Ron Bulman

W, I also agree it was a coalition. But who at what level? The CIA and Military on an operational level, assets of theirs? Above them? Wall Street. David Rockefeller (Dulles still worked for him), the Chairman John J. McCloy, Secretary of the Treasury C. Douglas Dillion, many more. Angleton still in effect worked for Dulles. More later.

Yes sir. Decker reportedly told Walthers to take them to Fritz/Curry/the DPD, he wanted nothing to do with them. The SS was working with the DPD that night. They knew what to do with them.

Bump.

I've read somewhere before about the Philippines Gold. Hoarded in caves there by the Japanese from their conquests in WWII. Spirited out under Lansdale (?) to a remote mountain underground mountain site in New Mexico. Used to finance CIS projects, Nixon stole some of it? Crazy? Like I said, what I've read, somewhere, at some time, I'm not making it up.

Is the card a deliberate clue? A calling card?

I've not bumped this thread in a couple of years now. Probably the best one I've ever started, though Two Oswald's in the Texas Theater turned out pretty informative as well. Many comments from people I respect. Not much deflection. Re reading it I thought Max is really Good, is he not? I think the Stones got it wrong. It was not you and me. But they got it right, the devil is in the details, maybe David Talbot might agree? I've never seen this version from Austin, Tx before. Keef gets to jam with Ronnie Woods playing lead in the back ground on some of it. Good stuff.

Well, that is a good idea, lone nutter or not. It's a deep subject I am not very familiar with but I feel many others are probably not as well. I think the big picture behind his overall policy may well have been a big contributing factor to his assassination. I do have Greg Poulgrain's JFK vs Allen Dulles. I've read some about much, Cuba, Russia, Vietnam, the Middle East-Israel/Egypt, the Congo, South America. Is there a book out there that puts it all together, by someone objective who knows what they are talking about? It could be historically significant.

Yes, not only the number of but who some of the cops were. Pinky Westbrook out of the personnel department. Buddy Walthers of the Sheriff's Office (Decker had told them to go out and watch the parade but not participate in JFK's protection, that was a city responsibility, not a county one), Bardwell Odum of the FBI. Seems like there was another odd one there. There was a theory I read of years ago that Tippit was killed to draw attention to Oak Cliff, both to catch the supposed killer of the president and draw attention by law enforcement away from downtown. So conspirators could escape. If I remember right, Officer Leavelle (handcuffed to Oswald when he was shot) told author Joseph McBride the JFK killing was no worse to them than a nixxer killing in South Dallas, but everybody wanted to catch a cop killer.

I know this thread is about Ruth and Johnny's article on her. As Michael has been brought up, I thought I'd mention this here as it's relevant, instead of starting another Paine thread. I did mention it in another thread from memory yesterday, but this is actual WC testimony. Of Dallas Sherrif's Deputy Buddy Walthers, the search of the garage, seven small file cabinets and what they contained, and, his "conversation over the ironing board" with Michael Paine. Who tries to frame Lee from the get-go. Mr. Walthers. You could tell it from the way it was tied and the impression of where that barrel went up in it where it was tied, that a rifle had been tied in it, but what kind---you couldn't tell, but you could tell a rifle had been wrapped up in it, and then we found some little metal file cabinets---I don't know what kind you would call them---they would carry an 8 by 10 folder, all right, but with a single handle on top of it and the handle moves. Mr. Liebeler. About how many of them would you think there were? Mr. Walthers. There were six or seven, I believe, and I put them all in the trunk of my car . . . Mr. Liebeler. What did he say? Mr. Walthers. I didn't ask him, of course, if he knew he had been arrested. I asked him if he knew Oswald and he said, "Yes"; he had known him. We were standing, I remember, on each side of the ironing board when I talked to him and he said "Yes," he had known him and I said, "How does the guy think, what is he, what does he do?" He said, "He's a Communist. He is very communistic minded. He believes in it." And he says, "He used to try to convince me it was a good thing," and he says, "I don't believe in it." And our conversation didn't go too far. It was just a matter of talk about Oswald and what he had to say about him being a Communist. They were all put in the cars and we took them to Capt. Will Fritz' office along with the stuff we had confiscated, the files and the blanket and the other stuff, and I turned them over to Captain Fritz and left them and went back to my station. Mr. Liebeler. What was in these file cabinets? Mr. Walthers. We didn't go through them at the scene. I do remember a letterhead--I can't describe it--I know we opened one of them and we seen what it was, that it was a lot of personal letters and stuff and a letterhead that this Paine fellow had told us about, and he said, "That's from the people he writes to in Russia"; he was talking about this letterhead we had pulled out and so I just pushed it all back down and shut it and took the whole works. Mr. Liebeler. I have been advised that some story has developed that at some point that when you went out there you found seven file cabinets full of cards that had the names on them of pro-Castro sympathizers or something of that kind, but you don't remember seeing any of them? Mr. Walthers. Well, that could have been one, but I didn't see it. Mr. Liebeler. There certainly weren't any seven file cabinets with the stuff you got out there or anything like that? Mr. Walthers. I picked up all of these file cabinets and what all of them contained, I don't know myself to this day. Mr. Liebeler. As I was sitting here listening to your story, I could see where that story might have come from--you mentioned the "Fair Play for Cuba" leaflets that were in a barrel. Mr. Walthers. That's right--we got a stack of them out of that barrel, but things get all twisted around.

