Did EVEN the Warren Commission Believe Howard Brennan?

[Richard Price]

Yes, I have seen these photos and I agree with you, I don't think there are any pictures showing the upper floors on the south (Elm St.) side at all.  The post you quoted above was from a discussion on this forum in 2012 and were only meant (along with the post(s) below it, to ask about the companies which were located in the building and highlight a few that had been identified.  While I cannot discount the shooter in one of these windows, in my mind it seems implausible unless the weapon is silenced and is not protruded out the window much.  Unlike the window higher up and behind all the people assembled, this position would be quite visible in contrast.  If anything drew attention in the direction of these windows, there would probably have been a ripple effect of adjacent people made aware also much like the stampede to the grassy knoll.  Just my opinion and I am open to changing my mind.

[Chris Davidson]

14 minutes ago, Richard Price said:

Yes, I have seen these photos and I agree with you, I don't think there are any pictures showing the upper floors on the south (Elm St.) side at all.  The post you quoted above was from a discussion on this forum in 2012 and were only meant (along with the post(s) below it, to ask about the companies which were located in the building and highlight a few that had been identified.  While I cannot discount the shooter in one of these windows, in my mind it seems implausible unless the weapon is silenced and is not protruded out the window much.  Unlike the window higher up and behind all the people assembled, this position would be quite visible in contrast.  If anything drew attention in the direction of these windows, there would probably have been a ripple effect of adjacent people made aware also much like the stampede to the grassy knoll.  Just my opinion and I am open to changing my mind.

There's always the possibility of multiple shooters in the same building. It does not mean they all had to fire a weapon.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/26525-unveiling-the-limo-stop/?do=findComment&comment=421299

[Micah Mileto]

28 minutes ago, Chris Davidson said:

There's always the possibility of multiple shooters in the same building. It does not mean they all had to fire a weapon.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/26525-unveiling-the-limo-stop/?do=findComment&comment=421299

Would there be more risk of failure if a shooter flinched or blinked from the other shooter(s) next to them?

[Ron Bulman]

44 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

 

This is an extreme closeup of the 3rd floor window...  that black blob is there in every version I've seen and seems to float over the photo...

Still appears like someone in that window

 

I've heard say the 2nd floor, 3rd floor, 6th floor and roof...  I don't think there are any photos of the 6th floor or roof during the motorcade...  ???

Here are the 2nd story on left and 3rd story fire escape windows

 

3rd floor

 

2nd and 3rd stories with Altgens photo enlargement down Houston

 

 

David, that last inset on the right is grainy enough to be badge man.  I think I might see a guy with a gun, hanging out the window with a rifle, which makes no sense to me regarding exposure.  I've believed someone shot from Dal - Tex for years, from the second floor on the West side.  Be it from the 2nd, 3rd, sixth even east  most from window, I still do.

I read something many years ago, I don't remember where,  about someone saying they shot out of a cleaning/broom closet window, raised just a few inches (?).  On the second or now maybe third floor.  They being a spotter or rear cover.  Mentioned something about going down a floor (or two?) then going out/off the back dock.  Thinking of Jim Braden/ Eugene Hale  Brading being arrested out front it made me wonder.  Wondering if anyone else has read about such.  Maybe it came from a book in the dispose of box, the one by files? Idk. 

[Chris Davidson]

2 hours ago, Micah Mileto said:

Would there be more risk of failure if a shooter flinched or blinked from the other shooter(s) next to them?

 Meant more along the lines of different floors within the same building allowing for different angles.

[John Butler]

19 hours ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

John,

We agree that at least one (early) shot was fired at the motorcade around this point, and we agree that films were damaged or spliced to hide this fact. (I am not sold that JFK was hit at this moment. I don't believe he was.)

Still, the reason for the film alteration/damage was simple: any shot at this point in the motorcade was far more consistent with a shot from the east, not from the "sniper's window", which was almost directly overhead at that moment! 

 

Paul,

At least agreement on one shot early on at the intersection is a good start.  In prior times no one would accept an early shot at the intersection and in front of the TSBD.  Due to the Zapruder film this notion of early shooting was a heresy.  Only a few people tried to back up the shooting from where most folks think it happened generally according to Zapruder.  But, not as far as the intersection or in front of the TSBD.

