The inevitable end result of our last 56 years

[Denny Zartman]

@W. Niederhut I second the comments made by @Douglas Caddy above. I am grateful for the posts you and others write in this thread. You all are made of stronger stuff than I. You continuously counter the baseless assertions with facts and cogent analysis. It is appreciated.

[Benjamin Cole]

9 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

Ben,

     As I mentioned earlier on this thread, I voted for Bernie Sanders in the 2016 and 2020 primaries.  On the "Political Compass" rating scale, I score slightly left of center.  

https://www.politicalcompass.org/test

       I have donated money to progressive Democrats during the past 50 years, including Jerry Brown in '76, Gary Hart in '84, and Bernie Sanders since 2016.  I also like Elizabeth Warren, Beto O'Rourke, and AOC.  I have also donated money to environmental activists, and was a member of Ralph Nader's Rhode Island Public Interest Research Group (RIPIRG) in college in the 70s.

      I suspect that I ended up on the FBI No-Fly list after 9/11 because of my involvement in a student movement to end apartheid and free Mandela by urging my college alma mater to divest in South African stocks in the 70s.  Never figured that one out, but the Mexican police pulled me out of a long line of passengers at the Cancun Airport in January of 2002 after scanning my passport. (My wife and daughters were really frightened by that incident.)

     On macro-economic issues I'm a Keynesian, and I believe that Republican, "supply side" tax cuts for the wealthy since the 1980s (2001, 2003, 2017) have been a disaster for the American people-- a "trickle down" plutocratic scam.  Paul Krugman and Thomas Piketty are, generally, on target.

     But my posts here on the Education Forum about American history, economics, science, and current events are based on reality-- documented facts and references.

     Your attempt to dismiss them as "partisan" politics is another false narrative.

      I have often said here on the forum, long before you joined, that JFK was the last POTUS who tried to stand up to the CIA and the MIC.  I was bitterly disappointed after 2008 when Obama retained Robert Gates at the DOD and acquiesced in the phony, post-9/11 Bush/Cheney/Neocon "War on Terror" in Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Libya, and Yemen.

      You may recall that Obama and Bernie Sanders were among the few who had opposed the U.S. invasion of Iraq in 2003.  Are you also aware that your hero, Rupert Murdoch, and Fox News were the most ardent boosters of the Iraq War in 2003?  That Murdoch later boasted about his role in promoting the Iraq War debacle?

W.--

 

I respect your stances on all issues, which overlap with some of mine. 

Believe or not, I too have been a lifelong student of US history, politics and economics.  I even had a book published by Bloomberg Press on Wall Street corruption. 

I probably would be a solid social democrat, but I have lost faith in large-scale US government...which undeniably leaves me in an unpleasant cul de sac.  I lost faith in the Donks too. 

I likely share your views on JFK. 

Odd as it may seem, the most promising movement in recent years has been populism, and anti-globalism. My take, which you may not share, is that open borders for product and labor is a sword impaling the employee classes of developed nations. 

Again, oddly, it was Trump who was the anti-globalist. And the globalists had long knives out for Trump even before he was president. 

Add to that, to maintain the globalist order, the US military has become a  guard service for multinationals, with the attendant bureaucratic apparatus of intelligence agencies. At fantastic expense.

In the real world, history is messy. Trump is a lulu, unstable. He was not an articulate spokesman for anti-globalism, nor honest, nor consistent. 

Just be careful what you read or believe about Trump in the M$M, or why the narrative is so anti-Trump.  In fact, just be careful of M$M narratives. 

(Interesting digression: Why today in the M$M narratives are there are only "Moscow stooges" but no "Beijing puppets" in the US?)

BTW, if you believe money is a fungible commodity (which it is), I could show you how the CCP gave $750k to Joe Biden. The student newspaper at the UPenn was wondering the same thing...long before Biden won the nomination.  The story will never be a M$M narrative...unless someone wants the long knives out for Biden. 

