Ron Bulman

Steven, thank you for your deep and thoughtful post. I too believe JFK died instantly, thankfully, from the head shot(s) in Dealy Plaza. He did not suffer, from them. I take heart from this, and reportedly the last words he ever heard, from Nellie Connally were Mr. President, you can't say Dallas doesn't love you. To which he replied yes this is true, after the ride down Main street and the turn onto Houston. I also wonder if maybe he did suffer, or maybe just confusion or shock, for a very few seconds after the throat shot, before the head shot.

This is a rather vain attempt to give the illusion this thread is still on topic. Most of the posts are about Russiagate and Manafort. Keven Hofeling Members 303 Gender:Male Location:Salt Lake City, Utah. United States. Interests:Political Science, including the Assassination of President John F. Kennedy. Posted March 17 · IP No, the topic of this thread is Donald Trump and his failure to release the JFK records. The information presented about his Syria policies concerns the potential context of his decision not to do so, and also notes the parallels between the establishment reactions to Trump's Syria policy and JFK's Vietnam policy. Quote Keven Hofeling Members 303 Gender:Male Location:Salt Lake City, Utah. United States. Interests:Political Science, including the Assassination of President John F. Kennedy. Posted March 17 · IP No, focuses on 1963 and 2017, and the policies of JFK and Trump to end the CIA wars in Vietnam and Syria. W Niederhut advocated for the need for this thread to contest disinformation for the public benefit. It seems it's become a Trump, less the JFK files thread. In an election year especially I'm not sure the Education Forum JFK Assassination Debate should go there either way, at all. I have my own opinions, as we all do, but is this the place to do so at this time? If the 56 Years thread because of similar circumstances had to go to Political Discussions, it may be time for this one to as well. I'll discuss it with Mark and Sandy, meanwhile public comments are welcome.

Hold on a minute Vince. When I watched this the 1st time I thought, this had to be on Friday evening the 22nd, before they really got to Perry. Didn't someone come up after the press conference that afternoon, shortly after JFK had passed and tell him not to mention the throat wound as one of entrance (as he had done 3x)? If we actually read C.E. 2051 which Denis provided it clearly states the UPI team, including Sisco arrived on the evening of 11/22/63. It is the December 1st FBI interview of Oliver Oakes, UPI sound engineer. He was in and out of the DPD HQ that evening. It ends with the only thing Oakes filmed that weekend was of Nellie Connally's press conference on John's status, done at the same time Oswald was shot. I think this gives pause for consideration that Sisco could have possibly done the Perry interview the evening of 1/22/63. "He is employed by United Press International (UPI), Hews Films as a sound engineer . lie, PAUL SISCO and ISADORE BLECKMAN, as a UPI team, went to Dallas Friday, November 22, 1963, via plane, arriving Dallas in the evening of that day . On November 22 and 23, 1963, he entered and left the Dallas police department building several times and on occasion had his press pass inspected by uniformed policemen but added, "they got to know us ." Initials "UPI" are on all news gear carried by OAKES and he sometimes entered the building without showing press card with police officers assuming he was a new . . ." "The only films shot by OAKES were of Mrs . CONNALLY and this was given to SISCO which he forwarded to New York." Warren Commission, Volume XIV: CE 2051 - FBI report dated December 2, 1963, of interview of Oliver Oakes, at Morton Grove, Ill. (CD 85, pp. 463-464). (history-matters.com)

Thank you for the proper spelling of a term I didn't fully understand, I assumed such. I've hesitated to post this for a long time because the thoughts are graphic. Given Perry's statements here maybe it's time. Though it's still kind of hard to bring it up. JFK was brain dead from the second the head Shots hit him. Perry: Was he in pain? I don't think he even perceived the impact of the bullet at all. The President was dead when the bullet struck him? That is correct. Does this happen often here? Something we are faced with quite often. Perry was experienced with trauma surgery, including frequently at Parkland, gunshot wounds.

Just the first minute. This is from ABC, where has it been buried? - (Immediately) noted a lethal wound. - No heartbeat or pulse, he was attempting anginal respiration. - wounds in the neck and head, the latter massive. - mortal wound, chance of survival, none. - two distinctive wounds.

