Did EVEN the Warren Commission Believe Howard Brennan?

[John Butler]

If one is looking for shooters in the Dal-Tex building one might go to Altgens 6 and look at this northern 3rd floor window.  There is a shadowy figure there and a loose mesh screen with a window completely up.  There is a dark object sticking out of the window which appears to be a weapon.

Were there any witnesses who said they saw gunmen in the Dal-Tex.  I don't recall any.  There were more then one who did see gunmen in the TSBD.  Since more than one witness saw gunmen in the TSBD that is more than likely the plan.  Yes, the conspiracy plan called for a staged gunmen tableau in the 6th floor Sniper's Nest.  That was in the official story from the beginning.  It didn't matter what the circumstances were the FBI, SS, Dallas authorities, and the WC pushed through the notion that Lee Harvey Oswald was the lone gunmen who shot President Kennedy from the SE corner of the 6th floor, the Sniper's Nest.

It didn't matter that that's not what some witnesses saw.  It didn't matter that Jesse Curry couldn't put Oswald on the 6th floor with a rifle in his hand.  It didn't matter that you can not prove in court based on witness testimony than anyone fired a shot from the 6th floor Sniper's Nest. 

It didn't matter what Howard Brennan said.  What mattered is what they said he said.  After time had passed what mattered is what the authorities said happened.  The Zapruder film and changed testimony in FBI 302s were shear psychological genius.  Later, when a witness looked at the Zapruder film and saw his statements recorded by the FBI then that is what must have happened.  Any differing memories could be chalked up to memory failure over time.  After all there in black and white on the FBI report is what I said and my gosh look at that Zapruder film.  It shows what happened where I said it happened.

71 witnesses said the shooting occurred in front of the TSBD.  There were probably as many who said "Just after" or "immediately after" the president passed the TSBD.  Most were not qualified with a distance from the TSBD.  They simply used those words.  Easy to put into a 302.  It's just 2 words.  It changes the meaning for witnesses near the Elm and Houston Street intersection or in front of the TSBD when they heard shots as the President passed by.

This is why the first statements of witnesses at the Sheriff's Office and the Dallas Police are probably more truthful than later statements taken by the FBI.  The adjustments to the plan took several hours later that day to be spread so that everyone in authority could know what happened. 

A plan was in preparation and working when the motorcade came down Main Street and turned onto Houston Street and Dealey Plaza.  I personally think the assassination was botched and it was a lucky shot (the head shot) that mortally wounded President Kennedy.  Although the assassins were elsewhere, the focus was and continued to be on the 6th floor Sniper's Nest and Lee Harvey Oswald.

   

[Ron Bulman]

On 7/27/2020 at 10:53 PM, Richard Price said:

Going back to the discussion of Brennan's description of where he saw the shooter, does this also tie in with where the prisoners in the jail said they saw someone with a gun possibly.  I don't remember where exactly the jail was located, but seem to recall that it was mentioned as being across the street from the TSBD and there was some discussion as to whether they could see the so called snipers nest due to the angle.  If Brennan's description (as highlighted by the red circle) is correct, there would have been no problem with seeing directly across the street.  The prisoners stories could have been changed easily to reflect the TSBD instead of the Dal-Tex building, just as Brennan's was.  Even easier, since they were prisoners and weren't available for interviews and weren't searched out because their view of the supposed shooting site was limited.  If you take Brennan at his word, one of the circled windows would have been where he actually saw a gunman.  Look at the fantastic, totally unobstructed view this gunman would have had down Elm (ALL THE WAY DOWN TO THE TRIPLE UNDERPASS).

Paul and Richard in particular thanks for a lively and very informative discussion.  I've long thought shot(s) came from Dal-Tex, likely why Braden/Brading was there.  I've never read about Brennan sitting literally on the corner of Elm and Houston, facing Dal-Tex.

That he saw someone with a gun in the far right of the window's circled above is hard to wrap my head around.  I figured 2nd floor S/W corner from Houston side for the back shot and one that missed JFK/hit Connally. 

  

[Ray Mitcham]

Ron, this is the view of the TSBD taken from the exact spot Brennan was, when the shots occurred. He must have had extremely good vision to see the details he did.

Copyright Bill Brown.

Edited August 2, 2020 by Ray Mitcham

[Richard Price]

1 hour ago, Ray Mitcham said:

Ron, this is the view of the TSBD taken from the exact spot Brennan was, when the shots occurred. He must have had extremely good vision to see the details he did.