Then you could have a Congressional show trial, a bulletin board showing the money trail, and widespread M$M condemnation of Biden for being a CCP puppet. If the "CCP puppet" idea is ever allowed to become a thing in M$M. 

So it goes....

Add on: Given my views on globalism and the national security state, you can see how difficult it is for me to muster enthusiasm for the Donks.

It was Clinton who got China into the WTO, and then championed NAFTA. 

And the modern-day Donks are entirely aligned with the national security state and allied media. In fact, you now see Donk-aligned publications ridiculing Oliver Stone's JFK:Revisited while the documentary gets fair treatment in populist media. 

The Donks are all-in on state-corporate censorship of the news. 

So it goes....

I am a man without a party. 

You have a party. Be careful what you wish for....

 

 

Edited February 12, 2022 by Benjamin Cole
add on

[David Andrews]

Sure, why not?  Let's encourage an assassination culture from the top down:

'Targeted Assassinations' Coming if Civil War Breaks Out: Adam Kinzinger

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/targeted-assassinations-coming-if-civil-war-breaks-out-adam-kinzinger/ar-AATKbqK?ocid=

 

Let a thousand Forums bloom!

Edited February 12, 2022 by David Andrews

[Benjamin Cole]

3 hours ago, David Andrews said:

Sure, why not?  Let's encourage an assassination culture from the top down:

'Targeted Assassinations' Coming if Civil War Breaks Out: Adam Kinzinger

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/targeted-assassinations-coming-if-civil-war-breaks-out-adam-kinzinger/ar-AATKbqK?ocid=

 

Let a thousand Forums bloom!

Egads. Kinzinger predicts assassinations. 

Ray Dalio, the billionaire founder of the Bridgewater, the world's largest hedge fund has also been talking up a civil war lately. 

https://www.institutionalinvestor.com/article/b1wm2sc8df469v/Ray-Dalio-Says-the-U-S-Is-Headed-Toward-Civil-War

Of course, once you fear a bona fide civil war, then state-corporate censorship and heavy police-state repression become justifiable. 

Dalio is a fan of CCP-style government, which he calls "Confucianism." Thus, investing heavily in China is OK. But the M$M does not define Dalio as "Beijing Stooge."  

I asked a friend on mine in Souther California if he thought a civil war was possible in the US.

His reply: "I dunno. Maybe after the Super Bowl."

You have a few more days, friends. Good luck. 

 

[David Andrews]

4 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

"I dunno. Maybe after the Super Bowl."

 

Priceless Americana.

[Paul Brancato]

12 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

W.--

 

I respect your stances on all issues, which overlap with some of mine. 

Believe or not, I too have been a lifelong student of US history, politics and economics.  I even had a book published by Bloomberg Press on Wall Street corruption. 

I probably would be a solid social democrat, but I have lost faith in large-scale US government...which undeniably leaves me in an unpleasant cul de sac.  I lost faith in the Donks too. 

I likely share your views on JFK. 

Odd as it may seem, the most promising movement in recent years has been populism, and anti-globalism. My take, which you may not share, is that open borders for product and labor is a sword impaling the employee classes of developed nations. 

Again, oddly, it was Trump who was the anti-globalist. And the globalists had long knives out for Trump even before he was president. 

Add to that, to maintain the globalist order, the US military has become a  guard service for multinationals, with the attendant bureaucratic apparatus of intelligence agencies. At fantastic expense.

In the real world, history is messy. Trump is a lulu, unstable. He was not an articulate spokesman for anti-globalism, nor honest, nor consistent. 

Just be careful what you read or believe about Trump in the M$M, or why the narrative is so anti-Trump.  In fact, just be careful of M$M narratives. 

(Interesting digression: Why today in the M$M narratives are there are only "Moscow stooges" but no "Beijing puppets" in the US?)

BTW, if you believe money is a fungible commodity (which it is), I could show you how the CCP gave $750k to Joe Biden. The student newspaper at the UPenn was wondering the same thing...long before Biden won the nomination.  The story will never be a M$M narrative...unless someone wants the long knives out for Biden. 