Damn Vince. Wow! Where did you find this? I'm stunned. I need to watch it again a time or two before I comment. This blows his Warren Omission testimony to hell.

Threatening another forum member, including Moderators/Administrators, will result in vacation time for the member doing so at any time, every time.

There are some interesting posts earlier in this thread, pgs. 6-7 in particular.

That letter is very interesting. I think I read something once about Father Huber mentioning a bullet hole over the left eye. Then nothing more about it. The detail gives the letter authenticity, I think. I think there were a couple of other reports of this. About it being in the edge of the hairline over the left eye. If I remember right this fits with Dr's. Mantick and Chesser's analysis of the x-rays in the National Archives. A frontal shot over the left eye, and another in the hairline in the right temple, slightly above the top of the right ear and slightly in front of it. This part to me is really interesting. At this point you described for us what you thought to have been a bullet wound over President Kennedy's left eye. * "I took the sheet down to his nose," you said, "and I saw what I immediately thought to be a bullet hole on his forehead, above his left eye. I told a number of people when I got back that this must have killed him, but that night 1 heard that the man was behind him in the building, so I knew what I had seen was a blood-clot." "No; no one has come to see me about it. No one."

In early September 1975, Elizabeth Barrett, distressed and angered about revelations concerning her father's treatment and death, filed an $8.5 million claim against the Army. Barrett was especially angry about details she learned concerning the involvement of the State of New York and the U.S. Justice Department in the cover-up of the facts surrounding the Army's tests at NYSPI. Early in Marrazzi's twenty-five page report, the doctor clearly admits that had it not been for the Army's secret experiments, . . . , Blauer would have been discharged from NYSPI and sent home. Instead, states Marrazzi, Blauer died under conditions that were not "in accord with good medical practice and free from negligence." (The understatement of the decade, if not century? RB). In July 1954, Army attorneys met with attorneys in Burger's office (Warren Burger - future Chief Justice of the Supreme Court) and decided they would ask David Marcus, the New York assistant attorney general in charge of defending the NYSPI against the Blauer's to offer Blauer's wife Amy, $15,000 to settle the case ($173,000 in 2024). The Army agreed to pay $7250 of the settlement as long as the Army's role in Blauer's death was kept secret from Blauer's family, the Blauer's attorney's, the judge hearing the case, and of course, the media. Amy Blauer refused the settlement offer for several months, but her own poor health and the needs of her daughters forced her to reconsider. After a few days of negotiations, and threats that doctors at NYSPI could reveal "very embarrassing details" of her marriage if the case went to court, Amy settled for $18,000, only because the judge in the case objected to $15,000 as an appropriate amount. (I.E., today, here's $200,000 since we killed your husband, shut up and go away). In 1987, ten years after Elizabeth Barrett filed her $8.5 million dollar suit against the United States Government, she was awarded a little over $700,000 ($1.9 million today). Defending against Barrett's claims for justice was then United States Attorney Rudolph W. Giuliani. Giuliani argued strongly that the government was not responsible for Harol Blauer's death, but the court found otherwise.

I will concede it's not impossible Hickey might have sh*t his pants and jumped up at the sound of shot's, this would have been after JFK was already hit. But there is no evidence of this, pictures, films, witnesses.

An interesting and disturbing article Matt. I've lived from what's a microwave to I couldn't afford one to how did we ever live without this. Now microwave "guns" (?) are causing brain damage. Useful knowledge. But I have to wonder how related this thread is anymore to trump releasing JFK records.