Keep it secret for his benefactors, the Rockefellers and others. See, JFK vs. Allen Dulles: Battleground Indonesia: Poulgrain, Greg, Stone, Oliver, DiEugenio, James: 9781510744790: Amazon.com: Books

Maybe it's time to backtrack a bit on Paine discussions. Read this and get back to me. Next, we'll do Ruth's couch.

I guess this would be an example of Michael Paine pushing Oswald as a Communist the afternoon/evening of November 22, 1963. I've made a few posts related to that in a thread I started several years ago about small file boxes in the Paine's garage. This is from memory but it's documented. Michael arrived at their house shortly after police on 11/22. He had a conversation with Dallas Police Officer or a Dallas Sherriff's Officer over an ironing board in the kitchen near the door to the garage. In it he mentioned Oswald talked about Castro and Communism being better than capitalism. That he didn't like such talk. I think this may have been related to the discovery of the file boxes, in that they contained information on Cuban-US citizens. He was asked what the files were all about. He said they were Oswald's. The files were loaded into the trunk of a Sheriff's office car and taken to Dallas. Decker wanted nothing to do with them, take them to the DPD. Where they disappeared. Then one reappeared, empty. Then Ruth remembered two, in her closet. One of correspondence from friends, one of record albums. These would have been 8 1/2' X 11" files, they wouldn't hold albums. The existence of the files is documented by the reports of a at least one DPD officer and one SO, I think mentioned in one others. I believe Michael was questioned about or mentioned it himself in his WC testimony. Ruth's two in the closet may be from her WC testimony as well, but then again it may be from Max Good's interview. Anyway, it seems Michael was implicating Oswald as a Communism/Castro on 11/22/63.

200 posts in this thread now. 100 of them by new member Matt as this is the only thread I know of he's posted in.

Cory, I made no comment, that whole section I quoted was Johnny Carins from part two of his article at K & K. I found it interesting that either in 1964 to the WC or recently to Mallon one she lied about the rifle possibly being in the duffel bag. Or at her age maybe it was just a lapse in memory. In 1964 to the WC she said: In a notable deviation from recent disclosures, Mrs. Paine had testified to the Warren Commission about Oswald’s luggage and the alleged concealment of the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle within. When probed specifically about the possibility of these bags containing a long, slim object like a rifle, Mrs. Paine firmly denied noticing anything that would suggest the presence of such an item, asserting that the bags appeared to be filled with clothes and showed no signs of concealing a weapon. (Volume II; p. 462-463) Recently to Mallon she said: Ruth Paine.“There were two large Marine duffel bags, standing this high, he could have easily put a full-fledged rifle, it wouldn't even have to have been broken down to fit in there, so yea, looking back it has to have been in there.” A bit of a contradiction? I guess Bill didn't notice that in his idol worship of her.

The there is this, Thomas Mallon. ...And the really awful part of the journey home (from New Orleans to Dallas) was you didn't know that one of the items, that was in the car, that he had packed, that was with everything... and one of the things in the car was the rifle. Ruth Paine.“It has to have been.” Thomas Mallon.“Yes.” Ruth Paine.“There were two large Marine duffel bags, standing this high, he could have easily put a full-fledged rifle, it wouldn't even have to have been broken down to fit in there, so yea, looking back it has to have been in there.” In a notable deviation from recent disclosures, Mrs. Paine had testified to the Warren Commission about Oswald’s luggage and the alleged concealment of the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle within. When probed specifically about the possibility of these bags containing a long, slim object like a rifle, Mrs. Paine firmly denied noticing anything that would suggest the presence of such an item, asserting that the bags appeared to be filled with clothes and showed no signs of concealing a weapon. (Volume II; p. 462-463)

IDK.

She was taking a lot of the pills for a long time before she OD'd . With alcohol.

I remember the movie Deep Throat. Which one was Moynihan. Was Hedi Riken her real name? As a Whitehouse call girl did Nixon know her personally himself, any proof of such?

Hi Gil. Not to detract from the medical evidence. But the related question has been asked, how did a shot from behind result in back and to the left? I don't buy the neuromuscular contraction theory, nor the melons or the gelatin filled what ever it was.