Then you could have a Congressional show trial, a bulletin board showing the money trail, and widespread M$M condemnation of Biden for being a CCP puppet. If the "CCP puppet" idea is ever allowed to become a thing in M$M. 

So it goes....

Add on: Given my views on globalism and the national security state, you can see how difficult it is for me to muster enthusiasm for the Donks.

It was Clinton who got China into the WTO, and then championed NAFTA. 

And the modern-day Donks are entirely aligned with the national security state and allied media. In fact, you now see Donk-aligned publications ridiculing Oliver Stone's JFK:Revisited while the documentary gets fair treatment in populist media. 

The Donks are all-in on state-corporate censorship of the news. 

So it goes....

I am a man without a party. 

You have a party. Be careful what you wish for....

 

 

I can appreciate your loss of faith in any party as I am a lifelong voter for third party progressives, for Bernie Sanders and others before him. Lately I’ve been voting Democratic because the alternative is so distasteful. For me the main difference between the two parties is that the Democrats are at least partly good progressives who do care. I am not quite as cynical as you. But the center of the Demo party, Pelosi Schumer etc, I’m not at all enthused about. Biden was a poor choice, considered necessary because beating Trump was so all important. But to me the candidate in 16 and 20 should have been Sanders. But the anyone but Trump mood infected even my most progressive friends, and it is ongoing. The polarization on Covid policy, in which Republicans foolishly ignore the serious nature of the disease, and Democrats wear masks while driving and forego human contact, is the direct result. I am cynical enough to believe that there is a corporate deep state that works both openly and in secret to divide the populace. To that end they fund conspiracy theories like QAnon, movements like Black Lives Matter, infiltrate anywhere they perceive a threat to their power, and of course on a more obvious level dictate policy, tell us who to fear. It’s nothing new. Today it’s the billionaire class, before that we had kings etc. The powerful have always protected their interests. 
 

[W. Niederhut]

1 hour ago, Paul Brancato said:

I can appreciate your loss of faith in any party as I am a lifelong voter for third party progressives, for Bernie Sanders and others before him. Lately I’ve been voting Democratic because the alternative is so distasteful. For me the main difference between the two parties is that the Democrats are at least partly good progressives who do care. I am not quite as cynical as you. But the center of the Demo party, Pelosi Schumer etc, I’m not at all enthused about. Biden was a poor choice, considered necessary because beating Trump was so all important. But to me the candidate in 16 and 20 should have been Sanders. But the anyone but Trump mood infected even my most progressive friends, and it is ongoing. The polarization on Covid policy, in which Republicans foolishly ignore the serious nature of the disease, and Democrats wear masks while driving and forego human contact, is the direct result. I am cynical enough to believe that there is a corporate deep state that works both openly and in secret to divide the populace. To that end they fund conspiracy theories like QAnon, movements like Black Lives Matter, infiltrate anywhere they perceive a threat to their power, and of course on a more obvious level dictate policy, tell us who to fear. It’s nothing new. Today it’s the billionaire class, before that we had kings etc. The powerful have always protected their interests. 
 

Well said, Paul.

I, too, was disappointed when Biden and the Wall Street/MIC establishment eked out a win over Bernie Sanders and the progressives in the 2020 Democratic primaries.  Bernie came close to winning, despite being completely ignored by the M$M in 2020.

And, speaking of the billionaire class, here's an interesting graph from Thomas Piketty.

Edited February 12, 2022 by W. Niederhut

[Kirk Gallaway]

15 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

W.--

 

I respect your stances on all issues, which overlap with some of mine. 

Believe or not, I too have been a lifelong student of US history, politics and economics.  I even had a book published by Bloomberg Press on Wall Street corruption. 

I probably would be a solid social democrat, but I have lost faith in large-scale US government...which undeniably leaves me in an unpleasant cul de sac.  I lost faith in the Donks too. 