ATM, Book Four - 1975-1985, Chapter -5- August 12, 1975, Harold Blauer Redux. Pages 528-532. On August 12, 1975, following several news reports about Army-sponsored experiments similar to those of the CIA, a Pentagon spokesman disclosed that Harold Blauer, a 42- year old patient at the New York State Psychiatric Institute, had died the same year as Frank Olson, after Blauer had unwittingly ben given a massive amount of mescaline during a secret Army experiment. Like the Olsons, the Blauer family had been kept in the dark about the death for over twenty-two years. The name of the victim is being withheld while the Pentagon tries to locate surviving relatives. . . . a representative of the Army Inspector General's office had come across "a file disclosing the death while examining records discovered in a safe at Edgewood Arsenal in Maryland." Before concluding the press conference, Laitin said that the Army experiments with mescaline, LSD and other drugs had been halted only three weeks earlier, as a result of the revelations about Frank Olson, and the Army's experiments had involved altogether "about four thousand soldiers and civilians." The following day the New York Times reported that the unnamed NYSPI victim had been identified as Harold Blauer. The Army identified him after one of Blauer's two daughters, Elizabeth Barrett, had been contacted. Thirteen at the time. She recalled her mother telling her at the time that her father had "reacted badly [and] been very upset" by drugs he had been given at NYSPI. She further told Treaster (NY Times) that her father had "absolutely not" volunteered to participate in and Army drug experiment, and that he told her mother, Amy, that "he didn't like" the drugs he had been given at the Psychiatric Institute. To be continued.

"It might do wonders for that intellectual constipation you're suffering from." Take a break Keven.

Column: Justice is finally coming to some of the liars and cheats who enabled Trump (msn.com)

Great interview with Lori as devils advocate early on. Though I almost bailed over this. Pigs ears to polka dot dress. Blood stained sheets (rightfully?) destroyed? But 2000 photographs that shouldn't have been?

Yes, but what this thread ignores is Mantik and Chesser's analysis of two simultaneous frontal shots.

‘Saturday Night Live' Cold Open Spoofs Donald Trump's Sales Pitch For $60 Bibles: "Sounds Like A Joke … But It's Also Very Real" (msn.com)

Would love to see this if either of you can provide a link.

This is a classic informative thread.

I find this post by Ed LeDoux particularly relevant. Ed LeDoux Members 475 Gender:Male Location:Hawaii Interests:JFK & political assassinations. Posted February 12, 2007 · IP (edited) Hi Myra, Here are a few bits on the subject of his eyes, Dennis David:....the right eye seemed to be a little more prominent than it is here in this picture. (photo 1= stare of death) William Law: More prominent as to what? David: Protruded. Law: So it was popped. David: You could say that. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul O'Connor: His right eye, as I remember, was poked completely out of the orbit, the eye casing. I remember that Dr. Boswell and I looked into the back of the cranium, looking towards the front, and the orbit-the boney casing around where the eye sits was completely fractured. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ James Jenkins: ....And the only thing is that when they were preparing the body for burial, they had to put a suture in the right eyelid in order to keep it closed because apparently there may have been some bone fracture in that area, but there was no externally visible wound or fracturing there. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Harold Rydberg: I don't think I see in the autopsy pictures--Dr. Humes told me, "make sure that right eye is blackened" because that orbital socket was fractured, and that right eye was blackened. Now even in lividity, where the blood settles to the bottom, the bruises will still show. And there is no bruise on that right eye. On that face [in the autopsy photographs]. Law: You're talking about whenyou had to do the drawings, correct? Rydberg: Yes. That was one request: "Make sure that right eye is blackened. Bruised. Like you've got a black eye." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerrol Custer: The eye was more protruded at the time, but there's nothing to say that the eye wasn't pushed back in. Because at that time also there was a mortician ther doing his work, his job was fixing, making the body more presentable. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ All above quotes are from William Matson Law's "IN THE EYE OF HISTORY", how apropos!! Great "eye" for detail Myra. I wondered why the priest did not close the eyes for the last rites, or were they already closed by the nurses or Crenshaw. MORE QUOTES: CE 387 Pathological Examination Report ...the eyes are blue, the right pupil measuring 8 mm.in diameter, the left 4 mm. There is edema and aechymosis of the inner canthus region of the left eyelid measuring approximately 1.5 ma. in greatest diameter. There is edema and ecchymosis diffusely over the right supra-orbital ridge with abnormal mobility of the underlying bone. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MR. GUNN: I notice that this photo is different from the first view that we took a look at. The eye, at least on the right side, appears to be open. Actually, both eyes appear to be open. Do you recall whether the eyes were open during the course of the autopsy? DR. J THORNTON BOSWELL: I don't recall that that was a point of interest. I think we just moved back and let the photographer take the picture, and I think maybe positioning the body may have had something to do with stretching the eyelids. But I don't think we made any attempt to take the pictures with the eyes open or closed. MR. GUNN: So the difference on whether the eyes were open or closed would not be of any material significance in terms of the timing of the photographs? DR. J THORNTON BOSWELL: No. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MR. GUNN: Do you have any recollection as to whether the eyes of President Kennedy were open at any point during the autopsy? JOHN T. STRINGER: Yes. MR. GUNN: Were they open at all points during the autopsy? JOHN T. STRINGER: Well, they kept trying to close them, and they'd open again. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MR. GUNN: Do the eyes of President Kennedy appear to be open in these photographs? Dr. Humes: Yes. MR. GUNN: Were the eyes, in fact, open during the autopsy, do you recall? Dr. Humes: The picture shows me that they were. MR. GUNN: If other photographs did not have the eyes open, would you be able to explain the difference in that appearance? Dr. Humes: I don't know. I might, I guess. I don't know. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Arlen Specter: Upon your arrival in the room, where President Kennedy was situated, what did you observe as to his condition? Malcolm Perry: At the time I entered the door, Dr. Carrico was attending him. He was attaching the Bennett apparatus to an endotracheal tube in place to assist his respiration. The President was lying supine on the carriage, underneath the overhead lamp. His shirt, coat, had been removed. There was a sheet over his lower extremities and the lower portion of his trunk. He was unresponsive. There was no evidence of voluntary motion. His eyes were open, deviated up and outward, and the pupils were dilated and fixed. Edited February 12, 2007 by Ed LeDoux Quote Bernice Moore JFK 3.6k Gender:Female Location:Canada Posted February 12, 2007 · IP (edited)