I'm not sure I agree Howard Brennan saw what he saw in a 6th floor Dal-Tex window on the Southeast side.  To many people describe similar things seen at the 6th floor TSBD. 

Is there any other evidence for a 6th floor sniper at that location in the Dal-Tex?  I haven't seen any.  I haven't paid close attention to what people are saying due to rejecting the idea.  This is my attempt to pay closer attention.  

[John Butler]

18 hours ago, David Josephs said:

I have this as further support for that early shot... I agree with you that a shot at z157/158 happened and was noticed by Rosemary, Hickey and JFK I believe.. among others

David,

Would you agree that Z 157 shows the p. limo at about the SW corner of the TSBD.  Looking at the frame one sees that the p. limo is about at the end of the cement at the SW corner of Elm and Houston.  Camera angles suggest it may be further down Elm.  But, the p. limo doesn't seem to be in front of the lamppost across from the R L Thornton sign.  That's about 10-20 feet off the TSBD.  So, is the p. limo in this shot parallel with the SW corner of the TSBD?

[John Butler]

19 hours ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

"All of this took only a few seconds. I didn't realize at that moment that I was the only person who was actually watching the man firing the rifle. Simultaneous with the third shot, I swung my eyes back to the Presidential car which had moved on down to my left on Elm, and I saw a sight that made my whole being sink in despair. A spray of red came from around the President's head. I knew the bullet had struck its intended target. Later, I would learn that the whole scene had taken less than ten seconds. In retrospect, it seemed like several minutes."

Paul,

I'm assuming this is from Brennan's book.  He gave many range estimates for this event happening.  I forgot the 50 yard range estimate when I spoke of this earlier.  The sequence of range estimates I believe goes like this:

1. 50 yards-  150 feet from intersection

2. 70 yards- 270 feet from the intersection

3. 30 yards- 90 feet from the intersection ( I may not have these in the correct order- to lazy to look up the correct order)

4.  The last was a "short distance"-  I take this to be more or less in front of him.

None of the answers suited the FBI.  They left him to say a "short distance" which could mean anything. 

Howard says that he learned the whole scene took less than 10 seconds.  I once estimated the Zapruder Gap at about 21 seconds just based on how long it took for the motorbikes to get to Z frame 132.  Others suggest about 20 seconds.  David Joseph probably had the best estimate of about 15 seconds.  So, I would guess about 15 to 20 seconds.  Let's use 15 seconds for the gap.  At 18.3 frames per second we are missing about 275 frames.  If one take 20 then 366 frames.  That makes the gap the longest part of the film.  Lots could happen in there.

Take Brennan's largest estimate of 70 yards or 270 feet.  At 18.3 frames per second (based on a frame per foot) that is about 486 frames or 26 seconds (the length of the whole film) from the intersection.  Wouldn't that be at the Triple Underpass.  Somebody needs to check my math here errors or even for relevance.  

[David Josephs]

1 hour ago, John Butler said:

Would you agree that Z 157 shows the p. limo at about the SW corner of the TSBD. 

Not sure if you've ever seen this animation...  but here is a frame from it...  you also may do yourself a favor and find a file of the 20:1 or 10:1 plat of Elm...
I know another member here is working on a very accurate animation as well... just need to go find it.

So, no... if this is accurate the front of the limo doesn't get to the SW corner until after z175... There are no photos or films other than Zapruder... and the Towner hand-off, that shows that section of DP at that time...  Checking Davidson's work...z175-180 checks out

 

 

 

 

[David Josephs]

1 hour ago, John Butler said:

Take Brennan's largest estimate of 70 yards or 270 feet.  At 18.3 frames per second (based on a frame per foot) that is about 486 frames or 26 seconds (the length of the whole film) from the intersection.  Wouldn't that be at the Triple Underpass.  Somebody needs to check my math here errors or even for relevance.

I reduced the one I work with down so the detail may be a bit fuzzy...  the original photoshop file is 170 megs...  yet I believe you can use the 1"=20' scale, but you need to set the file up to display that way...

This plat also corresponds to CE884 with dots on the street placed by Shaneyfelt after moving the path of the limo south and east by 1.1 feet.

Robert West's path flows thru the station numbers... 2+00, 3+00, etc....  with the last shot placed within 4 feet of 5+00... or as the front of the limo reaches the steps by the knoll

DJ

[Richard Price]

15 hours ago, Chris Davidson said:

There's always the possibility of multiple shooters in the same building. It does not mean they all had to fire a weapon.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/26525-unveiling-the-limo-stop/?do=findComment&comment=421299

I agree on that as well.  We really don't know how many teams may have been placed in the kill zone.