I likely share your views on JFK. 

Odd as it may seem, the most promising movement in recent years has been populism, and anti-globalism. My take, which you may not share, is that open borders for product and labor is a sword impaling the employee classes of developed nations. 

Again, oddly, it was Trump who was the anti-globalist. And the globalists had long knives out for Trump even before he was president. 

Add to that, to maintain the globalist order, the US military has become a  guard service for multinationals, with the attendant bureaucratic apparatus of intelligence agencies. At fantastic expense.

In the real world, history is messy. Trump is a lulu, unstable. He was not an articulate spokesman for anti-globalism, nor honest, nor consistent. 

Just be careful what you read or believe about Trump in the M$M, or why the narrative is so anti-Trump.  In fact, just be careful of M$M narratives. 

(Interesting digression: Why today in the M$M narratives are there are only "Moscow stooges" but no "Beijing puppets" in the US?)

BTW, if you believe money is a fungible commodity (which it is), I could show you how the CCP gave $750k to Joe Biden. The student newspaper at the UPenn was wondering the same thing...long before Biden won the nomination.  The story will never be a M$M narrative...unless someone wants the long knives out for Biden. 

Then you could have a Congressional show trial, a bulletin board showing the money trail, and widespread M$M condemnation of Biden for being a CCP puppet. If the "CCP puppet" idea is ever allowed to become a thing in M$M. 

So it goes....

Add on: Given my views on globalism and the national security state, you can see how difficult it is for me to muster enthusiasm for the Donks.

It was Clinton who got China into the WTO, and then championed NAFTA. 

And the modern-day Donks are entirely aligned with the national security state and allied media. In fact, you now see Donk-aligned publications ridiculing Oliver Stone's JFK:Revisited while the documentary gets fair treatment in populist media. 

The Donks are all-in on state-corporate censorship of the news. 

So it goes....

I am a man without a party. 

You have a party. Be careful what you wish for....

 

 

Ben, i appreciate your clarification of your evolution. And some good posts about the disillusion with the 2 parties with Paul and W.

But to Ben, what's not sought in the right way is never found. Repetitively identifying the problem as the nss, is very 60'ish, but rather small and picayune. It's one small component of a  corporate state infiltrating all levels of government

So where could any real change ever happen?

 

The idea that the donor class in the Democratic party  is worse than the Republicans  is based on nothing other than some visceral response as being super educated and pro science. But it's the Democrats that are going to pass legislation to curb stock trading among members of Congress and there are several bills , overwhelmingly proposed by Democrats. Some Republicans are now late trying to join the bandwagon. That should tell you volumes. 

 

The battle against the financial elites is not going to be fought by Republicans, even with much publicized disenfranchised Trump followers, because one fact you can't know living in Thailand is that the great majority of the working or "employee class" are Democrats, and it's not even close.

 

As for a third party, Any sort of alliance of the Democratic, non donor base with the libertarians who also want fair government and individual(but in their case not civil) rights could be useful for certain short term gains against government overreach for example, but that tack is too simplistic, there are too many other issues that for that alliance to be anything other than  temporary. The libertarians are too few and simply not going to be able to co opt the worker or employee class, It's as untenable as Saager and Ball, good for a starter but ultimately no real sustainability.

 

I understand there's a certain letdown, for you Ben , those were the glory days of Brexit and the Trump candidacy, a new era of hope where Trump was all knowing and skillfully playing 3D chess with the world elites. None of that materialized because it could never happen.It was based on an illusion.

 

The base of the Democratic party , the people who circulate flyers and go to door, are very largely anti corporate state and turn out strong for candidates like Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren.

 

And the truth is, the Democratic donor class has a lot of liberal guilt. You have no such guilt in the Republican Party. If a younger congressman such as Osoff, who first tried to ban Congressman stock trading decided to make a serious proposal  to take the money put of politics. And the Democrats had a solid margin in both houses. Pelosi would have to fold just as she appears to be folding only a month after defending Congressional stock trading. If the money's out of politics, the corporate state starts to die. If a national referendum for serious campaign finance reform was to be put up, you'd see the most financed campaign in history, and we'd see who enemies of the people truly are.

