Joe Bauer

Watched the second episode of GASLIT last night. Not sure what to say. Story line jumping kind of distracting. Big ugly John Mitchell and Martha cuddling and french kissing on the dramatically beautiful Southern California sea view bluff one second, and the Watergate burglary team running around bungling their break in attempt with doors locks that wouldn't open, batteries left behind and a first night duty security guard noticing sloppily applied flaps of tape protruding from the same locked basement stairwell door jam ( twice ) which immediately inspired the security guard to call the DC police...which resulted in an embarrassing hide and seek "come out, come out where ever you are"...then "GOTCH YA" scene in the darkened DNC office rooms minutes later? Well, at least we get to see Martha Mitchell very roughly kidnapped and injected with sedation drugs against her will next week.

Sandy. These 1964 WC statements by Ruth Paine you quote expressing her softened and even more favorable feelings toward Lee Oswald during the times he would visit while Ruth had Marina and child under her roof seem quite hollow to me after hearing her say the things she said about Lee Oswald and her feelings toward him 22 years later in the "Trial Of Lee Harvey Oswald." In this and under oath...she flat out stated to Lee's defending attorney Gerry Spence ..."No, I didn't like him ( Oswald ) very well." No caveats. Not one word regards the more favorable things you say she said about Lee in her WC testimony. She was allowed to share more of her feelings and remembrances about Lee and she chose to go into the story of Lee using her typewriter without her knowledge and permission and how offended she was that he did this. She also went into detail in expressing how upset she was when Lee started calling her at her home after he was arrested on 11,22,1963 and asking for her help in securing an attorney and also to talk to Marina ( who wasn't home ) and how "unattached" Lee seemed to be "about it all." No sympathetic take on Lee by Ruth at all in this remembrance. Ruth even mentioned Lee being irritated that Marina wasn't home and Gerry Spence had to present the rationality of Lee's mental state to Ruth by saying..."don't you think that someone in Lee's circumstances, being arrested for murder and being beaten by the police...might be a little short and upset sounding as Lee was when he called your home and couldn't get in touch with his wife?" Ruth just sat there and after a long pause "kind of" agreed with Spence. If Ruth Paine sincerely meant all the favorable things she stated about Lee Oswald to the WC back in 1964...she sure didn't express those 22 years later in her sworn oath testimony to this court and jury.

Self deletion.

Marina was a special and interesting young woman to Ruth. Ruth wanted to learn the Russian language and had studied it years before she met Marina. Here Ruth had the opportunity to have someone directly in her life who spoke perfect Russian. Marina was vulnerable and needed major help in so many ways. Ruth offered this help and probably felt it would be a doubly good thing to have Marina and child move in with her not just to help them but for the conversational Russian. And Ruth was lonely herself as well. Marina being a ravishing radiating blue-eyed young beauty also probably made it a bit more attractive situation for Ruth versus taking in some other Russian speaking woman who looked like a typical cold war era US propaganda picture of a huge boned, thick ankles and forearms with weather beatened face and wearing a farm dirt covered babushka and pulling a plow. I understand Ruth was extremely hurt when Marina left her home just days after 11,22,1963 and completely cut her out of her new life. Hence, it was obvious Ruth Paine had developed feelings of affection for Marina during their time together. If I may, you know what made the entire Lee Oswald story (including the Ruth Paine part) 10X more interesting leading up to the JFK event and after? Marina Prusakova. The first nationally televised interview I ever saw of Marina weeks after the JFK event was the "Marina, what do you do all day?" one? Honestly, I was so smitten I was mesmerized. There was something so ..." intriguingly attractive ?" about her. Her natural beauty, her innocence and vulnerability. Her eyes were wide, feminine and intelligent. She also looked like someone who was keeping some very deep thoughts, feelings and secrets inside. Very careful and reticent about every word she spoke. I was just a young adolescent...but I instantly ached for this beautiful young Russian woman. I think Ruth Paine saw these same qualities in Marina. Marina had become an attractive overnight celebrity ( albeit a dark and tragic story one ) after that interview. Yes, it was all under dark and tragic circumstances but that first nationally broadcast interview of her still captured millions of Americans like it did me. Even lothario Norman Mailer gushed over her after he met her in person. He said on a national TV talk show..." her eyes shone like diamonds." Yes, beautiful young Marina Prusakova made the whole Oswald and even Ruth Paine story something much bigger, more attractive and much more interesting and intriguing than they would have been had Oswald returned from Russia with a bride who looked like say ... Ruth Buzzi?