Copyright Bill Brown.

His sight distance to the "sniper" window is 120 feet as per his own calculations.  He is quoted in one of the interviews he made as stating that he had exception far sightedness since he was a child.  He said he first noticed it when he and other kids played a game where they had to identify tags on passing cars.  He said he almost always won because he could see them before anyone else.  He was estimated to be around 270 feet from the Dal-Tex eastern most window on the 6th floor.

[Mark Stevens]

I've spent some considerable time trying to determine where Brennan was and what his line of sight was.

I've come to the personal conclusion that Brennan was not directly facing the TSBD but was instead directly facing the Dal-Tex. The TSBD was clearly in his line of sight, but was not immediately in front of him and the building as well as the "snipers nest" was to his left.

While I'm not able to speculate on his WC testimony, I believe it's evident the information he gave during the testimony is not completely accurate.

Not often mentioned is the fact that Brennan had considerable health problems after the assassination:

Quote

 

The doctor's bills of of Howard Brennan, who had watched Oswald fire that final shot, reached $2,700.

The Death of A President p. 638

 

This may have been related to his sandblasting accident. I'm searching, but I doubt there's much information out there about that event. 

He also spent considerable time in therapy:

Quote

Howard L. Brennan, the pipefitter who had seen Oswald fire the fatal shot, was even sicker. Although Brennan, like Truly and Fischer, had violently disapproved of the Kennedy Presidency he was deeply disturbed. Obsessed with the fear that the assassin's co-conspirators would kill his two-year-old granddaughter, he commenced the first of a long series of therapeutic sessions.

The Death of A President p.447

I bet he was obsessed with that fear, I wonder what the co-conspirators of Kennedy's Assassination were afraid he saw?

https://ibb.co/q7dM38T

https://ibb.co/pRfGXxb

This is all fairly rudimentary, but it is a collection of some of the things I have which not only show where Brennan was sitting, but what his relative view was from this position as well. Next time I'm in Dealey I plan on gathering more in this area, but that will be some time.

The various assassination video stills show where Brennan was sitting. The WC recreation is included to show that the WC placed him in the entirely wrong position and that by doing so they changed his entire perspective. The views with the yellow lines denote where he was sitting and what direction he was immediately facing. The Plaza diagram with the fountain corner also overlays this perspective and his general FOV.

The other shots are to and from this basic location as well as a shot of the spot Brennan was sitting in.

I think it's clear where exactly Brennan was sitting and which building he was immediately facing. Now I guess the question is, did he see everything he claims in the building directly in front of him or did he witness those actions in the building to his left?

https://ibb.co/BNgRRv3

Quote

And I looked directly across, and up....

Does that look and sound like someone looking at the TBSD from Brennan's position?

Personally, I don't think so.

[Richard Price]

8 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

Paul and Richard in particular thanks for a lively and very informative discussion.  I've long thought shot(s) came from Dal-Tex, likely why Braden/Brading was there.  I've never read about Brennan sitting literally on the corner of Elm and Houston, facing Dal-Tex.

That he saw someone with a gun in the far right of the window's circled above is hard to wrap my head around.  I figured 2nd floor S/W corner from Houston side for the back shot and one that missed JFK/hit Connally. 

  

I also had never considered anywhere except the TSBD  and the fire escape windows of the Dal-Tex building.  This I think shows the assassination was planned and executed in military style.  The shooter's location is virtually invisible and has been for 57 years.  Every person in the area was there to see the president.  Their view is directed first (at street level) towards the south as the limo comes toward Elm, then westward as it leaves the area.  The shooter is well above the crowd and over 100 feet BEHIND everyone.  It is a miracle, or in this case a curse that anyone saw him.  It was ALMOST PERFECT.

[John Butler]

1 hour ago, Richard Price said:

I also had never considered anywhere except the TSBD  and the fire escape windows of the Dal-Tex building.  This I think shows the assassination was planned and executed in military style.  The shooter's location is virtually invisible and has been for 57 years.  Every person in the area was there to see the president.  Their view is directed first (at street level) towards the south as the limo comes toward Elm, then westward as it leaves the area.  The shooter is well above the crowd and over 100 feet BEHIND everyone.  It is a miracle, or in this case a curse that anyone saw him.  It was ALMOST PERFECT.