I had never heard of Crowley until reading of him in ATM. The reviews of this book at amazon are enlightening. Apparently there are several other biographies of him. Aleister Crowley: The Biography: Spiritual Revolutionary, Romantic Explorer, Occult Master and Spy: Churton, Tobias: 9781780283845: Amazon.com: Books The part in ATM is under a subtitle of The Occult Side of MLULTRA. From pages 288-289. The MKULTRA program funded drug experiments conducted by Alister Crowley, a controversial and some would say depraved, practitioner of the "black arts" and considered a "high priest" of occultism. The World War II 'truth drug' research conducted by Stanley Lovell's OSS department had briefly examined Crowley's experiments with drugs, but had discarded them because OSS scientists found Crowley "simply too difficult to fathom." Nonetheless the CIA took a second look. . . . was a lifelong intelligence operative for the British government. . . . Crowley apparently enjoyed the effects of drugs upon himself, as yeas later in the 1920's he was experimenting with mescaline, and in the late 1930's he was introduced to the wonders of peyote by Aldous Huxley. Compounding matters was Crowley's long time addiction to heroin, which had first been prescribed for treatment of his severe "spasmodic asthma". What seemed to attract the CIA's scientific attention was Crowley's use of drugs such as datura, and a hallucinogen called "Raziel's Sapphire" that was used by Native Americans in Florida. Crowley variously combined these drugs with sexual practices and wrote of his experiences in lurid detail. Apparently, this tied into safe house experiments . . . Gittinger would say years later: Yes, we were interested in the combination of certain drugs with sex acts... For a while we employed several prostitutes for project-related work in the safe houses. They would lure clients in for the purpose of drawing information from them while they were preoccupied or distracted. This would fit neatly with Crowley's practice of "sexual magik" and drugs. Grant writes that Crowley used them [drugs] all in his search for the mysterious elixir potent to unseal the gates of the invisible world. He also wished to compare the states of consciousness induced by their use with those resulting from madness, obsession and mystical exaltation."

This is alluded to in the thread mentioned above but may be the best read on the subject.