The inevitable end result of our last 56 years

[W. Niederhut]

12 hours ago, Jeff Carter said:

Is it not a bit more complicated than that? Trump is litigating the mail-in votes, which he signalled he would do back in September. This is somewhat different than "casting doubt on the integrity of the vote" in general, as the NY Times frames it. I understand the unique circumstances of this election year (i.e. pandemic), but I cannot recall when mail-in votes specifically had such profile in the past or when this method had been so heavily promoted, singularly, by just one of the two parties. From my observation, the MSM has been uniform in declaring that Biden has already been declared President, and that Trump has no basis of complaint - neither of which actually correspond to the known reality. It appears that rather than rely on "false electors", Trump's strategy is to seek to invalidate portions of the mail-in count so that he retains the lead in state balloting with valid claim to the state's EC. If the process and procedure of counting the mail-in ballots has been entirely above-board, then it's assured that Biden will take the oath of office.

Bunk.  We've had mail-in voting here in Colorado for several years.   It works very well, and there has been no evidence of voter fraud.

Trump and his RNC goons are simply trying to create a false pretext for contesting the election results-- after sabotaging the USPS deliveries of ballots, and (in Pennsylvania) passing a ridiculous law that prevented the counting of mail-in ballots until 7 A.M. on November 3rd.

As always with Trump, it's a sales scam based on smoke, mirrors, and mass disinformation.

[James DiEugenio]

Joe:

You are wrong about Paul Harvey.  Harvey was a conservative.  Except he was a not a Limbaugh type clown/in your face conservative. He was more an EIsenhower type conservative.

What was the key point in the rise of Limbaugh and the right wing talk loonies was removal of the Fairness Doctrine and Equal Time provisions of the FCC code under Reagan. That was the dam breaker as far as polluting the air waves went.  ABC then arranged a huge launch of Limbaugh out of New York City. Shortly after that, Clear Channel began taking over key stations in large and mid sized cities and placing Limbaugh clones on the air. In LA for example, we used to have intelligent people like Michael Jackson (no, not the singer)and Ira Fistell on our ABC radio channel.  They were dumped and people like Larry Elder did a back flip in order to become a big time radio host.

That decision to cancel the Fairness Doctrine and Equal Time provisions was one of the most pernicious and fateful moves ever done by the FCC. It created a full time propaganda network for the RNC, at the same time that it helped promote the Far Right lunatic fringe of the GOP and forever spell the end of the moderate wing of that party. It paved the way for the likes of Gingrich and DeLay.

That was then made worse by Clinton's decision to modify the ownership rules of the FCC and this allowed even more concentration of power in the field.  Today, something like six companies own over 90 per cent of all broadcasting outlets in America.  Clinton's decision allowed the rapid expansion of companies like Sinclair and OAN.

Edited November 12, 2020 by James DiEugenio

[Joe Bauer]

27 minutes ago, Robert Burrows said:

All good points, Joe. I read this article when it was published back in 2018, and I thought that it explained how we got here very well. 

 

Robert, do you feel radio and TV media can have that much impact and influence in affecting the political mind sets of Americans on a large scale?

Do you agree with my premise in trying to explain how the majority of white Americans have turned so far right in the last 30 years? Actually from Reagan's first run in 1980...40 years ago?

The left/liberal/Democrat party identifiers have been very successfully demonized in this time frame.

[Steve Thomas]

1 hour ago, Joe Bauer said:

Thinking/wondering how white America has turned so far to the right politically the last 30 years.

 

Joe,

From the movie, The American President, 1995"

