Bob Ness Posted March 12, 2022 Share Posted March 12, 2022 51 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said: Biden appears feeble, woefully unprepared, unimaginative. Whatever one says, what has happened to Ukraine is a diplomatic and military failure. Happened on Biden's watch. No. Biden's primary responsibility is the people in the United States, not Ukraine. He has acted in accordance with that. The administration unveiled intelligence well ahead of the invasion warning Zelensky about Putin's plans and those warnings were brushed off, at least publicly. Zelensky's downplaying of the threat allowed the people there to dismiss our warnings, at least to some degree, and played into the propaganda Putin feeds to his people while they were still reachable. Biden has successfully garnered world wide support for sanctions which will plummet Russia into a catastrophic financial failure and result in his removal. It's the Russian way. Engaging Putin in an armed conflict could force him into a nuclear exchange as his conventional forces would be anhiliated. If you need someone to blame for not putting a leash on that barbarian call on China. It happened on Xi's watch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjamin Cole Posted March 12, 2022 Share Posted March 12, 2022 3 hours ago, Bob Ness said: No. Biden's primary responsibility is the people in the United States, not Ukraine. He has acted in accordance with that. The administration unveiled intelligence well ahead of the invasion warning Zelensky about Putin's plans and those warnings were brushed off, at least publicly. Zelensky's downplaying of the threat allowed the people there to dismiss our warnings, at least to some degree, and played into the propaganda Putin feeds to his people while they were still reachable. Biden has successfully garnered world wide support for sanctions which will plummet Russia into a catastrophic financial failure and result in his removal. It's the Russian way. Engaging Putin in an armed conflict could force him into a nuclear exchange as his conventional forces would be anhiliated. If you need someone to blame for not putting a leash on that barbarian call on China. It happened on Xi's watch. I share your sentiments regarding Xi and the CCP. Spooky thought: US globalists are deep into bed with the CCP. Apple might as well put five-star Red Flag of China on their gear. BTW, look at who funded Penn Biden Center for Diplomacy and Global Engagement, at U Pennsylvania. The CCP. If you consider money a fungible commodity, then Biden made some serious money too. I stand by my assessment that Ukraine has been a huge US diplomatic and military failure, given the horrid results we are seeing unfold. I hope you are correct, and Putin has misjudged circumstances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Thomas Posted March 12, 2022 Share Posted March 12, 2022 A 'Freedom Convoy' we can all support: Send the truckers to Russia! by Kirk Swearingen, Salon March 12, 2022 https://www.rawstory.com/trucker-2656938753/ “I'm talking about the gun-toting, flagpole-wielding insurrectionists, those faux-truckers with their faux demands for faux freedom from wearing masks they weren't wearing anyway — at least not over their noses — and all those folks who want to push their religious beliefs or unbelievably idiotic conspiracy theories on the rest of us, the reasonably educated "elite." “ Maybe we can get a crowdsource funding thing going. Steve Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Carter Posted March 12, 2022 Share Posted March 12, 2022 re: Ukraine Biden’s “war aims” were realized on the first weekend when Germany shelved Nordstream 2 and SWIFT cutoffs were announced. A Cold War style bifurcation between Europe and Russia (or more broadly NATO/Russia) has been achieved. The intent, presumably, is to create economic pressures which will result in a Putin regime-change, but also to stall the westward momentum of China’s Belt-Road Initiative. However, despite reference to the “international community”, those imposing economic sanctions directed at Russia have been limited to NATO plus Australia/New Zealand and Japan. Also, there has been no explanation of why the EU went further and cut off Russia’s Central bank, let alone is it clear on whose initiative. Not only did this amount to arriving at the top of the escalation ladder, on the first weekend, it was also engaged amidst an outpouring of emotion, which is not the best fit for leadership during a serious crisis. Furthermore, the fallout of this extreme step is unpredictable and may have far-reaching consequences for the structure of the world economy moving forward, consequences which may prove extremely negative for Europe/USA (i.e. reserve currency). Militarily, Russia has essentially controlled the battle-space since the first week - which is why there could be a seemingly stalled convoy which remains intact. Ukraine’s army is essentially surrounded in the east and in several major cities. As seen previously in Syria, the defence forces have embedded themselves into urban environments, and are generating atrocity stories for the west’s media in hopes of stoking direct NATO involvement i.e. with a “No Fly Zone”. Like Syria, such a zone will not happen - in part because it would involve direct combat between nuclear powers which could spiral unaccountably into a world disaster, but also because it is likely NATO would fail in such attempt as the Russians have superior missile technology and EW capabilities. This situation certainly highlights the fact that the detente concepts and policies of FDR and JFK are far far removed from the strategies currently employed. As can be seen in this thread, direct repudiations of what were once understood as sensible and peaceful ways forward, as articulated in JFK’s American University speech, have taken hold via sharp hateful expressions directed at the same identified adversaries as in the previous Cold War. A