Ruth Paine hated Lee Harvey Oswald. When asked by the famous attorney Gerry Spence "Mrs. Paine, you didn't like Lee Oswald very well, isn't that right?" She responded (under oath) "No, I did not like him very well." Lee was very hard to like by most people he encountered and interacted with for many well documented reasons. Buell Frazier was an exception. He didn't mind Lee's almost extreme anti-social lack of verbal engagement. He simply described Lee as "a quiet feller." and "He liked chilren and they liked him." Even so, my guess is that penny pinching Lee never once offered even a nickel to Frazier to help with gas costs despite Frazier so often taking him back to Ruth Paine's home after work? Yet, big hearted Buell never once complained or said this bothered him. In public anyway. Getting back to RP and her dislike of Lee, I sense that it was so deep that she eventually despised him. I think she may have even seen Oswald's arrest as a big relief for Marina in finally being rid of him. Despite her immense dislike of Lee, Ruth Paine still helped Lee personally from time to time. Letting him drive her car to maybe help him get a driver's license? She helped find him employment. She let him visit and even spend the night in her home while visiting Marina and Junie. And, I've never once read that she ever dinged Lee to reimburse her "something" in regards to the expenses she took on in housing, feeding and in other ways caring for his wife and child, and even himself. Maybe some of this tolerance of Lee was born out of her Quaker moral teaching mindset? Yet, what struck me about Ruth's "true" deep despising feelings toward Lee back in 1963 though was how palpable Ruth Paine's dislike for Lee was publicly expressed even so many years later. She didn't hold back in her court room testimony during the "Trial Of Lee Harvey Oswald" when asked by Gerry Spence how much she felt this toward Lee back in those days when she was involved with Marina and Lee. At one point in her testimony during this "Trial Of Lee Harvey Oswald" she really lost it in saying how offended she was with Lee Oswald using her personal typewriter without her knowledge or permission! "that offended me very much!" The gall! The absolute GALL! Her facial expression while saying this as freshly angered and agitated as if it happened a week before! Ruth held that particular incident resentment toward Lee for decades. Probably still seethes about it even 59 years later! My point is ( I guess ) is that Ruth Paine had to really fight and push herself to do anything for Lee's personal benefit while he was alive. If it wasn't for her wanting to bring Marina into her life she would have did her best to keep that boorish, wife beating low life Lee Oswald as far away from her as possible. When it came to all the post 11/22/1963 agencies asking her about Lee and anything that may have incriminated him or not, one would assume she wasn't his biggest defender. Same with her husband Michael.

One of my posts was recently "disappeared" also. I trust whatever moderator did this, did so for a rational "best for the forum" reason. I'm not even going to ask why. The forum has been run so well the last few years I just trust our moderators judgments in these matters. I can live with a few of my postings being deleted. Heck, sometimes even I look back and wonder how I could have posted certain thread response commentaries that upon later reflection make me say "ouch." Many times I have gone back and deleted the worst ones myself!

Exactly WN.