"President Andrew Shepherd: [in the White House Press Room] For the last couple of months, Senator Rumson has suggested that being president of this country was, to a certain extent, about character, and although I have not been willing to engage in his attacks on me, I've been here three years and three days, and I can tell you without hesitation: Being president of this country is *entirely* about character. For the record: yes, I am a card-carrying member of the ACLU. But the more important question is, why aren't you, Bob? Now, this is an organization whose sole purpose is to defend the Bill of Rights, so it naturally begs the question: Why would a senator, his party's most powerful spokesman and a candidate for President, choose to reject upholding the Constitution? If you can answer that question, folks, then you're smarter than I am, because I didn't understand it until a few hours ago. America isn't easy. America is advanced citizenship. You gotta want it bad, 'cause it's gonna put up a fight. It's gonna say "You want free speech? Let's see you acknowledge a man whose words make your blood boil, who's standing center stage and advocating at the top of his lungs that which you would spend a lifetime opposing at the top of yours. You want to claim this land as the land of the free? Then the symbol of your country can't just be a flag; the symbol also has to be one of its citizens exercising his right to burn that flag in protest. Show me that, defend that, celebrate that in your classrooms. Then, you can stand up and sing about the "land of the free". I've known Bob Rumson for years, and I've been operating under the assumption that the reason Bob devotes so much time and energy to shouting at the rain was that he simply didn't get it. Well, I was wrong. Bob's problem isn't that he doesn't get it. Bob's problem is that he can't sell it! We have serious problems to solve, and we need serious people to solve them. And whatever your particular problem is, I promise you, Bob Rumson is not the least bit interested in solving it. He is interested in two things and two things only: making you afraid of it and telling you who's to blame for it. That, ladies and gentlemen, is how you win elections. You gather a group of middle-aged, middle-class, middle-income voters who remember with longing an easier time, and you talk to them about family and American values and character. And wave an old photo of the President's girlfriend and you scream about patriotism and you tell them, she's to blame for their lot in life, and you go on television and you call her a whore. Sydney Ellen Wade has done nothing to you, Bob. She has done nothing but put herself through school, represent the interests of public school teachers, and lobby for the safety of our natural resources. You want a character debate, Bob? You better stick with me, 'cause Sydney Ellen Wade is way out of your league."

The next time somebody wants to talk to you about "the good old days", or "Make America Great Again", run like hell, because the next thing that comes out of their mouth is going to be a lie.

Steve Thomas

Edited November 12, 2020 by Steve Thomas

[Joe Bauer]

11 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Joe:

You are wrong about Paul Harvey.  Harvey was a conservative.  Except he was a not a Limbaugh type clown/in your face conservative. He was more an EIsenhower type conservative.

What was the key point in the rise of Limbaugh and the right wing talk loonies was removal of the Fairness Doctrine and Equal Time provisions of the FCC code under Reagan. That was the dam breaker as far as polluting the air waves went.  ABC then arranged a huge launch of Limbaugh out of New York City. Shortly after that, Clear Channel began taking over key stations in large and mid sized cities and placing Limbaugh clones on the air. In LA for example, we used to have intelligent people like Michael Jackson (no, not the singer)and Ira Fistell on our ABC radio channel.  They were dumped and people like Larry Elder did a back flip in order to become a big time radio host.

That decision to cancel the Fairness Doctrine and Equal Time provisions was one of the most pernicious and fateful moves ever done by the FCC. It created a full time propaganda network for the RNC, at the same time that it helped promote the Far RIght lunatic fringe of the GOP and forever spell the end of the moderate wing of that party.

That was then made worse by Clinton's decision to modify the ownership rules of the FCC and this allowed even more concentration of power in the field.  Today, something like six companies own over 90 per cent of all broadcasting outlets in America.  Clinton's decision allowed the rapid expansion of companies like SInclair and OAN.

Jim D.

As always, points well taken and so in depth informing and true.

Jim, back in the 1980s and 1990s the most listened to radio station in not just the San Francisco Bay area but all of Northern California was KGO.

For 27 straight years KGO was always "the number 1" top ratings garnering radio station.

They had a hugely popular, hugely listened to nightly week day political talk format that was totally left defending and right bashing all the way.

Bernie Ward "The Lion Of The Left" was the main prime time commentator.

Ray Taliaferro was the late night political talk show host. 

Others were Pat Thurston, John Rothman, sometimes Gene Burns, Gil Gross, etc.

These were rock hard liberal left political pundits. They had a huge audience with their prime time shows. They helped bolster the super liberal sentiment which really has always been the majority sentiment in San Francisco anyway.

KGO did have contrary political view talk shows and hosts. Far right ones. Bill Wattenburg - the nuclear power can do no wrong guru.

Morning KGO talk show host Ronn Owens became right leaning over the years. I remember once his saying on air that he would put up $1,000,000 dollars ( or some other huge amount) or he would quit his position or whatever, as a bet that we "would" find weapons of mass destruction in Iraq in the media promotion hype supporting the war.

We never found any WMD's and Owens just dropped even mentioning his disingenuous bet.

