New Information on Oswald in Mexico City

[David Josephs]

Jim asked about the source of the 4 passport like photos....

My gut tells me hey had to do with 544 Camp...

FPCC and Oswald’s sheep dipping.   The white shirt and tie...   the expression is almost the same....

Wouldn’t an application sent to Cuba with his photo on it go a long way to create Bona fides for Ozzie’s FBI work?

With as many assets in Mexico City as the US intel community had, getting an application sent couldn’t be that difficult... 

but just a thought....

 

Edited January 26, 2020 by David Josephs

[Matt Allison]

Looking at these again has me thinking these were earlier than Sept !963; he just looks too healthy for it to be post-Walker incident. Also those look like two different photos to me- his expression in the one with the staple looks different. I still think these are photo booth photos.

[B. A. Copeland]

Good grief.....I cannot imagine the individuals who prayed that Lee would never have a chance to testify in a Court of Law...

[Anthony Mugan]

Thanks for the various helpful replies and interesting photo montages.

I would argue that the Cuban visa application photo could not have been taken in August or September 1963 and must have been taken significantly earlier than June 1963. The reasons for that are that:

a) It is a reasonably clear photograph and in good focus and clearly shows that Oswald's hairline was not receding.

b) Many photographs of LHO are not all that well focused. Some that are include his June 1963 passport photograph which very clearly shows that his hairline was receding at that time. The police 'mug shot' from New Orleans that August is also reasonably clear and you can see the same thing there too.

The best fit would seem to be to after February 1962 to possibly as late as early 1963. There is a close match in hairstyle to the 1962 family photographs with Marina and June which another commentator has identified as from November 1962 (not checked that at this time, but must at least be around then from the age of the baby). As this is a passport type photograph I'd also be very interested in seeing his exit visa from the Soviet Union but that seems to one of quite a few interesting documents we don't have in the public domain.

The point of this was to dig a little into the background behind the possibility that LHO was impersonated at the Cuban consulate on the 27th September, including the suggestion that this could have been by Leonov. I haven't formed a firm opinion on that basic idea. There would seem to be several difficulties with it including the possibility that Soviet and Cuban diplomats would recognise each other, LHO's later letter which discusses his conversation with Comrade 'Kostin', which at least suggests some involvement in the Mexico City activities and this photograph. If it was attached to the application at the time it's hard to see how the person there could have been Leonov. The basic idea does have a certain logic about it though, so I wanted to dig a little and see which way facts started to go...

So...it's an old photo not taken in Mexico City, that much is clear. Unfortunately the possible date range doesn't preclude at the moment an origin of the photo in either the Soviet Union or the USA at some point in 1962 or very early 63. To support the Leonov idea it would need to be of Soviet origin and then added to the application form prior to it being given to the Warren Commission in 1964 (to avoid the Soviets getting dragged into it). At the moment that is neither confirmed not falsified unfortunately, hence the interest in the exit visa. It's a shame the image of him and Marina in the train window setting off from Russia isn't a little clearer on his hair but it doesn't look quite right. On balance the odds go for a photo taken later in 1962, but it remains an open question in my mind.

 

Thanks all...

[David Andrews]

Is the sweater-vest in the photo traceable to photos of the Russian defection period, when LHO (or "LHO") dressed for climates colder than Texas or Louisiana?

Also, is the viewer intended to associate the sweater-vest with the defection?  As in, a photo selected for the visa application that could be said to have been in possession of the Soviets from the defector period (or that Oswald had retained from that period), though after the assassination no one went so far as to spell it out?

Does one really need a sweater-vest in Mexico City in September?  Chilly much, up in the stands at the corrida?

Edited January 31, 2020 by David Andrews

[Paul Brancato]

That is funny. 

[David Andrews]

7 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

That is funny. 

It's not beyond our intelligence services to be literal minded.  Cold War paranoia was certainly the climate for it.

Edited January 31, 2020 by David Andrews

[Steve Thomas]

On 1/29/2020 at 3:17 AM, Anthony Mugan said:

 On balance the odds go for a photo taken later in 1962, but it remains an open question in my mind.