How can anyone still "not" believe Bolden's detailed story of the Chicago plot? If these people do not believe Bolden's Chicago plot story, what explanation do they have or even speculate as to why he made this story up? And has steadfastly maintained ( with no detail changes at all ) for the last 59 years? Do they think that the witnesses in Bolden's trial ( even if just one main one ) who confessed to lying about Bolden's guilt, did not exist? That their confessions didn't exist? It sounds to me like one of the most personally dedicated and committed JFK protective SS agents in the WH detail was Abraham Bolden. It would make sense. Here is a black man who understood that JFK did something so incredibly unpopular, politically and socially incorrect and even personally risky in giving him ( a black American ) an opportunity of a lifetime at a time when there was just naked hate against blacks and resistance against doing things like this in the highest ranks of police/security organizations like his very own SS. Of course Bolden was at times treated badly by others in that detail. Of course he was at times called the worst names right to his face. From what Vince Palamara has told us, the all white SS was generally as black hating as most other police organizations were back then. A "Good Ole Boy" mentality with at least some of the members for sure. Of course they resented JFK's order placing Bolden in their midst. Some maybe even hating JFK for doing so. I believe Bolden felt the deepest and maybe even over protective sense of duty to protect and watch out for the greatest and most courageous black American defending white man he probably ever came across in his life and who did something for him personally that he equated as heroic. That he owed JFK his protective duty devotion to a blindly loyal 120% degree level including personally maintaining the highest duty standards physically, mentally and socially 24 hours a day. I could also understand someone like Bolden (with a totally naive outsider mind set) probably imagining that the closest Presidential security would be made up of the most personal character straight arrow men who were exactly also of this highest standard duty mind set. It was probably a shock to Bolden to see any number of agents being as lax as he has described. We know for a fact that several JFK motorcade duty agents did go the topless Dallas club ( the Cellar?) the very night before their highest importance duty call the very next morning. Staying up late, some drinking. Considering what happened the very next day at 12:30 PM in Dealey plaza...and the only JFK protection SS agent ( Clint Hill ) acting even remotely quickly in running to JFK's limo after two loud shot sounds were already heard, you have to consider this late night irresponsible duty neglecting bar carousing of those agents with the same logical concern that Bolden expressed back then. At least imo anyway.

Did Bolden ever get any pension monies?

We will be watching the second episode as well.

What percentage of photography interested persons bought and used Minox cameras back then? Is it a camera a normal family man would want over so many other larger cameras that would be easier to use? A dinky little spy camera for what - family photos, kids, Ruth, camping? How many people in the JFK Dallas motorcade crowd took pictures of JFK passing by using a Minox? Wouldn't the ownership of such an unusually specific type and use camera beg a lot of questions? Michael Paine always begged a lot of questions imo. His family political background. His interests in other people's political views more than normal. His own attendance at political gatherings? Maybe he was taking pictures of people at these gatherings with his Minox? A camera not easily noticed or seen by others being photographed due to it's unusually small size?

Seriously? Wow, right on Jim!

Disagree about Liddy. He doesn't deserve "any" praise in my opinion. Do agree with the rest of your post. I do wonder how much more of the true McCord story we don't know.

Could there ever be a major film produced centered around Bolden? Or a TV docu series like the new "Gas Lit?" Me thinks...never. The dark side truth of our highest government forces since JFK in their decades of unbelievably unjust punishment of Bolden would be too much for the masses to consume. It would shake our already fragile trust/ mistrust of our government since JFK, even more.

We watched this first episode as well. First let me share that Sean Penn's John Mitchell transformation was so remarkably good, I had to keep reminding myself that it really was Sean Penn in that role. Best make up transformation job I can ever recall in a major film. What a contrast to the laughably stiff plaster cast mask make up job on Woody Harrelson as LBJ. Most reviews I've read have praised Julia Roberts in her Martha Mitchell portrayal. Let's admit it...Roberts truly is a great actress. Once again she tackles the tough acting job of re-enacting a real life character and doing so with such thoughtful and intelligently subtle control that you find yourself not just believing she IS that person, but finding her character even more interesting and watchable than the real life one! Shades of Robert's Erin Brockovich as a beloved icon of all time favorite female lead movie characters. Dan Steven's John Dean really hasn't grabbed me ... yet. However, Betty Gilpen's Maureen Dean ? WOW! Give me more! All I remember of "Mo" Dean back in the Watergate hearing days was her incredibly cool, collected and almost stoic expression throughout her entire husband's testimony. Along with her eye catching classy dress, hair and beautifully smooth skin. In this first series episode Gilpen's Mo Dean is shown to be much more than simply the beautiful high class Saks 5th Avenue store front window mannequin look-alike we saw during the nationally televised Watergate hearings. Surprisingly, she is instead revealed to be a women of remarkable personal character strength, confidence, intelligence, deep thought and surprisingly liberal moral convictions. And so subtly sexy no wonder John Dean lost his Nixon ambition fixation for one of her. If the script is honest, Mo Dean sounds as if she became John Dean's moral conscience mentor more than anyone knew at the time. Giving Gilpen's Maureen Dean's character role this much showcasing (in the first episode anyway) really added to the entire story line in a worthy value way imo. To be honest though, the John Dean and Mo Dean characters kind of stole some of the scenes in this first episode. A little easier to watch an attractive and interesting young couple versus an older and much less attractive couple yelling at and arguing with each other most of the time. Shea Whigham's G. Gordon Liddy is at times pretty interesting...however, in such a scarily portrayed dangerous nut case way you wonder if he actually was as extreme fanatic crazy as he is depicted. Penn's Mitchell has to be good imo as again, I am believing his character without hardly any distracted thought that it is really Sean Penn behind that gad awful ugly big nosed double chinned face of Mitchell. Penn also has that highest level in born actor talent gift of intelligent subtlety in portraying a well known real life character. Still, I am always conscious of the higher importance meaning of the Martha Mitchell story. How in her eccentric but honest values way, she helped expose that huge snake pit den of corruption of Nixon and his entire team which had highjacked our highest executive branch of government and if not caught, would have continued their total constitution and democracy violating crimes.

