathes this case 24/7 for decades, I believe you start to see conspiracies in your soup and things become less grounded. The notion that some of the Parkland doctors were involved is just...well, I won't say.

Again- tremendous loss that David passed away; Best Evidence is legendary; I am hoping his second book sees the light of day...but these later-day ideas he was espousing are bizarre. There- I said it.

16 minutes ago, Vince Palamara said:

Here is all 14 in order in one place:

 

Also: at the 13:30 mark, David states that he is diabetic.