The inevitable end result of our last 56 years

[Paul Brancato]

Mariupol may be Putin’s main objective. After the 2014 revolution, or coup - take your pick, when Donetsk was taken over by Separatists, Mariupol became the Ukranian government Administrative Center in eastern Ukraine . Since 2014, the demographics have changed in Mariupol. It was nearly half ethnically Russian then, now it’s 1/3. It might be that the ongoing regional conflict has driven Russians out. If Putin’s military goal is to create an East and west Ukraine he needs Mariupol. Mariupol is, probably not coincidentally, the base of the Azov Batallion, a group that as recently as Jan 2022 was still written about as neo-poopoo in Time, Newsweek etc. that’s because it is, though after 2014 it was incorporated into the Ukrainian National Guard. It’s clear that Ukraine, fledgling Democracy that it is, has strong Nationalist roots that are unfriendly to Russians, and also people of color, gays etc. Nationalism wears two faces in Ukraine, but we only pay attention to one now, because Putin has invaded. But Azov, and Ukrainian right wing nationalist ideology is no joke. 
it’s amazing to me how little news filtered to us here between 2014 and 2022 about the conflict between the breakaway republics and Ukrainian forces. I finally dug out a UN report talking about the conflict and the ugliness on both sides, written I think around 2016. It’s easy to point to Russia as the instigator of the eastern Ukraine rebellion, and just as easy to point to the US during the Maidan revolution, or coup. I think the former was a reaction to the latter. 

Edited March 13, 2022 by Paul Brancato

[W. Niederhut]

Paul,

    If you're concerned about fascism and homophobia in the former Soviet Union, check out Putin and his KGB Moscow Patriarch "Tobacco" Kyril Gundyayev.  Putin's fascist thugs have been routinely beating up homosexuals in the Russian Federation in recent years.

    In fact, Kyril just blamed Putin's war crimes in Ukraine on gay pride parades... 🤥

    Key word:  Alexander Dugin

Russian Church Leader Appears to Blame Gay Pride Parades for Ukraine War

https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2022/03/07/russian-church-leader-appears-to-blame-gay-pride-parades-for-ukraine-war-a76803

Edited March 13, 2022 by W. Niederhut

[Bob Ness]

9 hours ago, Jeff Carter said:

 

 

re: Ukraine

Biden’s “war aims” were realized on the first weekend when Germany shelved Nordstream 2 and SWIFT cutoffs were announced. A Cold War style bifurcation between Europe and Russia (or more broadly NATO/Russia) has been achieved. The intent, presumably, is to create economic pressures which will result in a Putin regime-change, but also to stall the westward momentum of China’s Belt-Road Initiative. However, despite reference to the “international community”, those imposing economic sanctions directed at Russia have been limited to NATO plus Australia/New Zealand and Japan. Also, there has been no explanation of why the EU went further and cut off Russia’s Central bank, let alone is it clear on whose initiative. Not only did this amount to arriving at the top of the escalation ladder, on the first weekend, it was also engaged amidst an outpouring of emotion, which is not the best fit for leadership during a serious crisis. Furthermore, the fallout of this extreme step is unpredictable and may have far-reaching consequences for the structure of the world economy moving forward, consequences which may prove extremely negative for Europe/USA (i.e. reserve currency).

Militarily, Russia has essentially controlled the battle-space since the first week - which is why there could be a seemingly stalled convoy which remains intact. Ukraine’s army is essentially surrounded in the east and in several major cities. As seen previously in Syria, the defence forces have embedded themselves into urban environments, and are generating atrocity stories for the west’s media in hopes of stoking direct NATO involvement i.e. with a “No Fly Zone”. Like Syria, such a zone will not happen - in part because it would involve direct combat between nuclear powers which could spiral unaccountably into a world disaster, but also because it is likely NATO would fail in such attempt as the Russians have superior missile technology and EW capabilities.

This situation certainly highlights the fact that the detente concepts and policies of FDR and JFK are far far removed from the strategies currently employed. As can be seen in this thread, direct repudiations of what were once understood as sensible and peaceful ways forward, as articulated in JFK’s American University speech, have taken hold via sharp hateful expressions directed at the same identified adversaries as in the previous Cold War. A massive step backwards, no?

Here he is celebrating the slaughter of innocents right on queue!! And blaming everyone else other than Putin!