If so ... WOW!

Just a common sense thought contemplation here? Isn't it possible that the highest anxiety alert Dallas policemen who rushed into the theater and who were told to look for a younger aged slight build white male may have been so hyper-vigilant reactive that any white male of that age and build group ( and especially sitting alone! ) in that theater would have caused them to grab them for at least a closer look over and questioning than just leaving them sit? Whoever the Dallas PD wrangled out of the back of the theater in the alley was obviously someone who fit that general young white male slight build description. And their sitting by themselves without a date or buddy companion might have fed the Dallas police suspicion even more?

?????

The Paines (both Ruth and her estranged husband Michael) were a tough couple to get a true understanding take on. Sometimes, I feel Ruth was simply a truly well meaning Quaker humanitarian type who really just wanted to help Marina and her children through extremely financially stressed times. Coupled with the fact of Marina's Russian birth and life background which intrigued and even attracted Ruth to her. Just as Ruth Paine has so often explained in interview after interview over decades. Her first meeting Marina and Lee may honestly have been innocently happenstance. Ruth was always interested in the Russian language and people and had been active in a moral mission to try to do "something" in her small way to improve the heightened tensions between our two countries. She knew some of the White Russians in the Dallas area due to her making contact with them in her Russian language learning efforts. Interesting to me that these two couples ( Paines and the DeMohrenschildts ) who are often suspected of being intelligence connected with nefarious agendas regarding the Oswalds, seemed to be the only persons in Lee and Marinas world who did more to help them through their poverty stressed struggles than anyone by far. What Ruth did for Marina and her two children was truly extraordinary when you consider her housing, feeding, driving, moving, medical help securing, and everything else...over a period of months! If Ruth was a spy, she sure was a super kind and generous one for Marina when Marina really needed help on that level. The DeMohrenschildt's also did a lot for Marina and Lee. Even today, very few " non-family" people reach out and directly help young couples who are as stressed as Marina and Lee were financially on the level that Ruth and The DeM's did. I always contemplated that if Lee was on some intelligence agency payroll, or even a paid FBI informant, his compensation must have been so low it couldn't keep them in even rundown apartments for more than a few months at a time. I could see such a person wanting to keep a low profile with maybe even a cover of poverty to keep up the ruse...but not to the degree of the Oswald's. Cock roach filled apartment in New Orleans. Having to use an open suitcase as a crib for baby June. Letting Marina's painful tooth decay problem go untreated until Ruth Paine as well as proper pre-natal care for Marina with Ruth Paine's help. Never a car. Always having to get around by city or Greyhound bus. Dependent on others for moving, housing, clothes and food, baby items, etc? If Oswald was humiliated by having to accept so much outside help for his wife and children's basic needs, you would think he may have demanded his possible nefarious employers pay him more than the pittance amount that couldn't even pay the rent on a decent apartment? Michael Paine. The spoiled kid from a wealthy politically involved family. Intriguing family political activities all while he was growing up. If you read his father bio it is an amazing life long engagement with socialist types and groups. His interaction with Lee Oswald was one where he wanted to know Lee's political views more than any other subject. Michael Paine was quite engaged politically himself in his normal personal life. He attended at least one or two political group meetings of so-called radical groups. He liked to engage young college age people in political discussions in at least one local coffee shop where these college kids hung out? M. Paine seems more suspect in any political intrigue talk than Ruth imo. Even his job of "Model Plane designer" for a major "sensitive work" contractor Bell Helicopter corporation which needed clearance raises an eye brow...no? Just some thoughts on this intriguing couple.