In the 2,000's number 1 rated KGO was bought by Cumulus radio. A right wing advocating corp.

The first thing they did was to rip apart the left promoting political talk show host format.

Bernie Ward embarrassingly got caught up in a child porn sting.

Ray Taliaferro was kind of marginalized (he seemed to lose his fury, maybe to keep his job?) and simply dumped few years later and not long after kind of lost his marbles ( dementia? ) and disappeared in another part of the country. Maybe even murdered? Not exactly sure. 

Cumulus destroyed the very influencial KGO left promoting political talk show programming. And with it, their ratings!

Last I saw KGO was around 13th in ratings in the SF Bay Area. In other words, a complete non-entity in that market.

What media corporation buys a 27 year straight number 1 rated radio station and purposely destroys it's ratings?

It is the opposite of corporate profit common sense.

KGO was bought to destroy it's political influence in it's hugely populated audience base.

And by the way " nuclear power is as safe as using your toaster" Bill Wattenberg just kind of disappeared after the melt down disaster in Fukushima, Japan."

He's passed since then as well.

 

Edited November 13, 2020 by Joe Bauer

[Mark Stevens]

I read an article earlier, no link sorry, but it stated Trump knows he lost and will not be re-elected, but is putting up the fight for the sake of his supporters.

I think this ties well into what I stated earlier and with Stewart's observations. Unlike most politicians, Trump listens to his base and gives them what they want.

ETA:

I believe this tactic will work quite well from Trump and allow him to run again in 2024 and use this as a rallying point for his supporters. It will be his own "poopoo stabbed in the back myth."

Additional ETA:

lmao @ "poopoo" Seriously, we can't abbreviate National Socialists German Workers Party without censorship? I can understand not wanting to call people a name, but not even being allowed to say it in proper context?

Edited November 12, 2020 by Mark Stevens
ETA

[W. Niederhut]

9 minutes ago, Mark Stevens said:

I read an article earlier, no link sorry, but it stated Trump knows he lost and will not be re-elected, but is putting up the fight for the sake of his supporters.

I think this ties well into what I stated earlier and with Stewart's observations. Unlike most politicians, Trump listens to his base and gives them what they want.

ETA:

I believe this tactic will work quite well from Trump and allow him to run again in 2024 and use this as a rallying point for his supporters. It will be his own "poopoo stabbed in the back myth."

Additional ETA:

lmao @ "poopoo" Seriously, we can't abbreviate National Socialists German Workers Party without censorship? I can understand not wanting to call people a name, but not even being allowed to say it in proper context?

Mark,

     IMO, Trump never does anything "for the sake of others."  It's not in his nature.

      He's a sociopath whose modus operandi is to manipulate others for his own benefit-- for financial gain, power, adulation , sex, etc.

       One of the most disturbing things about Trumpism, for me, has been the inability of so many Americans to recognize and understand the nature and characteristics of Trump's sociopathy-- even in 2020!

     Tom Nichols said it well in his recent Atlantic essay entitled, "A Large Portion of the Electorate Voted for the Sociopath."

      To paraphrase Winston Churchill, "Trump is a fraud, inside of a swindle, wrapped in a scam."

 

[Steve Thomas]

In time, Trump and Trumpism will go the way of the Know Nothing Party.

Steve Thomas

[Andrew Prutsok]

16 hours ago, Robert Wheeler said:

A little later 1824, Jackson vs. John Quincy Adams.

Almost 25 years after the first Logan Act indictment (1802) and last Logan Act indictment (1852) and 192 years before Vice President Joe Biden

...brought up the possibility of using the Logan Act in a meeting with President Barack Obama, FBI Director James Comey, and Deputy Attorney General Sally Yates, according to these newly-declassified notes probably taken on January 4, 2017 by FBI agent Peter Strzok. https://www.independentsentinel.com/biden-came-up-with-the-logan-act-that-was-used-to-frame-nsa-flynn/

 

Neither of the two Logan Act indictments resulted in a conviction.

You are referring of course to William Barr's DOJ altering documents to create a false claim that Biden started any Logan Act investigation into Mike Flynn. Literally altered documents.

[Jeff Carter]

2 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

Bunk.  We've had mail-in voting here in Colorado for several years.   It works very well, and there has been no evidence of voter fraud.