I posted perhaps 3 or 4 years ago photos similar to this for the intersection of Main and Houston, and Elm and Houston.  I almost posted lines for the X marks the spot of Robert Groden.  Dealey Plaza is a sniper's paradise:

This is why I occasionally call Dealey Plaza Murder Plaza.  I focused these lines of fire on the intersection, but they could equally be focused on the official story spot, X marks the spot in front of the Grassy Knoll for those who prefer the official story.  If you notice one of the red lines stretch from the SE corner of the Dal-Tex all the way to the railroad bridge.

The lines coming into the intersection from Houston Street, or from a southern direction are not unrealistic if you read some witness testimonies.  Some claim the President had a left temple wound.  They can account for some of the President's wounds as well as shots from east Elm, the Dal-Tex, and the TSBD.  Admittedly, there are more witnesses who say that shooting occurred past the TSBD and down Elm Street.  But, one still has to account for the 71 witnesses that said the shooting occurred in the intersection.

 

Edited August 2, 2020 by John Butler

[Richard Price]

A few posts earlier Mark Stevens said, "I bet he was obsessed with that fear, I wonder what the co-conspirators of Kennedy's Assassination were afraid he saw?"

I think they knew exactly what he saw and as he said on Nov. 22, 1963 - He could identify the man he saw IF HE SAW HIM AGAIN (not LHO, because that is not who he saw).  This is why I think he had his "eyes sanded".  Without killing him, this would be the best way to throw doubt on any ID he might make in the future.  This along with manipulating his testimony, knowing his deep seated fear for his family and his general hope to just not be involved and actively trying to stay out of the public worked wonders.  I believe his wanting to be left alone may have saved his life, just not his eyes and mental health.

This is also the video in which I noticed his subconscious "tell" where he looks up and to the right as he describes his actions.  By doing this, he CANNOT be looking at the TSBD.

[Joe Bauer]

"Sniper's Paradise." "Murder Plaza."

After years of seeing aerial views of Dealey Plaza it is exactly that.

So obvious! 

Not only do you have the much more open space tree, fence, wall and railroad yard obscured hiding places ( and get away places ) on the ground level and the typical tall building sniper perches on elevated levels but this is "the only place" along the entire motorcade route where JFK's limo would have to make "two" speed slowing 90 degree turns which were clearly against presidential motorcade security protocols according to Colonel Fletcher Prouty.

Any supposedly highly trained and experienced security planning person who took a preliminary safety evaluation drive on the route before the actual motorcade easily would have ( or should have ) noticed these two 90% turn risk increasing anomalies and perhaps blocked off Dealey Plaza from pedestrian gathering while JFK was passing through it? 

As well as the almost 200 yard long stretch of tree, fence and wall lined hiding places situation on the elevated grassy knoll all along Elm to the freeway entrance.

Imo, It would be common sense easy to see the gunman hiding potential there just as much as seeing this with the railroad overpass at the end of it.

You would think that the DPD would have positioned some officers behind the top of the grassy knoll and in the large open adjoining parking area to keep anyone from hiding under the shaded tree canopy all along the picket fence. Not one DPD officer was assigned there?

They had a couple on the railroad overpass, but even there, wasn't the top of this supposed to be cleared of any person as JFK passed underneath? Great security work there.

I have read over and over the official excuse for the 90 degree Dealey Plaza turn off at the end of the motorcade route. That it was the only way to route JFK's limo onto the right freeway to get to the Trade Mart. That bypassing Dealey Plaza and staying on Main made this access impossible.

Not researched enough to make any solid conclusions about the truth to this explanation/excuse claim, but still it seems common sense to at least consider it with suspicion considering how much risk was taken to get off of the wide open Main street route.

And lastly, I have watched several videos of Clint Hill interviews where he was asked about the security protocols regards higher building sniper risks along presidential motorcade routes.

Can't remember exact quotes of Hill's responses, however I believe they were almost always something along the line of vague " manpower " issues. ... Can't check em all ya know.

I always wondered, since one of the most considered risks of Presidential security was a shooting from above, how there could be such a simplified and obviously inadequate plan to address that risk?

In Dallas, how many men would it have taken to place a security officer on each roof of each high rise in the downtown area?

Even if it was twenty or thirty or even forty or fifty, the other agencies had this kind of man power. Yet, Dallas Sheriff Decker told his men to not even be a part of the motorcade security! 

