Was it Lansdale?

[Guest Mark Valenti]

Lansdale sent Prouty on an errand to buy a gift for Diem. Kind of like a gofer.

Lansdale on Prouty: "I continue to be surprised to find Fletcher Prouty quoted as an authority. He was my "cross to bear" before Dan Ellsberg came along."

Well, Mark, I have no doubt that what you say is true here. There was no way in which Lieutenant Prouty was the equal of General Lansdale -- on multiple levels.

Nevertheless, we aren't asking Prouty to be his equal -- or to be perfect, or even a great man. We are only looking for an identification.

Also, whatever Prouty's political opinions were -- that has no interest to me at all. All I care about is an identification.

Prouty might not have been a great man, but he was an intelligent man -- and he served Lansdale with loyalty according to his military rank. So, Prouty was also an honorable man.

I find zero reason to believe that Prouty would just bad-talk Lansdale out of some personal vendetta.

Instead -- I find every reason to believe that Prouty got this one right -- and General Krulak agreed with him.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

How do you feel about the things that Prouty obviously got wrong?

[Paul Trejo]

...Why would Lansdale be there?

Was it just to see the president go by?

Then why did he choose Dealey Plaza?

Why didn't he stand in front of the Adolphus Hotel (where he may have been staying), be at Love Field, or anywhere in town along the parade route?

Or was it possibly to prevent the assassination?

Well, a good way to prevent the assassination would be to tell JFK, "they're going to assassinate you!"

Here is my conclusion: It may be Lansdale walking past the tramps. And if it is, he was up to no good.

That is all.

Although I tend to agree with you Ron, I will continue to give Larry Hancock's expertise the benefit of the doubt until further evidence becomes available.

Your question is apt -- if it was Lansdale, then what in Hades was he doing at Dealey Plaza? I will try to meet Larry Hancock half-way, and, arguendo, ascribe a benign theory to the situation.

(1) There were always and everywhere assassination plots against JFK, in every major city in the USA.

(2) The SS and the CIA and the JCS were always on top of these rumors and informer reports.

(3) In Dallas, the most likely place for an assassination would have been the Trade Mart -- so the vast bulk of Security personnel on 11/22/1963 were stationed at the Trade Mart.

(4) That is why those who were not subordinates (e.g. Lansdale) would scope out alternative sites for a possible assassination. For an experienced military man, Dealey Plaza would clearly be a dream site. The bowl-shape, the hairpin turn, the high buildings, the fence, the storm drain -- just perfect.

(5) The Dallas Police Department -- as a collective -- hated JFK with a purple passion, being extremely right-wing as a general rule (wrote Bill Turner in 1973).

(6) IMHO, the Dallas Police Department knew about a planned JFK assassination at the Trade Mart.

(7) IMHO, the Dallas Police Department decided to show who really ran Dallas -- and they would not be upstaged by some outsiders.

(8) IMHO, the Dallas Police Department planned their own JFK assassination -- led by Ex-General Edwin Walker.

(9) IMHO, Guy Banister had fed all his data about OSWALD to Ex-General Walker, who coordinated this data with his secret military contacts in the Army; perhaps in the 488th Military Intelligence unit.

(10) IMHO, at least two Dallas Police were shooters that day -- Roscoe White and J.D. Tippit.

(11) IMHO, DPD Chief Jesse Curry deliberately led the JFK motorcade into the kill-zone.

(12) There were several DPD policemen behind the wooden fence and behind the Grassy Knoll (since it was a well-known parking lot for the Sheriff's office and other County workers).

(13) After the JFK murder, General Lansdale moved into action, and rounded up any stragglers inside rail cars behind the parking lot behind that picket fence of the Grassy Knoll.

(14) IMHO, before the afternoon was over, LBJ gave the direct order to folks at the level of General Lansdale -- "In the interest of National Security, we are going to insist on one 'Lone Shooter' and all other evidence must be kept Top Secret until further notice."

(15) At that point, General Lansdale delegated the 'three tramps' scenario to underlings and rejoined his entourage.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

<edit typos>

Edited April 15, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[David Andrews]

Lansdale is said to have been in Ft. Worth the night before the assassination. Was he there then? Was he still in Texas on November 22nd?