[John Butler]

4 hours ago, David Josephs said:

So, no... if this is accurate the front of the limo doesn't get to the SW corner until after z175... There are no photos or films other than Zapruder... and the Towner hand-off, that shows that section of DP at that time...  Checking Davidson's work...z175-180 checks out

Wow!  I'm not the person to argue with Joseph or Davidson.  I would have thought Z 175-180 would be further down the street and closer to the Stemmons sign.  If David and Chris are right then Z 175 the first shot has already happened. 

This makes a fellow want to go back and take another look at Croft, Betzner, and Willis.  Particularly Croft.

This is a tranquil scene with no hint of violence.  From here at about Z 175 to Z 313 is about 138 frames or 7.5 seconds.  The assassination with this range as the range is well within the official story or at least close to it.  I'm not sure this is out from under the trees and visible to the 6th floor. 

There is a strange reflection on the trunk.  It is a very clear reflection of the TSBD and a tree trunk/tree visible there.  What I find strange is that the passenger side of the car shows this clear reflection and the driver's side of the car does not show a bright, clear reflection, but is instead murky.  The sun is coming more or less from the south and west.  There should be a nice bright reflection there showing the SW corner of Elm and Main.  From the angle of the sun I don't see, but should see that area clearly.

If you do a blow up of Croft the p. limo gets weirder.  The top part of the vehicle shows a bright sun on a bright sunny day.  Notice the front door handle.  The bottom part shows a gloomy, dark day with the sun hidden.  If you blow that up you might see something that looks like the Federal Annex and Main Street on the side of the vehicle.  I am not certain that that would be the case from the angle of the sun. 

   

 

Edited August 7, 2020 by John Butler

[Paul Jolliffe]

4 hours ago, John Butler said:

Paul,

At least agreement on one shot early on at the intersection is a good start.  In prior times no one would accept an early shot at the intersection and in front of the TSBD.  Due to the Zapruder film this notion of early shooting was a heresy.  Only a few people tried to back up the shooting from where most folks think it happened generally according to Zapruder.  But, not as far as the intersection or in front of the TSBD.

I'm not sure I agree Howard Brennan saw what he saw in a 6th floor Dal-Tex window on the Southeast side.  To many people describe similar things seen at the 6th floor TSBD. 

Is there any other evidence for a 6th floor sniper at that location in the Dal-Tex?  I haven't seen any.  I haven't paid close attention to what people are saying due to rejecting the idea.  This is my attempt to pay closer attention.  

John,

I have focused on Howard Brennan alone because that's the thread.

Brennan:

1. In his excited, first-day affidavit to the Dallas Sheriff's Department, Brennan clearly described the Dal-Tex, not the TSBD, as the building in which he saw a sniper. (See my July 27 post.)

2. When taking Brennan's testimony, David Belin went to enormously fantastic lengths to obscure, rather than clarify the import of Brennan's statement:

     a. Belin failed to introduce the most basic document - Brennan's own affidavit!

     b. Belin suborned perjured testimony from Brennan - Belin knew that Brennan was NOT where he located himself in Warren Commission Exhibits 477 and 478. Brennan's real position was clearly shown in WC Exhibit 479, a frame from the Zapruder film - Brennan was ten feet further to the east on the curved cement wall. By mislocating Brennan's true position, Belin hid the direction in which Brennan was facing, and thus, the building at which Brennan was looking directly - the Dal-Tex, NOT the TSBD!

("Mr. BELIN. Well, your legs in this picture, Exhibit 479, I notice, are not dangling on the front side there, is that correct?")

    c. Belin introduced WC Exhibits 477 and 478 as official evidence which was immediately questioned by a confused Gerald Ford:

( Representative Ford. Are those the positions where you were sitting on November 22?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir.
Representative FORD. At about 12
Mr. BRENNAN. From about 12:22 or 12:24 until the time of the assassination.
Representative FORD. In both pictures, that is a true--
Mr. BRENNAN. True location.
Representative FORD. True location of where you were sitting November 22d?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir.)

     d. Belin introduced WC Exhibit 361, an upside down map of the area north and east of the TSBD, ostensibly to allow Brennan to retrace his steps before and after the assassination. However, the effect of the map was to confuse the witness and to obscure the significance of Brennan's statement that the first DPD officer with whom he spoke took him along Houston Street, north of Elm!

     e. Belin showed Brennan WC Exhibit 477, and Brennan immediately expressed doubt that it was the right window, or even the right building! Rather than clear it up, Belin handed Brennan a marking pencil and asked/directed Brennan to "mark the window"!