 If you make legislation to get rid of the donor class, and are successful, all that's left of the Dem donor class are guilty liberals, the more vehement their protest the more hypocritical they look, and they know that.

 

 

 But that requires some political will or effort. I haven't seen such an effort in this country since the anti Viet Nam War movement. It was dogged and persistent.  Even when people such as I got disillusioned with it, more people just kept coming in. Rulers of all countries can't hope to hold power waging an unpopular war. How would resistance from the wealthy elites of either party and the corporate state manifest?, with tanks?  No way! They don't have any numbers. In the final analysis, their  lifestyles aren't really threatened either way.

 

In the final analysis, it just gets down to, "How serious are you? Do you have the knowledge to correctly identify your oppressors? Or will it come down to a great quote by George Harrison.

"We really get the level of politicians we deserve."

 

****

 

*****

[W. Niederhut]

It's a new concept in psy ops... 🤣

New Zealand plays Barry Manilow to repel parliament protesters

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-60362529

 

[Benjamin Cole]

2 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

It's a new concept in psy ops... 🤣

New Zealand plays Barry Manilow to repel parliament protesters

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-60362529

 

I would be defeated by the second bar. 

[Benjamin Cole]

8 hours ago, Kirk Gallaway said:

Ben, i appreciate your clarification of your evolution. And some good posts about the disillusion with the 2 parties with Paul and W.

But to Ben, what's not sought in the right way is never found. Repetitively identifying the problem as the nss, is very 60'ish, but rather small and picayune. It's one small component of a  corporate state infiltrating all levels of government

So where could any real change ever happen?

 

The idea that the donor class in the Democratic party  is worse than the Republicans  is based on nothing other than some visceral response as being super educated and pro science. But it's the Democrats that are going to pass legislation to curb stock trading among members of Congress and there are several bills , overwhelmingly proposed by Democrats. Some Republicans are now late trying to join the bandwagon. That should tell you volumes. 

 

The battle against the financial elites is not going to be fought by Republicans, even with much publicized disenfranchised Trump followers, because one fact you can't know living in Thailand is that the great majority of the working or "employee class" are Democrats, and it's not even close.

 

As for a third party, Any sort of alliance of the Democratic, non donor base with the libertarians who also want fair government and individual(but in their case not civil) rights could be useful for certain short term gains against government overreach for example, but that tack is too simplistic, there are too many other issues that for that alliance to be anything other than  temporary. The libertarians are too few and simply not going to be able to co opt the worker or employee class, It's as untenable as Saager and Ball, good for a starter but ultimately no real sustainability.

 

I understand there's a certain letdown, for you Ben , those were the glory days of Brexit and the Trump candidacy, a new era of hope where Trump was all knowing and skillfully playing 3D chess with the world elites. None of that materialized because it could never happen.It was based on an illusion.

 

The base of the Democratic party , the people who circulate flyers and go to door, are very largely anti corporate state and turn out strong for candidates like Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren.

 

And the truth is, the Democratic donor class has a lot of liberal guilt. You have no such guilt in the Republican Party. If a younger congressman such as Osoff, who first tried to ban Congressman stock trading decided to make a serious proposal  to take the money put of politics. And the Democrats had a solid margin in both houses. Pelosi would have to fold just as she appears to be folding only a month after defending Congressional stock trading. If the money's out of politics, the corporate state starts to die. If a national referendum for serious campaign finance reform was to be put up, you'd see the most financed campaign in history, and we'd see who enemies of the people truly are.

 If you make legislation to get rid of the donor class, and are successful, all that's left of the Dem donor class are guilty liberals, the more vehement their protest the more hypocritical they look, and they know that.

