The Marilyn Monroe/Kennedys Hoax: Part 1

[Pamela Brown]

43 minutes ago, David Andrews said:

I disagree.  The lyrics to "From an Altgens 6" are reprinted in The Apocryphal Bob Dylan, 1962-1966:

I got this midnight blue limo and all these motorcycle cops

 

In the middle of Elm Street, y’know, the driver just stops

 

He said he slowed down but the taillight was glowin’ bright red

 

Well, if I fall down dyin’, y’know that someone put a price upon my head

 

 

What?  Had not heard of this. Still, he's talking color.  Maybe the Zapruder...

[David Andrews]

22 minutes ago, Pamela Brown said:

What?  Had not heard of this. Still, he's talking color.  Maybe the Zapruder...

Kidding, kidding, kidding, kidding, kidding.

Apologies.  The gods of Comedy demanded it of me.

You have a point, however -- I should have called it "From a Zapruder 8."

Edited May 24, 2020 by David Andrews

[Dan Rice]

10 hours ago, David Andrews said:

You have a point, however -- I should have called it "From a Zapruder 8."

This could be a new Dylan tune  ♫

Edited May 24, 2020 by Daniel Rice

[Pamela Brown]

22 hours ago, David Andrews said:

Kidding, kidding, kidding, kidding, kidding.

Apologies.  The gods of Comedy demanded it of me.

You have a point, however -- I should have called it "From a Zapruder 8."

Not bad...you had me fooled for a moment...

I wrote a little poem in Dylanspeak about my recent encounter...

https://dylagence.wordpress.com/2020/05/10/whats-up-mr-dylan-is-someone-posing-as-you/

[David Andrews]

1 hour ago, Pamela Brown said:

Not bad...you had me fooled for a moment...

I wrote a little poem in Dylanspeak about my recent encounter...

https://dylagence.wordpress.com/2020/05/10/whats-up-mr-dylan-is-someone-posing-as-you/

Again, I apologize for misleading you.

I had thought that "midnight blue limo" would have spilled it.

Edited May 25, 2020 by David Andrews

[James DiEugenio]

Joe:

I think I understand the problem now.

Its the difference between what the witness says and what others say he said.

Lawford always denied any kind of affair between JFK and MM or RFK and MM.  

But after he died, other people now tried to stick words into his mouth.

Heymann was probably the worst of all.  That guy just made up stuff that Lawford did not say.  Heymann would clip obituaries give them to his secretary, and then just make up stuff that never happened and write them in his books. Why?  Because it is next to impossible to sue someone for defamation after they have died.  So Heymann used this cover repeatedly in his books in order to. make up stuff that Lawford did not say.  He did this for others also.

Also Jim Harwood alerted me that Lawford's last wife married an LAPD guy.  Presto.  Anyone who uses the LAPD or LA DA's office on anything dealing with RFK needs counseling.  

So that is the difference.  Dead men cannot sue for libel.  And the MM field is overpopulated with people like Heymann and Slatzer.  

.

Edited May 25, 2020 by James DiEugenio

[Kirk Gallaway]

Hmmm... I'd hate to be thought of as an authority on Peter Lawford. You'd almost have to be a 60's Hollywood, tabloidy kind of person.

I remember him being in some old movie matinees I watched during the summer, and occasionally on "What's my line". My impression of him was that he was sort of an English socialite empty bore. I could see him maybe having a concern for Marilyn, but I could see self interest in that, as  it seemed like his life was defined a lot about the people he hung around with. He was a lot of style, and little substance to me. But I never recall him behaving badly.

In the early 60's the rat pack was the essence of cool. I got my first true taste of all of them in "Ocean's 11".  I liked it but I couldn't quite believe all of it. Later to me in the 60's they became just squares and as I got older in the 70's, I learned how to spot alcoholics, and all those guys ended up fizzling out on one level or another. I also first learned about all that "fixing up JFK with women" thing. Keep in mind, he was allegedly doing this while married to Patricia Kennedy!  But what I disdained about Peter Lawford was that he always trying to be young in his 40's and 50's with beads, bell bottoms and whatever was in fashion.

It's interesting because he sucks me into being more tabloid than I really want to be. I found this "Biography" on him that looks like it was edited. Ultimately all I really have are my impressions. But the idea that after being banished by Frank, and his divorce from Patricia sorted ended his career and turned him to drink does make sense to me.

 

Edited May 25, 2020 by Kirk Gallaway

[James DiEugenio]

The point I made above about Heymann and Lawford relates to the following quote, which I think is  important: 

One of the most telling parts of Murder Orthodoxies is when McGovern uses the calendars of President Kennedy and Attorney General Kennedy and matches them with the two Monroe day-by-day books previously mentioned. (pp. 176-86) Monroe met Robert Kennedy four times, each time was in public with other people around. President Kennedy met with Monroe on three occasions. At one of those, in March of 1962 at Bing Crosby’s desert estate, there is evidence they had some kind of dalliance. And that is it. Biographers Randy Taraborrelli and Gary Vitacco-Robles agree with this record.