Mr. BELIN. I am going to ask you to circle on Exhibit 477 the particular window that you said you saw a man leave and come back a couple of times.
Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I am confused here, the way this shows. But I believe this is the sixth floor, the way those windows are built there right at the present. I am confused whether this is the same window.
Mr. BELIN. You mean because some windows are open below it?
Mr. BRENNAN. No, the way the building is built, it seems like this is more or less a long window with a divider in the middle.
Mr. BELIN. Here is a marking pencil. Will you just mark the window that you believe you saw the man.

     

3. The FBIallegedly quoted Brennan as saying that the shooter was about 90 yards from Brennan. While this was clearly wrong for the "sniper's window" in the TSBD, it was not a terrible guess for the easternmost window of the 6th floor of the Dal-Tex. However, Belin did not introduce Brennan's original statement to the FBI. We do have FBI agent Robert Gemberling's report (WCD 205, pages 289 etc.) which tells us that Brennan already talked to the FBI, but not the original statement itself!

4. Brennan, in his 11/22/63 affidavit, said plainly that the shooter he saw lowered the gun and then "stepped DOWN and out of sight . . ." 

For anyone kneeling and shooting out of the "sniper's window" of the TSBD, stepping DOWN was an impossibility. However, for a shooter in the Dal-Tex, a standing sniper may well have "stepped down" from the window. 

John, I could go on, but this is already long enough. 

I am convinced that Belin made a deliberate effort to hide Brennan's original first-day observations about a shooter in the Dal-Tex. 

 

 

[Paul Jolliffe]

3 hours ago, Richard Price said:

I agree on that as well.  We really don't know how many teams may have been placed in the kill zone.

I agree too - I have long wondered if there were multiple shooters on the grassy knoll. Multiple shooters on various floors of the Dal-Tex sounds plausible. 

[Paul Jolliffe]

24 minutes ago, John Butler said:

Wow!  I'm not the person to argue with Joseph or Davidson.  I would have thought Z 175-180 would be further down the street and closer to the Stemmons sign.  If David and Chris are right then Z 175 the first shot has already happened. 

This makes a fellow want to go back and take another look at Croft, Betzner, and Willis.  Particularly Croft.

This is a tranquil scene with no hint of violence.  From here at about Z 175 to Z 313 is about 138 frames or 7.5 seconds.  The assassination with this range as the range is well within the official story or at least close to it.  I'm not sure this is out from under the trees and visible to the 6th floor. 

There is a strange reflection on the trunk.  It is a very clear reflection of the TSBD and a tree trunk/tree visible there.  What I find strange is that the passenger side of the car shows this clear reflection and the driver's side of the car does not show a bright, clear reflection, but is instead murky.  The sun is coming more or less from the south and west.  There should be a nice bright reflection there showing the SW corner of Elm and Main.  From the angle of the sun I don't see, but should see that area clearly.

If you do a blow up of Croft the p. limo gets weirder.  The top part of the vehicle shows a bright sun on a bright sunny day.  Notice the front door handle.  The bottom part shows a gloomy, dark day with the sun hidden.  If you blow that up you might see something that looks like the Federal Annex and Main Street on the side of the vehicle.  I am not certain that that would be the case from the angle of the sun. 

   

 

John,

I disagree that this is a "tranquil scene with no hint of violence."   

The concern on the somber faces of both Jackie Kennedy and John Connally is obvious. They both are turning to their left. Connally, of course, swore to his dying day that he heard the first shot, recognized it as a shot and then turned back to his right to try to see JFK. 

Might this photo catch the moment before Connally began to turn to his right?

I agree with all the analysis that you and David Josephs and others have done that a (missed) shot was fired at the limo shortly after the turn onto Elm. Before this picture was taken, in other words. This picture would seem to be consistent with SA Hickey's reaction in the follow-up car: he looked down at the pavement to his left (See David Josephs's clip.)