[Ron Ecker]

Lansdale is said to have been in Ft. Worth the night before the assassination. Was he there then? Was he still in Texas on November 22nd?

A claim check for the Hotel Texas where JFK stayed in Fort Worth (whatever a claim check is, I'm not a hotel person) was found among Lansdale's papers. But there was no date on it and the hotel records for that time no longer exist.

I'd be curious to know why a man like Lansdale would keep a hotel claim check among his historical papers. It doesn't sound like a very significant piece of paper.

Edited April 15, 2015 by Ron Ecker

[Paul Trejo]

How do you feel about the things that Prouty obviously got wrong?

Well, Mark, I'm going to refer to a previous post that you wrote to Brian about this -- so that I can respond point by point. I find I disagree with some of your conclusions.

I'll complete that next post in just a little while.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited April 15, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[Larry Hancock]

Ron, you would be amazed at the amount of trivial receipts and paperwork you would find in my possession after a 35 year business career.....grin.

In response to Paul's comments, although I normally try to avoid speculation other than in conference hotel bars, I'll let myself go a bit and offer up the following which

would be at least consistent with known facts.

Beginning with Chicago and that trip cancellation, the President would very likely asked questions and been told of possible threats....by the time of the Miami trip he would have

been further advised there were security issues with groups of Cuban exiles - hard to avoid given the extreme preparations for Miami. We also have at least on exile close to RFK who has stated he shared info on such

threats with RFK and its likely that RFK was very much aware of the hostility in certain exile circles.

The problem would be that JFK had little ability to respond to that other than rely on the Secret Service. On the other hand, RFK was close to certain exiles and although

he was generally resented and had poor relationships with JMWAVE leadership, he had worked with Lansdale very closely for over a year. You can see how closely

by reading Lansdale's Church committee interview. The second problem would be that Lansdale himself had few operational level contacts with the exiles and the

JMWAVE leadership from Shackley to Morales had viewed his Mongoose program with skepticism if not outright hostility.

Still, if RFK was worried he might well have turned to Lansdale and asked him to be on the lookout for any threat rumor and gossip, and if Lansdale had been in the Dallas area

he might have been in the Plaza doing just that...fruitlessly. We know that RFK's first thought was that the shooting was related to the exiles, his phone call that afternoon

demonstrates that....so his having asked Lansdale for help is speculative but not impossible or inconsistent.

Personally I doubt that photo is of Lansdale but if definitive proof were to show up that it was he, I would lean towards the preceding for an explanation.

[Ron Ecker]

Larry, I suppose it would support your speculative explanation if Lansdale in fact stayed at the same hotel as JFK on the night before the assassination. Staying at the same hotel, and hiding his face when necessary, would seemingly be an awfully stupid thing to do if Lansdale was there to run an assassination command center in Dallas. He would stay at the same hotel, one would think, only if JFK knew he was there and for what purpose.

[Paul Trejo]

Bolded text from Prouty's letter:

To have your confirmation of my belief that our mutual friend (Lansdale) was there at that time means quite a lot. I join with you in the question, What in the world was he doing there?

Again - and it bears repeating - Prouty claimed that Krulak made an INDEPENDENT identification of Lansdale in that photo. This is not true.

This led to the discovery that the "tramps" had not even been booked in the Sheriff's office where they had been taken so conspicuously, and that there were no records of or by the police.

This is not true.

Attempts have been made through the years to identify the "tramps" and the "police". Many have said one of the tramps was Howard Hunt. It looks like him.

The tramps were Gedney, Abrams and Doyle.

As you will recall, the Dallas police did not even charge Oswald with the crime until after midnight...that is, on Nov 23rd. They had picked him up on the suspicion of having shot the police officer named Tippet, not JFK.

The ENTIRE WORLD knew that Oswald was suspected of killing JFK. He wasn't formally charged until later but it's silly to pretend that people only thought he killed Tippit.

Former VP Nixon, despite his uncertain stories about his whereabouts to the contrary, was still in Dallas that afternoon where he had been with a meeting of Pepsi Cola officials.

This is not true.

OK, Mark, I'm responding to your criticisms of Fletcher Prouty's remarks about General Lansdale:

PROUTY: To have your confirmation of my belief that our mutual friend (Lansdale) was there at that time means quite a lot. I join with you in the question, What in the world was he doing there?