What this means is that for any other encounter—in which the time and geographic calendars don’t match—the evidence must originate with anecdotal sources. To accept anecdotal evidence as superseding the black and white record is usually not an acceptable practice. But further, to accept the most problematic testimony, by “witnesses” who 1.) Clearly have an agenda, and 2.) Pose very serious evidentiary problems, and to expect that to surmount the above record, to me that is a practice that should be looked upon with strong skepticism

This is one of major achievements of McGovern's book.  See, the two day by day books on MM were relatively recent arrivals. Once you had those, plus the pictures of RFK all day in Gilroy, this eliminated much of the flotsam and exposed many prevaricators.For example: Slatzer, Heymann and Smathers for starters.  And when you consider how much of Wolfe's book, for example, is based on those 3 men, well, I mean, would you base a book on the JFK case around Howard Brennan, Jerry Hill and Helen Markham?

[Pamela Brown]

22 hours ago, David Andrews said:

Again, I apologize for misleading you.

I had thought that "midnight blue limo" would have spilled it.

Apology accepted.  That might have...but then, you never know with Dylan...

[James DiEugenio]

Pretty common error is it not Pamela?

Or do you think its not?

[Joe Bauer]

Attempting to do a little homework regards a few of the persons close to MM up to the time of her death and their reflections of her.

Kirk's link to Lawford's biography, although quite general, conveyed some very interesting insight into Lawford's life and his personality. And his relationship to MM and other women in his life such as Patricia Kennedy and Lawford's awful mother.

There are quite a few video interviews out there of other characters who knew MM to some meaningful degrees that provide other glimpses of MM that may or may not be totally true and insightful but at least seem to be, again, to varying degrees imo.

Jim, you ask who the powerful men I mention as being threatened by a MM Tell-All would be?

A main one I believe is...Frank Sinatra! 

I believe his organized crime connections and background and what MM may have been made privy to in this regards was a major concern for him.

I am not totally convinced MM didn't take her own life.

Yet at the same time, in the power figure circles MM had been pulled into ( especially if in a sexual relationship way ) at the same time she was spiraling seriously downward mentally in her thirties, it's not hard to imagine a public interview meltdown where she let out all of her demons and personal resentments creating a major political, personal and business damage nightmare for those she mentioned.

MM was the central figure in at least one hot, even hateful grudge between some heavy weight characters in her later life.

DiMaggio toward Sinatra and maybe Giancana? DiMaggio toward the Kennedys?

DiMaggio carried a torch for MM his entire life that seemed way beyond any other of her relationships. He was greatly protective of her.

Why did he develop such a resentment towards Sinatra regards MM?  What did DiMaggio know about MM and Sinatra that inspired such deep and personal angst?

Same with the Kennedy's? Although with the Kennedys it may well have been simple raw jealousy.

Lawford's last years were classic fall from wealth and social grace humiliation.

Sad, but so common. Imagine the trappings of highest society wealth and glamour. It's such an indulged and pampered life. 

To have it and lose it in the same lifetime is so stark in it's ego damaging power, it's enough to inspire suicide or a major long term non-recovering mental breakdown.

The fascinating main story theme in Woody Allen's film "Blue Jasmine." Main character portrayed perfectly by the great actress Cate Blanchette.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 27, 2020 by Joe Bauer

[Pamela Brown]

I was surprised to see that Marilyn Monroe was also (in addition to Dylan) apparently swept away by the romanticism of Communism in the 50's.  She requested a visa to the USSR, per her FBI files. https://vault.fbi.gov/Marilyn Monroe/Marilyn Monroe Part 1 of 2/view

It looks like she wanted to play Grushenka in The Brothers Karamatzov, so she may have also had a business reason for doing this.

 

[Joseph McBride]

That last post about MM smacks of enduring McCarthyism. And wanting to star in

THE BROTHERS KARAMAZOV hardly makes an actor a commie. Have you read

that book? It's one of the greatest novels ever written. It's even Laura Bush's

favorite book, which I find intriguing (she has cited the Grand Inquisitor section

as her favorite). Maybe you think Laura is a closet Red?

[Pamela Brown]

This article from the 80's talks about Marilyn Monroe's supposed 'red diary'...https://www.upi.com/Archives/1982/08/03/A-red-diary-belonging-to-Marilyn-Monroe-who-died/4106397195200/

[Pamela Brown]

4 minutes ago, Joseph McBride said:

That last post about MM smacks of enduring McCarthyism. And wanting to star in

THE BROTHERS KARAMAZOV hardly makes an actor a commie. Have you read

that book? It's one of the greatest novels ever written. It's even Laura Bush's

favorite book, which I find intriguing (she has cited the Grand Inquisitor section

as her favorite). Maybe you think Laura is a closet Red?

Which is why I said...

"It looks like she wanted to play Grushenka in The Brothers Karamatzov, so she may have also had a business reason for doing this."