You gotta be stoked they're burning up civilians. You are so stupid - "defense forces"? Do you mean inhabitants? Like the people who live there? Has nothing to do with Russians does it Jeff?

What kind of meat puppet are you?

 

[Kirk Gallaway]

5 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

Jeff,

Do you also share Vlad Putin's openly professed contempt for liberal democracy?

The truth is that Putin re-established a dictatorial, fascist police state in the Russian Federation after 2000.  He merely posed as a democratically-minded former KGB officer when he took over from Yeltsin.  It was an act.

Rather than pursuing a peaceful path toward democracy and constructive participation in the EU after 2000, Putin chose personal power, FSB-enforced autocracy, greed, and corruption.

And he harbors an old Soviet/KGB vendetta toward the prosperous democracies of the West-- probably festering since his years with the KGB in Dresden.

The RF is corrupt to the core-- an FSB-controlled, oligarchic kleptocracy.  It's a mere transmutation of the Soviet police state that suckled Vlad Putin in his KGB career.

Former KGB Lt. Col. Putin has murdered and imprisoned journalists and opposition politicians. 

Putin's puppet Yanukovych imprisoned the former Ukrainian Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko in 2011.  She was only released from prison after the Ukrainian people finally kicked Yanukovych out of the country in 2014.

NATO expanded because the formerly oppressed Soviet bloc countries didn't want to be part of Putin's fascist, neo-Soviet police state.  Why would they?

Does anyone really believe that NATO posed an offensive military threat to the post-Soviet Russian Federation?  The notion is ludicrous.

And Putin, alone, is responsible for what is happening in Ukraine right now.  He's a war criminal.

 

Well put W.!     Jeff's gone from being our forum "man inside Putin's head"  assuring us  first there would be no invasion, and now has   made his peace with the new reality and is now a pillaging Putin apologist. Jim said he expected Putin to take the eastern provinces and get away with it, as if that might be just anyway. . 

But what I never hear from Jeff, Jim or Oliver Stone  is this precise point. There's no recognition of the dictatorial fascist state that Putin has lead Russia  to. Somehow that's  should be recognized as just part of their historical DNA and are not to be be judged by western norms. There's never any mention of the oligarchs or a kleptocracy or of any real matters of Russian domestic policy,  or any disgust about the treatment of their own people. Similarly with Stones 4 hour interview there's a passing mention to oligarchs where Putin in essence talks of them in the past tense, like it's a problem that's been overcome. But also never a mention of a kleptocracy or civil rights, or the imprisoning of journalists. Russia is just used as a foreign policy template to highlight U.S. imperialist policies.

Similarly it's  as if any concept of a free speech open society as something to aspire, is an almost silly appurtenance of an  ethnocentric West. And somehow any of these questions are not really relevant  consideration to the growth of Russia, maturing into a modern civilized society.

I already posted this, but to those who've never seen it, this should tell you how decisions are made in Putin's Russia. He's 40 feet away from all his advisors who are standing up in row facing him. He's just arrogantly displaying his boorish command. 

 

Edited March 13, 2022 by Kirk Gallaway

[Benjamin Cole]

Putin says a No Fly Zone over Ukraine is a provocation. 

Some US citizens, and Biden, echo that a No Fy Zone over Ukraine is a provocation.

So...who are the Moscow stooges and Putin puppets?  

Funny what becomes a M$M narrative or meme and what does not.  

[Sandy Larsen]

2 hours ago, Bob Ness said:

Here [Jeff] is celebrating the slaughter of innocents right on queue!! And blaming everyone else other than Putin!

You gotta be stoked they're burning up civilians. You are so stupid - "defense forces"? Do you mean inhabitants? Like the people who live there? Has nothing to do with Russians does it Jeff?

What kind of meat puppet are you?

 

Jeff sounds like a freakin' Putin cheerleader.

 

Edited March 13, 2022 by Sandy Larsen

[Bob Ness]

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Jeff sounds like a freakin' Putin cheerleader.

 

Worse. The celebration of the bayoneting of civilians in support of his theoretical whimsies is sick. At this point evidence is meaningless to him no matter how stark and obvious. IOW the civilians being bombed are to blame. They're probably bombing themselves in fact by his reasoning.