VALENTI: Again - and it bears repeating - Prouty claimed that Krulak made an INDEPENDENT identification of Lansdale in that photo. This is not true.

TREJO: Well, Mark, clearly General Krulak offered his own opinion that the photo was indeed Lansdale from behind. He was a US General -- does anybody believe he was dim-witted and easily manipulated? I don't! Krulak clearly gave his own opinion, and in common sense terms, that's INDEPENDENT. What exactly do you mean Mark, by suggesting that Krulak's opinion failed to be INDEPENDENT?

PROUTY: This led to the discovery that the "tramps" had not even been booked in the Sheriff's office where they had been taken so conspicuously, and that there were no records of or by the police.

VALENTI: This is not true.

TREJO: Yes, Mark, I agree with you here. David Josephs has also supplied official DPD records showing paper shuffling in the DPD regarding these three actors -- or rather, hobos. (Though it's odd that these hobos wore fresh clean clothes, and two at least were young and manicured.)

PROUTY: Attempts have been made through the years to identify the "tramps" and the "police". Many have said one of the tramps was Howard Hunt. It looks like him.

VALENTI: The tramps were Gedney, Abrams and Doyle.

TREJO: Maybe they were, and maybe not -- the jury is still out. Maybe they were actors. Yet I agree that Prouty was clearly mistaken about this; i.e. Prouty was ignorant of the DPD documents that have since come forward. Yet so was Jim Garrison, for Pete's sake. The DPD kept their cards close to their vests, you betcha.

PROUTY: As you will recall, the Dallas police did not even charge Oswald with the crime until after midnight...that is, on Nov 23rd. They had picked him up on the suspicion of having shot the police officer named Tippet, not JFK.

VALENTI: The ENTIRE WORLD knew that Oswald was suspected of killing JFK. He wasn't formally charged until later but it's silly to pretend that people only thought he killed Tippit.

TREJO: Well, Mark, I disagree slightly. Lee Harvey OSWALD is part of the "entire world" and he didn't know that he was a suspect until he heard it from newspaper "reporters in the hall" very late at night. Most people knew that OSWALD was the only suspect all day long, because J. Edgar Hoover leaked his "insight" to the press early and often. What Prouty meant was that in giving the DPD the benefit of the doubt, let the Press say what they will, the DPD probably wasn't certain until midnight. Yet when we look at the film that Mark Lane presents of the DPD staff and DA Henry Wade, we can clearly see that the DPD had stopped looking for anybody else. As Henry Wade said, "This has been a joint effort between the DPD, the Secret Service and the FBI..."

PROUTY: Former VP Nixon, despite his uncertain stories about his whereabouts to the contrary, was still in Dallas that afternoon where he had been with a meeting of Pepsi Cola officials.

VALENTI: This is not true.

TREJO: Well, Mark, I've heard both sides of that story -- and all we can glean from them is that Prouty was still guessing as hard as he could, in conjunction with Jim Garrison, about Who Dunnit. Well, that's what we do on this Forum as well. Prouty should be allowed to wonder and guess as well. This was a benign guess on his part. Clearly Fletcher Prouty had been converted by Mark Lane and Jim Garrison. He responded with his own political opinions (which are fairly worthless) and also with a few eye-witness details of US Government behavior at the crucial dates (which are quite valuable).

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited April 16, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[Guest Mark Valenti]

What exactly do you mean Mark, by suggesting that Krulak's opinion failed to be INDEPENDENT?

I mean that Prouty lied and said that he never mentioned Lansdale's name or suggested that Lansdale was in the photo when in fact, he did do just that in his letter to Krulak. Prouty claimed that Krulak made the ID on his own, independent of Prouty's prompting. Not so.

Though it's odd that these hobos wore fresh clean clothes, and two at least were young and manicured.

If you read the police reports you will learn that this is false. It's an easily-corrected canard that has been floating around for years. Their clothes smelled. They were shabby and dirty. Marvin Wise said he could smell wine on the breath of one of them. He said they were "smelly" and that the pictures didn't do justice to their actual condition. He said that if you look closely at the photos you can see just how dirty they were.