Trump and his RNC goons are simply trying to create a false pretext for contesting the election results-- after sabotaging the USPS deliveries of ballots, and (in Pennsylvania) passing a ridiculous law that prevented the counting of mail-in ballots until 7 A.M. on November 3rd.

As always with Trump, it's a sales scam based on smoke, mirrors, and mass disinformation.

Fair enough. Trump telegraphed a challenge to mail-in votes back in September so I hope extra care was taken to ensure the integrity of the ballots stand up to scrutiny. 

During the summer the Dem-linked Transition Integrity Project analyzed a scenario whereby a tight Trump Electoral College lead on election night gradually withered away through the ensuing counting of mail-in ballots. This was essentially Scenario One of four possible scenarios gamed out by the project. See here starting page 15:

https://secureservercdn.net/192.169.223.13/lz3.b02.myftpupload.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/Preventing_a_Disrupted_Presidential_Election_and_Transition_8-3-20.2.pdf

Looking at the TIP scenarios, it is fairly evident that the anticipated levels of chaos and crisis are not at all in play. And whereas the scenario hinged on a single state, the multiple states which ended up in Biden column similar to the scenario should be too much to overcome. But its interesting that TIP also invokes the disputed 1876 election as a likely template - its not difficult to predict that the legal dispute will continue through the Georgia run-off, which result will inform the strength of bargaining power for the backroom negotiation which will ultimately decide the terms by which Biden is sworn in.

[Mark Stevens]

1 hour ago, W. Niederhut said:

Mark,

     IMO, Trump never does anything "for the sake of others."  It's not in his nature.

      He's a sociopath whose modus operandi is to manipulate others for his own benefit-- for financial gain, power, adulation , sex, etc.

       One of the most disturbing things about Trumpism, for me, has been the inability of so many Americans to recognize and understand the nature and characteristics of Trump's sociopathy-- even in 2020!

     Tom Nichols said it well in his recent Atlantic essay entitled, "A Large Portion of the Electorate Voted for the Sociopath."

      To paraphrase Winston Churchill, "Trump is a fraud, inside of a swindle, wrapped in a scam."

 

I don't really disagree.

I do believe though that in this instance he really is doing it for "the sake of others." Not so much for them, but at the end of the day Trump is tied to his base. If they give up on him, he's done. He has to do actions like this which on the surface are "for the sake of others" but are really cons meant to bolster his own stature. By fighting "for them" it raises his stature in their eyes. It also drives home the stolen election idea (Trump's stabbed in the back myth) and allows him to cultivate this crop of lunacy for eventual harvest in 2024.

Just like chants of "build the wall" (do you think Trump gave 2 xxxxs about a wall?), which his followers very much cared about and believed in. He championed that idea, and they championed him. If he champions this idea and "fights for them" then they very much will continue to champion him and fight for him. At the end of the day it's not for them, it's truly for him but the guise has to exist.

We're basically saying the same thing, he's manipulating others for his benefit. The others have to believe the manipulation though, they have to believe he is fighting for them (and they do).

Edited November 12, 2020 by Mark Stevens

[Joe Bauer]

10 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Joe,

From the movie, The American President, 1995"

"President Andrew Shepherd: [in the White House Press Room] For the last couple of months, Senator Rumson has suggested that being president of this country was, to a certain extent, about character, and although I have not been willing to engage in his attacks on me, I've been here three years and three days, and I can tell you without hesitation: Being president of this country is *entirely* about character. For the record: yes, I am a card-carrying member of the ACLU. But the more important question is, why aren't you, Bob? Now, this is an organization whose sole purpose is to defend the Bill of Rights, so it naturally begs the question: Why would a senator, his party's most powerful spokesman and a candidate for President, choose to reject upholding the Constitution? If you can answer that question, folks, then you're smarter than I am, because I didn't understand it until a few hours ago. America isn't easy. America is advanced citizenship. You gotta want it bad, 'cause it's gonna put up a fight. It's gonna say "You want free speech? Let's see you acknowledge a man whose words make your blood boil, who's standing center stage and advocating at the top of his lungs that which you would spend a lifetime opposing at the top of yours. You want to claim this land as the land of the free? Then the symbol of your country can't just be a flag; the symbol also has to be one of its citizens exercising his right to burn that flag in protest. Show me that, defend that, celebrate that in your classrooms. Then, you can stand up and sing about the "land of the free". I've known Bob Rumson for years, and I've been operating under the assumption that the reason Bob devotes so much time and energy to shouting at the rain was that he simply didn't get it. Well, I was wrong. Bob's problem isn't that he doesn't get it. Bob's problem is that he can't sell it! We have serious problems to solve, and we need serious people to solve them. And whatever your particular problem is, I promise you, Bob Rumson is not the least bit interested in solving it. He is interested in two things and two things only: making you afraid of it and telling you who's to blame for it. That, ladies and gentlemen, is how you win elections. You gather a group of middle-aged, middle-class, middle-income voters who remember with longing an easier time, and you talk to them about family and American values and character. And wave an old photo of the President's girlfriend and you scream about patriotism and you tell them, she's to blame for their lot in life, and you go on television and you call her a whore. Sydney Ellen Wade has done nothing to you, Bob. She has done nothing but put herself through school, represent the interests of public school teachers, and lobby for the safety of our natural resources. You want a character debate, Bob? You better stick with me, 'cause Sydney Ellen Wade is way out of your league."