Edited March 13, 2022 by Bob Ness

[W. Niederhut]

      Princeton historian Stephen Kotkin pointedly disagrees with the late George F. Kennan and David Mearsheimer's opinions that NATO expansion is responsible for Russian Federation aggression (including Putin's invasion of Ukraine.)

 https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/stephen-kotkin-putin-russia-ukraine-stalin

March 11, 2022   

Excerpt

Remnick: We’ve been hearing voices both past and present saying that the reason for what has happened is, as George Kennan put it, the strategic blunder of the eastward expansion of NATO. The great-power realist-school historian John Mearsheimer insists that a great deal of the blame for what we’re witnessing must go to the United States. I thought we’d begin with your analysis of that argument.

Kotkin: I have only the greatest respect for George Kennan. John Mearsheimer is a giant of a scholar. But I respectfully disagree. The problem with their argument is that it assumes that, had NATO not expanded, Russia wouldn’t be the same or very likely close to what it is today. What we have today in Russia is not some kind of surprise. It’s not some kind of deviation from a historical pattern. Way before NATO existed—in the nineteenth century—Russia looked like this: it had an autocrat. It had repression. It had militarism. It had suspicion of foreigners and the West. This is a Russia that we know, and it’s not a Russia that arrived yesterday or in the nineteen-nineties. It’s not a response to the actions of the West. There are internal processes in Russia that account for where we are today.

I would even go further. I would say that NATO expansion has put us in a better place to deal with this historical pattern in Russia that we’re seeing again today. Where would we be now if Poland or the Baltic states were not in NATO? They would be in the same limbo, in the same world that Ukraine is in. In fact, Poland’s membership in NATO stiffened NATO’s spine. Unlike some of the other NATO countries, Poland has contested Russia many times over. In fact, you can argue that Russia broke its teeth twice on Poland: first in the nineteenth century, leading up to the twentieth century, and again at the end of the Soviet Union, with Solidarity. So George Kennan was an unbelievably important scholar and practitioner—the greatest Russia expert who ever lived—but I just don’t think blaming the West is the right analysis for where we are.

Edited March 13, 2022 by W. Niederhut

[Matt Allison]

Who the hell could possibly blame any country for wanting to join NATO??? LOL

Everyone knew Putin was a killer, now we know he's genocidal maniac.

[Steve Thomas]

When you look in the Merriam-Webster dictionary for the definition of gibberish, this is what you will find:

Trump cites 'a lot of love' as reason Putin wants to 'make his country larger'

By David Edwards March 13, 2022

https://www.rawstory.com/trump-putin-love/

 

"He's got a big ego," Trump explained. "I think what's going on now is hard. I understand he's gotten rid of a lot of his generals."

“They wanted to rebuild the Soviet Union," he continued. "That’s what this is all about to a large extent. And then you say, what’s the purpose of this? They had a country. You could see it was a country where there was a lot of love and we’re doing it because, you know, somebody wants to make his country larger or he wants to put it back the way it was when actually it didn’t work very well.”

Steve Thomas

[W. Niederhut]

Interesting article at NYT this morning about the rise and fall of Russia Today.

I'm probably not the only forum member around here who has tended to read Russia Today.

Yes, it promoted Kremlin disinformazia, but It has also been a rare source of information about the crimes and peccadilloes of the U.S. Deep State-- things that we don't read about in our M$M.

What It Was Like to Work for Russian State Television

Until RT America ended abruptly, life as a journalist there was “actually so normal.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/12/business/rt-america-russian-tv.html

[Bob Ness]

2 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

      Princeton historian Stephen Kotkin pointedly disagrees with the late George F. Kennan and David Mearsheimer's opinions that NATO expansion is responsible for Russian Federation aggression (including Putin's invasion of Ukraine.)

 https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/stephen-kotkin-putin-russia-ukraine-stalin

March 11, 2022   

Excerpt

Remnick: We’ve been hearing voices both past and present saying that the reason for what has happened is, as George Kennan put it, the strategic blunder of the eastward expansion of NATO. The great-power realist-school historian John Mearsheimer insists that a great deal of the blame for what we’re witnessing must go to the United States. I thought we’d begin with your analysis of that argument.