In fact, later when Wise (are you reading this David Josephs?) took the three tramps in his squad car to Dallas Police HQ so they could be brought to Fritz's office, he said he felt guilty because he was taking three obviously innocent men to be questioned in such an important case. Later, he was sent with the tramps back to the Sheriff's building. He felt as though he had wasted the entire day with the three smelly tramps.

[David Josephs]

Yes I am Mark... And you're wrong.

[Guest Mark Valenti]

It can't be any clearer. Wise took the "famous" tramps to Fritz and then returned them to Jones.

[Thomas Graves]

What exactly do you mean Mark, by suggesting that Krulak's opinion failed to be INDEPENDENT?

I mean that Prouty lied and said that he never mentioned Lansdale's name or suggested that Lansdale was in the photo when in fact, he did do just that in his letter to Krulak. Prouty claimed that Krulak made the ID on his own, independent of Prouty's prompting. Not so.

Though it's odd that these hobos wore fresh clean clothes, and two at least were young and manicured.

If you read the police reports you will learn that this is false. It's an easily-corrected canard that has been floating around for years. Their clothes smelled. They were shabby and dirty. Marvin Wise said he could smell wine on the breath of one of them. He said they were "smelly" and that the pictures didn't do justice to their actual condition. He said that if you look closely at the photos you can see just how dirty they were.

In fact, later when Wise (are you reading this David Josephs?) took the three tramps in his squad car to Dallas Police HQ so they could be brought to Fritz's office, he said he felt guilty because he was taking three obviously innocent men to be questioned in such an important case. Later, he was sent with the tramps back to the Sheriff's building. He felt as though he had wasted the entire day with the three smelly tramps.

Good work, Mark.

Marvin Wise was interviewed by the FBI on March 8, 1992.

Here are some excerpts from the 3/8/92 FBI report regarding Wise's interview:

"By the time they reached captain FRITZ'S office, WISE felt "guilty and ashamed" that he was now being asked to bring the three hobos to the Captain of Homicide. WISE was convinced that these three had nothing to do with the assassination of the President. WISE did not want any of the detectives of the homicide department to think less of him because he was bringing these hobos to them for an interview regarding the assassination of the President of the United States."

[...]

"When the three were returned to WISE, he was told by a senior Homicide officer to take them back to Sheriff Decker. The three were escorted back to Sheriff DECKER'S office without being booked into the DALLAS COUNTY JAIL. WISE speculated that because they had not been booked in, the single "dummy sheets" were maintained by the Homicide Division only because of their connection to the assassination of President Kennedy. By the time WISE and his three prisoners reached Sheriff DECKER'S office for the second time, WISE wanted to "dump" the three. In his own mind, WISE had wasted the whole day with these three individuals. Again, one of the [sic] Sheriff DECKER'S detectives escorted the three into Sheriff DECKER'S office. On this occasion, Sheriff DECKER did not even talk to the hobos. The three hobos were then escorted to a location outside of the site [sic] of WISE."

http://jfkassassinationfiles.com/fbi_124-10179-10310

Note:

According to the same FBI report, shortly after the three men were taken out of view of Wise in the Sheriff's Department, he was told that he could leave. He walked back to his police car in front of the TSBD. Five to ten minutes later he returned to the Sheriff's Department to find out if the three men had been incarcerated because if they had, he would receive credit for it. He was told by a deputy sheriff that they had been released. Since his police car was near the main entrance of the Sheriff's Department, Wise would probably have noticed them if they had exited through the door normally used for the releasing of prisoners, but he didn't see them. Wise admitted that they could have exited through the door on Main Street, but that this would have been unusual.

--Tommy

Edited April 16, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[David Josephs]

And you can't be more wrong.

Wise brought them to Decker and they disappeared. The three smelly REAL hobos were at the DPD with Jones and Chambers And were in jail in the DPD with Oswald.

The sheriff's office with Decker is not the DPD building. One is county, one is city.

If you'd rather hold your breath until your opinion trumps the evidence, have at it. I'm done discussing this with you.

Edited April 16, 2015 by David Josephs

[Thomas Graves]

What exactly do you mean Mark, by suggesting that Krulak's opinion failed to be INDEPENDENT?

I mean that Prouty lied and said that he never mentioned Lansdale's name or suggested that Lansdale was in the photo when in fact, he did do just that in his letter to Krulak. Prouty claimed that Krulak made the ID on his own, independent of Prouty's prompting. Not so.