The there is this, Thomas Mallon. ...And the really awful part of the journey home (from New Orleans to Dallas) was you didn't know that one of the items, that was in the car, that he had packed, that was with everything... and one of the things in the car was the rifle. Ruth Paine.“It has to have been.” Thomas Mallon.“Yes.” Ruth Paine.“There were two large Marine duffel bags, standing this high, he could have easily put a full-fledged rifle, it wouldn't even have to have been broken down to fit in there, so yea, looking back it has to have been in there.” In a notable deviation from recent disclosures, Mrs. Paine had testified to the Warren Commission about Oswald’s luggage and the alleged concealment of the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle within. When probed specifically about the possibility of these bags containing a long, slim object like a rifle, Mrs. Paine firmly denied noticing anything that would suggest the presence of such an item, asserting that the bags appeared to be filled with clothes and showed no signs of concealing a weapon. (Volume II; p. 462-463) This is funny. Michael, Ruth, and Marina all testified to Not unloading a rifle if I remember right. So, Lee must have brought it on the bus he told Ruth he took from N.O. to Dallas. Along with those seven little file cabinets. And secreted them all in the garage himself. Sorry, the tread title prompted me to remember this, for the first time in years, and share it.

My earlier post was based completely on part I. About finished with part II, I wanted to note this before I lost it. I well may have read it and forgotten it, it is from WC testimony, but I don't remember part of this. In a memorandum written in 1964, Norman Redlich reports that, “James H. Martin stated that (after the assassination) he had consciously attempted to create a public image of Marina Oswald as a simple, devoted housewife who had suffered at the hands of her husband and who was now filled with remorse for her husband’s actions and deeply grateful for the generosity and understanding of the American people... As Martin’s testimony indicates, there is a strong possibility that Marina Oswald is in fact a very different person— cold, calculating, avaricious, scornful of generosity, and capable of an extreme lack of sympathy in personal relationships. A wife who married him for selfish motives, degraded him in public (and) taunted him about his inadequacies…” (see this) Nor this: George DeMohrenschildt.“I don't like a woman who bitches at her husband all the time, and she did, you know. She annoyed him. She bickered. She brought the worst out in him. She said, 'He sleeps with me just once a month, and I never get any satisfaction out of it.' A rather crude and completely straightforward thing to say in front of relative strangers, as we were." (Volume IX; p. 166-284)

Gene, there is this recent thread about Apron Man I'll link. But why is he walking in the middle of the street, against traffic after the assassination when others are running the other way, with Dark Complected Man on the curb in the back ground? A signal, it's over?

You are prolific Matt. It seems you have a lot of time on your hands since you joined on Saturday making 58 posts. Some of us don't have time to read all of them, though they may be relevant.

Thanks again Pete for this too. I remember reading about Ruby's telephone records, the names Pecora, Weiner and Gruber in particular ring bells for me. I think this was 30 something years ago from either Contract on America by David Scheim or Mafia Kingfish by John Davis. Meyers at the Cabana, later when questioned about Jean West/Aase he described her as something like she's not real smart, but very accommodating. I did read something once about Ruby handing someone a pistol, but didn't know or remember at least it was Oswald, that there were three witnesses, never questioned. More on the tv eq later. I went looking for your article in the Dealy Plaza Echo. I had looked for something by Bart Kamp there and I think I got the same response as tonight. My malware pops up and says site compromised, something about hackers attacking it? I'd really like to read your article.

The French documentary is excellent. It is a bit disorienting trying to follow the English subtitles and the film itself, but well worth the effort. It may not be from Ms. Wilkinson's archive frames but this is still the clearest version I've ever seen, and it seems fuller. I don't recall seeing the full sequence of Hill on the back bumper step, Jackie climbing on to the trunk and retrieving the piece of JFK's brain or skull, which can be seen plainly here, then getting back into the back seat. Then Dino Brugioni, starting about 22:20. 1975, the President's Commission, (Ford) investigation, CIA. Dino told his new boss at NPIC he still had one set of the briefing boards in a safe. His new Director blew up. GD, why the hell do you have them, get rid of them. He "took them to the in-house courier service, told them to wrap it and send it to the director's office. Did he have them sent to his boss? The very director that told him to get rid of them? The only other Director I can think of would be of the CIA, at that time George Herbert Walker Bush. 27:48 Never noticed the Umbrella sticking up by the sign as JFK comes out from behind it. Again, clear here. Life pictures = McMahon/Hunter, Saturday night. I.E. Brugioni worked with the original film Friday night. His briefing boards caused the need for alteration, Hawkeyeworks, the need for a new set of boards to brief most in the Government and Media. Which gave us the Life pictures. The WCA included Zapruder, Clint Murchison, Harold Dryhole Byrd (TSBD), Judge Sarah Hughes, AF-1 Oath of Office LBJ (in essence appointed by him). George De Mohrenschildt, George Herbert Walker Bush, and Harlson Lafyette Hunt, the richest man in the world at the time.