Kotkin: I have only the greatest respect for George Kennan. John Mearsheimer is a giant of a scholar. But I respectfully disagree. The problem with their argument is that it assumes that, had NATO not expanded, Russia wouldn’t be the same or very likely close to what it is today. What we have today in Russia is not some kind of surprise. It’s not some kind of deviation from a historical pattern. Way before NATO existed—in the nineteenth century—Russia looked like this: it had an autocrat. It had repression. It had militarism. It had suspicion of foreigners and the West. This is a Russia that we know, and it’s not a Russia that arrived yesterday or in the nineteen-nineties. It’s not a response to the actions of the West. There are internal processes in Russia that account for where we are today.

I would even go further. I would say that NATO expansion has put us in a better place to deal with this historical pattern in Russia that we’re seeing again today. Where would we be now if Poland or the Baltic states were not in NATO? They would be in the same limbo, in the same world that Ukraine is in. In fact, Poland’s membership in NATO stiffened NATO’s spine. Unlike some of the other NATO countries, Poland has contested Russia many times over. In fact, you can argue that Russia broke its teeth twice on Poland: first in the nineteenth century, leading up to the twentieth century, and again at the end of the Soviet Union, with Solidarity. So George Kennan was an unbelievably important scholar and practitioner—the greatest Russia expert who ever lived—but I just don’t think blaming the West is the right analysis for where we are.

Exactly. Mearsheimer pretends this just showed up on the door but the fact is this kind of crap has been going on for centuries and didn't stop until NATO foreclosed on it until now. The Europeans tried to drag us into the Russo-Poland war as well if my memory serves.

Mearsheimer is supposed to be some kind of genius but this obvious point escapes him. Makes you wonder.

[Steve Thomas]

3 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

 

Excerpt

What we have today in Russia is not some kind of surprise. It’s not some kind of deviation from a historical pattern. Way before NATO existed—in the nineteenth century—Russia looked like this: it had an autocrat. It had repression. It had militarism. It had suspicion of foreigners and the West. This is a Russia that we know, and it’s not a Russia that arrived yesterday or in the nineteen-nineties. It’s not a response to the actions of the West. There are internal processes in Russia that account for where we are today.

 

According to EurasiaNet, https://eurasianet.org/turkey-and-russia-history-fuels-rancor

Russia and Turkey have fought 12 wars in the last 500 years.

Steve Thomas

[Steve Thomas]

'What happened to her?': Fox's Bartiromo buried for claim Biden administration sees Putin as a 'partner'

By Tom Boggioni March 13, 2022

https://www.rawstory.com/maria-bartiromo-2656949825/

“Fox News host Maria Bartiromo was raked over the coals on Sunday after making a wild claim on-air that President Joe Biden's administration secretly sees Russian President Vladimir Putin as a partner.

Addressing her audience, the Fox host explained, "Some people have told me over the weekend that they feel that, at the end of the day, this administration does not see Putin as the enemy, they see him as a partner on many issues. They see him as a partner on climate change. They see him as a partner on the Iran deal."

She then added, "When is this administration going to get serious and tell Vladimir Putin that we are done?"”

 

Some people have told me over the weekend that Maria Bartiromo is an idiot.

Steve Thomas

[Benjamin Cole]

7 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

Interesting article at NYT this morning about the rise and fall of Russia Today.

I'm probably not the only forum member around here who has tended to read Russia Today.

Yes, it promoted Kremlin disinformazia, but It has also been a rare source of information about the crimes and peccadilloes of the U.S. Deep State-- things that we don't read about in our M$M.

What It Was Like to Work for Russian State Television

Until RT America ended abruptly, life as a journalist there was “actually so normal.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/12/business/rt-america-russian-tv.html

I agree. It is sad that the M$M will not do the job that alternative media has to do, and unfortunately that included RT for a while, which did some good stories amid the propaganda. 

Then there are stories that get buried as they not PC at the time. Bio-labs in Ukraine? With dangerous pathogens? Why?

I happen to be hawkish on Ukraine, and would prefer going to No Fly Zones. That does not mean the bio-lab story is fake news. 

I guess the Biden Administration knew about the bio-labs, and kept them going. Trump probably did too, and probably Obama. 

Biden has been on his back foot all along on Ukraine, and the result is a horrible diplomatic, military and humanitarian catastrophe. 

This does not absolve Putin at all. I hope Putin is toppled yesterday.