massive step backwards, no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Bulman Posted March 12, 2022 Share Posted March 12, 2022 'I don’t know how we survived': Family shot by Russian soldiers fearful of Nazis (msn.com) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W. Niederhut Posted March 12, 2022 Share Posted March 12, 2022 41 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said: 'I don’t know how we survived': Family shot by Russian soldiers fearful of Nazis (msn.com) Ron, Are you "generating atrocity stories" to perpetuate an unhelpful "outpouring of emotion" in the West? As Jeff said, we should be more enlightened about "adopting the detente policies" of FDR and JFK, instead of being morally outraged about a dictator committing war crimes to establish a totalitarian police state in Kyiv. Putin cannot make a bigger neo-Soviet omelette without breaking some Ukrainian eggs. In other words, nothing to see here, Comrade Bulmanski. Move along now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Allison Posted March 12, 2022 Share Posted March 12, 2022 Pretty gross to try to namecheck JFK in this, Jeff. Kennedy would have been just as disgusted by Putin's genocidal war crimes as every other normal human is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Carter Posted March 12, 2022 Share Posted March 12, 2022 Under more enlightened leadership - less beholden to military-industrial concerns or neo-conservative ideology - none of these events would be occurring. The primary sources re: NATO expansion and 2014 Ukraine coup clearly demonstrate this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W. Niederhut Posted March 12, 2022 Share Posted March 12, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Jeff Carter said: Under more enlightened leadership - less beholden to military-industrial concerns or neo-conservative ideology - none of these events would be occurring. The primary sources re: NATO expansion and 2014 Ukraine coup clearly demonstrate this. Jeff, Do you also share Vlad Putin's openly professed contempt for liberal democracy? The truth is that Putin re-established a dictatorial, fascist police state in the Russian Federation after 2000. He merely posed as a democratically-minded former KGB officer when he took over from Yeltsin. It was an act. Rather than pursuing a peaceful path toward democracy and constructive participation in the EU after 2000, Putin chose personal power, FSB-enforced autocracy, greed, and corruption. And he harbors an old Soviet/KGB vendetta toward the prosperous democracies of the West-- probably festering since his years with the KGB in Dresden. The RF is corrupt to the core-- an FSB-controlled, oligarchic kleptocracy. It's a mere transmutation of the Soviet police state that suckled Vlad Putin in his KGB career. Former KGB Lt. Col. Putin has murdered and imprisoned journalists and opposition politicians. Putin's puppet Yanukovych imprisoned the former Ukrainian Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko in 2011. She was only released from prison after the Ukrainian people finally kicked Yanukovych out of the country in 2014. NATO expanded because the formerly oppressed Soviet bloc countries didn't want to be part of Putin's fascist, neo-Soviet police state. Why would they? Does anyone really believe that NATO posed an offensive military threat to the post-Soviet Russian Federation? The notion is ludicrous. And Putin, alone, is responsible for what is happening in Ukraine right now. He's a war criminal. Edited March 12, 2022 by W. Niederhut Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjamin Cole Posted March 13, 2022 Share Posted March 13, 2022 4 hours ago, Jeff Carter said: re: Ukraine Biden’s “war aims” were realized on the first weekend when Germany shelved Nordstream 2 and SWIFT cutoffs were announced. A Cold War style bifurcation between Europe and Russia (or more broadly NATO/Russia) has been achieved. The intent, presumably, is to create economic pressures which will result in a Putin regime-change, but also to stall the westward momentum of China’s Belt-Road Initiative. However, despite reference to the “international community”, those imposing economic sanctions directed at Russia have been limited to NATO plus Australia/New Zealand and Japan. Also, there has been no explanation of why the EU went further and cut off Russia’s Central bank, let alone is it clear on whose initiative. Not only did this amount to arriving at the top of the escalation ladder, on the first weekend, it was also engaged amidst an outpouring of emotion, which is not the best fit for leadership during a serious crisis. Furthermore, the fallout of this extreme step is unpredictable and may have far-reaching consequences for the structure of the world economy moving forward, consequences which may prove extremely negative for Europe/USA (i.e. reserve currency). Militarily, Russia has essentially controlled the battle-space since the first week - which is why there could be a seemingly stalled convoy which remains intact. Ukraine’s army is essentially surrounded in the east and in several major cities. As seen previously in Syria, the defence forces have embedded themselves into urban environments, and are generating atrocity stories for the west’s media in hopes of stoking direct NATO involvement i.e. with a “No Fly Zone”. Like Syria, such a zone will not happen - in part because it would involve direct combat between nuclear powers which could spiral unaccountably into a world disaster, but also because it is likely NATO would fail in such attempt as the Russians have superior missile technology and EW capabilities. This situation certainly highlights the fact that the detente concepts and policies of FDR and JFK are far far removed from the strategies currently employed. As can be seen in this thread, direct repudiations of what were once understood as sensible and peaceful ways forward, as articulated in JFK’s American University