Though it's odd that these hobos wore fresh clean clothes, and two at least were young and manicured.

If you read the police reports you will learn that this is false. It's an easily-corrected canard that has been floating around for years. Their clothes smelled. They were shabby and dirty. Marvin Wise said he could smell wine on the breath of one of them. He said they were "smelly" and that the pictures didn't do justice to their actual condition. He said that if you look closely at the photos you can see just how dirty they were.

In fact, later when Wise (are you reading this David Josephs?) took the three tramps in his squad car to Dallas Police HQ so they could be brought to Fritz's office, he said he felt guilty because he was taking three obviously innocent men to be questioned in such an important case. Later, he was sent with the tramps back to the Sheriff's building. He felt as though he had wasted the entire day with the three smelly tramps.

[emphasis added by T. Graves]

[David Josephs replied: "Yes I am, Mark... And you're wrong."]

Good work, Mark.

Marvin Wise was interviewed by the FBI on March 8, 1992.

Here are some excerpts from the 3/8/92 FBI report regarding Wise's interview:

"When WISE asked what he should do with the three individuals, he was told by the [Police] Inspectors [in front of the TSBD] to take them over to Sheriff DECKER'S office which was located at an angle just across the street from the Book Depository."

[...]

[Note: The Sheriff's Department was in the same building that housed the County Jail.]

[...]

[When they arrived at Sheriff Decker's office, Decker was busy talking with some high-ranking deputies. While waiting for Decker, Wise wrote down the names of the three "hobos" -- Abrams, Doyle, and Gedney -- and wrote down some other information about them.]

[...]

"After obtaining the information from the three, DECKER [sic; obviously "WISE" was meant] was approached by one of the deputies who then took Abrams, Doyle, and Gedney into Sheriff DECKER'S office. Wise was told to wait outside of the Sheriff's office. WISE recognized the deputy from previous encounters but could not recall his name. It was likewise with the other deputies that he saw in Sheriff DECKER'S office on that day. DECKER along with deputies talked with the three for about five minutes. WISE was then told to take the three down to Captain FRITZ'S office. Captain FRITZ was in charge of the Homicide Division of the City of Dallas Police Department. His office was located at the police department headquarters several blocks from the county jail."

[...]

"By the time they reached captain FRITZ'S office, WISE felt "guilty and ashamed" that he was now being asked to bring the three hobos to the Captain of Homicide. WISE was convinced that these three had nothing to do with the assassination of the President. WISE did not want any of the detectives of the homicide department to think less of him because he was bringing these hobos to them for an interview regarding the assassination of the President of the United States."

[...]

"When the three were returned to WISE, he was told by a senior Homicide officer to take them back to Sheriff DECKER. The three were escorted back to Sheriff DECKER'S office without being booked into the DALLAS CITY JAIL. WISE speculated that because they had not been booked in, the single "dummy sheets" were maintained by the Homicide Division only because of their connection to the assassination of President Kennedy. By the time WISE and his three prisoners reached Sheriff DECKER'S office for the second time, WISE wanted to "dump" the three. In his own mind, WISE had wasted the whole day with these three individuals. Again, one of the [sic] Sheriff DECKER'S detectives escorted the three into Sheriff DECKER'S office. On this occasion, Sheriff DECKER did not even talk to the hobos. The three hobos were then escorted to a location outside of the site [sic] of WISE."

http://jfkassassinationfiles.com/fbi_124-10179-10310

Here's my accurate synopsis of the pertinent part of this 3/8/92 FBI report as it continues:

Shortly after the three men were taken out of his view in the Sheriff's Department, Wise was told that he could leave. He walked back to his police car in front of the TSBD. Five to ten minutes later he returned to the Sheriff's Department to find out if the three men had been incarcerated because if they had, he would receive credit for it. He was told by a deputy sheriff that they had been released. Since his police car was near the main entrance of the Sheriff's Department, Wise would probably have noticed them if they had exited through the door normally used for the releasing of prisoners, but he didn't see them. Wise admitted that they could have exited through the door on Main Street, but he said that that would have been unusual.

--Tommy

bumped for Mark Valenti

Edited April 16, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Guest Mark Valenti]

Question of the night: Were any other prisoners kept in the cells near LHO?