Deleted

 

Steve Thomas

 

Edited July 18, 2023 by Steve Thomas

[David Josephs]

Some more detail on that photo….

 

[Paul Brancato]

David - have you looked into the parallel story of Oswald entering Mexico by car? I don’t think this materially changes your research. It seems likely true that our Oswald never visited embassies in MC. But I’m still curious.

[John Butler]

On 1/16/2020 at 10:54 AM, James DiEugenio said:

This is my point, which I do not think should be dismissed out of hand with the banishment of "this is why I don't post here that often".

This new work really sets a new paradigm.  And I do not say that very often in this field.

If Mr. Josephs, Mr. Rivera and Armstrong are correct then I believe it sets aside the previous work of people like Scott, Newman and Simpich. What I mean by that is this:  if Oswald was not there, then what becomes of the whole "piggybacking" operation?  If Oswald was not there then, as Dan Hardway once stated, could it all have been made up after the fact?

If such is the case, then IMO, the cover up was planned with the conspiracy.  And in a multi layered manner.  And it took, how long to figure it out?

As Paris Flammonde once said about Jim Garrison--the first critic to point out something was really rotten in Mexico City--its not that he was too radical.  He wasn't radical enough.

This is well stated and the general notion of faked events can be applied to other things within the JFKA.  How many facts does one need to know something strange or fraudulent is going on?  One or more?  I think one does the job of letting you know things are strange.  Then you can begin looking at other things.    And, of course the work of David Josephs, et al said to me, yep I was right.

 

 

On 1/16/2020 at 10:54 AM, James DiEugenio said:

 

Edited October 17, 2021 by John Butler

[John Butler]

On 1/31/2020 at 4:28 AM, Steve Thomas said:

Anthony,

I think you're right. Look at the fullness in his face. Unless he had been very sick, it's hard to see how could have lost that much weight in a month or so.

Steve Thomas

 

And, he sweater is a give away as noted earlier.  I seem to recall or read somewhere that Mexico City is high enough in the mountains in a warm country to have a pleasant climate year around.

Edited October 17, 2021 by John Butler

[David Josephs]

20 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

David - have you looked into the parallel story of Oswald entering Mexico by car? I don’t think this materially changes your research. It seems likely true that our Oswald never visited embassies in MC. But I’m still curious.

Hi Paul.   
 

yes…  th full write up is on k&k in one of the Mexico chapters…  the couple decided/reported on were the Brill’s but their entry papers had the name transposed, if I remember correctly, so I remember a search for the “Allen’s”

Then again, they were looking at just getting him there by any means possible..  the “card” is provided by OCHOA.

 

[Jonathan Cohen]

On 1/31/2020 at 4:28 AM, Steve Thomas said:

Anthony,

I think you're right. Look at the fullness in his face. Unless he had been very sick, it's hard to see how could have lost that much weight in a month or so.

Steve Thomas

 

To my eyes, there is nothing anomalous about these photos having been taken close together chronologically. We also know Oswald owned very little clothing, so it's not surprising he would have worn a sweater for an "official" photo of this type, regardless of the Mexico City climate. The sweater in and of itself is not a "give away" of anything sinister...

[John Butler]

2 hours ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

To my eyes, there is nothing anomalous about these photos having been taken close together chronologically. We also know Oswald owned very little clothing, so it's not surprising he would have worn a sweater for an "official" photo of this type, regardless of the Mexico City climate. The sweater in and of itself is not a "give away" of anything sinister...

But, the fraudulent photo is.  

Most folks show the right hand photo this way instead of the entire photo.  The left shoulder is cut off in this photo indicating it is a photo of a photo that was not entirely successfully copied.  I will not go into the discussion of whether this is a photo of Harvey Oswald or a face mask of Harvey Oswald.  Generally, you see a light copy of Harvey in his sweater, and not a darker photo which gives away the mask outlines.  The left hand mug shot of Harvey is ok.