speech, have taken hold via sharp hateful expressions directed at the same identified adversaries as in the previous Cold War. A massive step backwards, no? Jeff C- I understand there are historical reasons why Russians fear attack from the West (see WWII, in which 10% of Russian population died), and also that they believe Ukraine and Russia should be more-or-less one political entity. And perhaps the West should have been more diplomatic regarding what happened in Ukraine. The mucking around in Ukraine of Biden and son during the Obama years, and the rearrangement of leadership there under Biden/Obama was provocative. Incidentally, the Bidens help loot Ukraine. That said, IMHO when the Russian armored column went into Ukraine...whatever moral ground Putin had was lost. Seriously, no one can invade Russia again as they do have nukes. The "fear of the West" argument is overdone. The Ukrainians, unlike the Crimeans, do not appear to want to be a part of Russia. The result of Putin's armored columns has been a humanitarian disaster, and a humbling failure for Biden diplomatic and military policies. Interestingly, the multinationalist-globalists (who largely run US foreign, military and trade policies) seemed inclined to let Putin have Ukraine. Ergo, we saw the posturing pre-invasion by Biden that the US would not get seriously involved. A green light to Putin. There is not that much business to be had in Ukraine, and the globalists could do business with Putin. They do business with Xi. But Ukrainian resistance was remarkable, the globalists lost control of the narrative, having demonized Putin so much in prior years (part of the anti-Trump narrative). That brings us to today. Biden's leadership has led the US into a dead end. For Putin to prevail in Ukraine is a crime. But the US invents reasons to not enforce a No Fly Zone in Ukraine, bowing to Putin threats. The US is in a muddle, with only bad options. JFK endorsed co-existence and detente, but not abject capitulation. Also he was largely speaking about the US not joining the colonialists all over the world, on behalf of globalist-multi-nationalist interests. I wish there was an answer on how to resolve the Ukraine mess. It looks like Biden will choose to be very brave with Ukrainian lives. The Ukrainians may prevail, but they will have to choose to live like Afghanies. But hey, the Bidens already made a $1 million out of Ukraine, so turning it over now to Putin is not so bad, eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Larsen Posted March 13, 2022 Share Posted March 13, 2022 24 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said: Seriously, no one can invade Russia again as they do have nukes. .... But the US invents reasons to not enforce a No Fly Zone in Ukraine, bowing to Putin threats. So, according to Ben, invading Russia gets a nuclear response, but shooting down their aircraft doesn't. Oookay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Bulman Posted March 13, 2022 Share Posted March 13, 2022 These people are trapped. No heat, food, water, light. Constant bombing and gunfire outside. Constant fear. ‘A living hell’: Inside the besieged city of Mariupol, where residents struggle to survive Russia’s onslaught (msn.com) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjamin Cole Posted March 13, 2022 Share Posted March 13, 2022 49 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said: So, according to Ben, invading Russia gets a nuclear response, but shooting down their aircraft doesn't. Oookay. Sandy L- Shooting down aircraft over Ukraine, if it comes to that...not over Russia. It may be Russian pilots choose not to test a NFZ. Agreed, very unpleasant options available. On the other hand, where do you draw the line? Putin threatens to go nuclear and reabsorbs Poland and East Germany? Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia? See Ron Bulman's post regarding Maruipol. Jeez. Biden looks feckless. Why is it those who oppose a NFZ are not characterized as Putin tools, or Moscow stooges? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Bulman Posted March 13, 2022 Share Posted March 13, 2022 35 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said: Sandy L- Shooting down aircraft over Ukraine, if it comes to that...not over Russia. It may be Russian pilots choose not to test a NFZ. Agreed, very unpleasant options available. On the other hand, where do you draw the line? Putin threatens to go nuclear and reabsorbs Poland and East Germany? Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia? See Ron Bulman's post regarding Maruipol. Jeez. Biden looks feckless. Why is it those who oppose a NFZ are not characterized as Putin tools, or Moscow stooges? Because they don't want to push him over the edge and have most of Europe, Russia and the USA Fried. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Larsen Posted March 13, 2022 Share Posted March 13, 2022 20 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said: Shooting down aircraft over Ukraine, if it comes to that...not over Russia. It may be Russian pilots choose not to test a NFZ. Or they may choose to test the NFZ. In which case there are only two possible outcomes: American pilot shoots down a Russian jet. That's an act of war and WW3 begins. American pilot refrains from shooting down Russian jet. Putin laughs and sends more jets. 20 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said: On the other hand, where do you draw the line? Precisely where Biden has drawn the line... at least as far as the military goes. What you call weak, most of us here call wise. 20 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said: Putin threatens to go nuclear and reabsorbs Poland and East Germany? Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia? Unless it's a NATO country, all we can do is increase sanctions. Precisely what Biden has done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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