I see your point regards my somewhat immature tone and take on Marina and I apologize. However, citing Marina's own words to Jeannie DeMohrenschildt the truth was that she "was" sexually unsatisfied with Lee. Didn't mean she was sexually wanton of course. Smoking was the norm for half the adult population in the US back then it seems. So, Marina liked to occasionally light up. No problem there. It didn't mean anything regards her personal character and I shouldn't have even half way inferred such if I did. I have edited out one paragraph in my last post regards Marina. Childish of me to have even postulated it's content.

Wow! Another amazing pairing!

Yes, Jeannie DeMohrenschildt did say many of the things Marina would do to insult Lee as you mentioned. "look at this idiot" Marina blurted out when she and Jeannie saw Lee's rifle in the closet. She openly stated that Lee didn't satisfy her sexually. He would too often rather read a book than have sex. Jeannie thought Marina sharing this very personal and private personal relationship problem between her and Lee with others was abhorrent. Lee didn't allow Marina to smoke but after Jeanny DeM gave him a blunt European mother tongue lashing he relented somewhat. Marina simply was not attracted to Lee and his mannerisms, his interests, his low sex drive anymore. And after seeing these fairly well off White Russians, Lee seemed like a loser to her financially I would think. I think both Lee and Marina were abusive toward each other. Both very frustrated with each other. Although I think Lee still loved her in the end. And always much more than she loved him. And he was always physically attracted to this sparkling blue eyed beauty. When you read a little more of Marina's personal make up through the testimony of many who knew her 1 on 1 she comes off as a surprisingly aggressive young woman ( a proper mores defying cigarette smoking one at that) and more status craving than what Lee could ever provide. And a woman who's sexual needs and cravings were way beyond anything poor Lee could meet and satisfy. Nonetheless, Lee and Marina were history by 11,22,1963 and Lee knew it. 5:03 George and Jeanne de Mohrenschildt - Lee Harvey Oswalds Russian friends in Fort Worth, TX.

Why didn't the Paines try to help Oswald get a lawyer? Well, first off, they both disliked Lee Oswald. Ruth to a despising degree. Michael in his spoiled wealthy upbringing and intellectually arrogant way to a disdainful even pity feeling degree. Why should they help this boorish, self-centered, uneducated, Marina mistreating and unappreciative miscreant? If they believed he may have killed a president they liked and admired, I could see them feeling ... good riddance! Yet, with Ruth's Christian/Quaker moral imbuing she at least gave some thought to Lee ( husband of Marina and father to two young infants ) needing "some" legal help. And knowing of his poverty of course she thought of court appointed help in this regards. I could see her mentioning this type of assistance to Lee.

Denny, true. I guess the most important question is when did this "we both know who's responsible" Ruth/Michael phone call conversation take place? If it did before there was any mention of the Texas School Book Depository in the news, then one can reasonably assume that both Ruth and Michael didn't even think of Oswald as a suspect at that point. Hence, the sharing of the general and widespread knowledge that Dallas was known as a center of the most extreme JFK hatred minded groups and individuals hence a logical suspicion of someone of that ilk being responsible. If this alleged shared comment came "after" Ruth and Michael knew of Oswald's arrest and his being named a prime suspect, then obviously you have some dark and damning implications on their part.

It sounds like Ruth Paine never clearly denied the "we both know who was responsible" part of her telephone conversation with Michael. Where Ruth is rock hard sure about so many aspects of her words, actions and thoughts in her recounting of her whole Marina and Lee experience, she seems to equivocate somewhat when asked about the exact content of her conversation with husband Michael that day. Didn't she infer that if she and Michael did say anything like that, that they would have been referring to the rabid JFK hating types in Dallas ( that spat upon Adlai Stevenson ) and the far right extremists wealth groups such as the JBS and Minute Men who everybody knew also hated JFK to a treasonous minded degree? Not an illogical or suspiciously unusual train of thought imo. Heck, millions like me just assumed Dallas was full of JFK hating extremists and segregationists. That it made sense that JFK was killed in a JFK hating city like Dallas.