The next time somebody wants to talk to you about "the good old days", or "Make America Great Again", run like hell, because the next thing that comes out of their mouth is going to be a lie.

Steve Thomas

Astoundingly profound. Great script writing. I watched that film and remember Douglas reciting the speech.

It was inspiring in the film, and in real life, in our current reality politically and socially, it is still just as inspiring and wise and true.

Douglas's speech words were right.

The presidency is indeed about personal character.

Edited November 13, 2020 by Joe Bauer

[W. Niederhut]

43 minutes ago, Jeff Carter said:

Fair enough. Trump telegraphed a challenge to mail-in votes back in September so I hope extra care was taken to ensure the integrity of the ballots stand up to scrutiny. 

During the summer the Dem-linked Transition Integrity Project analyzed a scenario whereby a tight Trump Electoral College lead on election night gradually withered away through the ensuing counting of mail-in ballots. This was essentially Scenario One of four possible scenarios gamed out by the project. See here starting page 15:

https://secureservercdn.net/192.169.223.13/lz3.b02.myftpupload.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/Preventing_a_Disrupted_Presidential_Election_and_Transition_8-3-20.2.pdf

Looking at the TIP scenarios, it is fairly evident that the anticipated levels of chaos and crisis are not at all in play. And whereas the scenario hinged on a single state, the multiple states which ended up in Biden column similar to the scenario should be too much to overcome. But its interesting that TIP also invokes the disputed 1876 election as a likely template - its not difficult to predict that the legal dispute will continue through the Georgia run-off, which result will inform the strength of bargaining power for the backroom negotiation which will ultimately decide the terms by which Biden is sworn in.

Incidentally, the Hayes-Tilden election of 1876 was, ultimately, a disaster for the freed men of the former Confederacy.  As part of the Congressional deal, Hayes agreed to withdraw Federal troops from the South, ushering in the collapse of Reconstruction and 88 years of lynchings and Jim Crow laws.

One hundred and forty-four years later, the U.S. is still struggling with voter suppression in the former slave states and widespread systemic racism in our municipal police departments --a direct legacy of Ante-Bellum slave patrols.

[Andrew Prutsok]

3 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

Incidentally, the Hayes-Tilden election of 1876 was, ultimately, a disaster for the freed men of the former Confederacy.  As part of the Congressional deal, Hayes agreed to withdraw Federal troops from the South, ushering in the collapse of Reconstruction and 88 years of lynchings and Jim Crow laws.

One hundred and forty-four years later, the U.S. is still struggling with voter suppression in the former slave states and widespread systemic racism in our municipal police departments --a direct legacy of Ante-Bellum slave patrols.

We should have hanged every man jack of them. That's how you have to deal with the losing side of a revolution -- try and hang the leaders, financiers, seize their holdings, exile their relatives. If you don't they and their descendants will never stop causing trouble.

[Robert Burrows]

3 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

Robert, do you feel radio and TV media can have that much impact and influence in affecting the political mind sets of Americans on a large scale?

Do you agree with my premise in trying to explain how the majority of white Americans have turned so far right in the last 30 years? Actually from Reagan's first run in 1980...40 years ago?

The left/liberal/Democrat party identifiers have been very successfully demonized in this time frame.

I absolutely agree with your premise.