 

 

 But that requires some political will or effort. I haven't seen such an effort in this country since the anti Viet Nam War movement. It was dogged and persistent.  Even when people such as I got disillusioned with it, more people just kept coming in. Rulers of all countries can't hope to hold power waging an unpopular war. How would resistance from the wealthy elites of either party and the corporate state manifest?, with tanks?  No way! They don't have any numbers. In the final analysis, their  lifestyles aren't really threatened either way.

 

In the final analysis, it just gets down to, "How serious are you? Do you have the knowledge to correctly identify your oppressors? Or will it come down to a great quote by George Harrison.

"We really get the level of politicians we deserve."

 

****

 

*****

Well..not so serious anymore. Just watching the passing parade. 

[Benjamin Cole]

10 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

I can appreciate your loss of faith in any party as I am a lifelong voter for third party progressives, for Bernie Sanders and others before him. Lately I’ve been voting Democratic because the alternative is so distasteful. For me the main difference between the two parties is that the Democrats are at least partly good progressives who do care. I am not quite as cynical as you. But the center of the Demo party, Pelosi Schumer etc, I’m not at all enthused about. Biden was a poor choice, considered necessary because beating Trump was so all important. But to me the candidate in 16 and 20 should have been Sanders. But the anyone but Trump mood infected even my most progressive friends, and it is ongoing. The polarization on Covid policy, in which Republicans foolishly ignore the serious nature of the disease, and Democrats wear masks while driving and forego human contact, is the direct result. I am cynical enough to believe that there is a corporate deep state that works both openly and in secret to divide the populace. To that end they fund conspiracy theories like QAnon, movements like Black Lives Matter, infiltrate anywhere they perceive a threat to their power, and of course on a more obvious level dictate policy, tell us who to fear. It’s nothing new. Today it’s the billionaire class, before that we had kings etc. The powerful have always protected their interests. 
 

Paul B-

Well, we agree on much. 

Egads, in 1960 Detroit was the richest city on the planet and autoworkers made good money. 

What kind of country produces a Detroit in 1960 and then a Detroit in 2020? 

[Ron Bulman]

Respite on a Saturday night?  I laughed out loud in the Leno video portion about Newt Gingrich naked from the waist down.

A memory of JFK Jr. offers respite from today's stress-filled politics (msn.com)

Read the article too.  Funny and personal story there.

 

 

[Benjamin Cole]

OK, get out your brickbats, but....

1X

BeyondWords

"First on Fox: Lawyers for the Clinton campaign paid a technology company to "infiltrate" servers belonging to Trump Tower, and later the White House, in order to establish an "inference" and "narrative" to bring to government agencies linking Donald Trump to Russia, a filing from Special Counsel John Durham says.

Durham filed a motion on Feb. 11 focused on potential conflicts of interest related to the representation of former Clinton campaign lawyer Michael Sussman, who has been charged with making a false statement to a federal agent. Sussman has pleaded not guilty.

---30---

OK, that is Durham talking, not me. He says the Clinton campaign paid a tech company to "infiltrate" servers at Trump Tower. The Fox paragraph is so badly written, it is not clear what happened next. 

If the Clinton campaign was spying, or electronic eavesdropping or e-wiretapping the Trumps, then I think a crime has been committed. 

One doesn't have to be a Trumper to think that private-sector spying on other people's e-mails or communications is criminal. 

Durham is respected as a straight shooter, apolitical. He looks like a modern-day "Javert" to me, judging from his photo. 

As I always say, Sussman, or anybody else, should be strictly regarded as innocent until and if he is proven guilty in a court of law. 

Durham may be on a witch-hunt, or he may be onto something sinister. 

 

 

[Matt Allison]

I have to take anything coming out of the Durham investigation with a grain of salt at this point. He's been at it for a really long time and hasn't gotten any indictments. Kinda reminds of the Whitewater fishing expedition in the 90s.

 

That JFK Jr interview was great. He was an absolute gem. One thing the QAnon folks got right was their worship of him.