If someone was on top of the 5 high rises in Dealey Plaza with binoculars on 11,22,1963, I guarantee you, scanning the windows beneath them any shooter in the TXSBD would have been spotted within seconds.

Also, as I have mentioned before on this subject, to me as a totally untrained security person but just using common sense, I would have had a specific tall building threat risk plan to have officers on the ground with binoculars, whose job it would be to continuously scan the open windows of the buildings above them  ( and no other function ) starting minutes before the arrival of the President's car, during it's passing underneath and even after until the limo was far enough passed to be of risk. Doesn't that sound Junior High simple, obvious and logical?

Critics will say "easy to consider in hindsight."  I say BS to that. It's a no-brainer, especially when the SS had to consider the high building risk factor so many times before and had the chance to come up with such a simple common sense protocol, imo.

Edited August 2, 2020 by Joe Bauer

[John Butler]

20 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

"Sniper's Paradise." "Murder Plaza."

After years of seeing aerial views of Dealey Plaza it is exactly that.

So obvious! 

Not only do you have the much more open space tree, fence, wall and railroad yard obscured hiding places ( and get away places ) on the ground level and the typical tall building sniper perches on elevated levels but this is "the only place" along the entire motorcade route where JFK's limo would have to make "two" speed slowing 90 degree turns which were clearly against presidential motorcade security protocols according to Colonel Fletcher Prouty.

Any supposedly highly trained and experienced security planning person who took a preliminary safety evaluation drive on the route before the actual motorcade easily would have ( or should have ) noticed these two 90% turn risk increasing anomalies and perhaps blocked off Dealey Plaza from pedestrian gathering while JFK was passing through it? 

As well as the almost 200 yard long stretch of tree, fence and wall lined hiding places situation on the elevated grassy knoll all along Elm to the freeway entrance.

Imo, It would be common sense easy to see the gunman hiding potential there just as much as seeing this with the railroad overpass at the end of it.

You would think that the DPD would have positioned some officers behind the top of the grassy knoll and in the large open adjoining parking area to keep anyone from hiding under the shaded tree canopy all along the picket fence. Not one DPD officer was assigned there?

They had a couple on the railroad overpass, but even there, wasn't the top of this supposed to be cleared of any person as JFK passed underneath? Great security work there.

I have read over and over the official excuse for the 90 degree Dealey Plaza turn off at the end of the motorcade route. That it was the only way to route JFK's limo onto the right freeway to get to the Trade Mart. That bypassing Dealey Plaza and staying on Main made this access impossible.

Not researched enough to make any solid conclusions about the truth to this explanation/excuse claim, but still it seems common sense to at least consider it with suspicion considering how much risk was taken to get off of the wide open Main street route.

And lastly, I have watched several videos of Clint Hill interviews where he was asked about the security protocols regards higher building sniper risks along presidential motorcade routes.

Can't remember exact quotes of Hill's responses, however I believe they were almost always something along the line of vague " manpower " issues. ... Can't check em all ya know.

I always wondered, since one of the most considered risks of Presidential security was a shooting from above, how there could be such a simplified and obviously inadequate plan to address that risk?

In Dallas, how many men would it have taken to place a security officer on each roof of each high rise in the downtown area?

Even if it was twenty or thirty or even forty or fifty, the other agencies had this kind of man power. Yet, Dallas Sheriff Decker told his men to not even be a part of the motorcade security! 

If someone was on top of the 5 high rises in Dealey Plaza with binoculars on 11,22,1963, I guarantee you, scanning the windows beneath them any shooter in the TXSBD would have been spotted within seconds.

Also, as I have mentioned before on this subject, to me as a totally untrained security person but just using common sense, I would have had a specific tall building threat risk plan to have officers on the ground with binoculars, whose job it would be to continuously scan the open windows of the buildings above them  ( and no other function ) starting minutes before the arrival of the President's car, during it's passing underneath and even after until the limo was far enough passed to be of risk. Doesn't that sound Junior High simple, obvious and logical?

Critics will say "easy to consider in hindsight."  I say BS to that. It's a no-brainer, especially when the SS had to consider the high building risk factor so many times before and had the chance to come up with such a simple common sense protocol, imo.

Joe,

You make many excellent points.  They are sound and logical.  I just want to make comment on one. 

20 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

If someone was on top of the 5 high rises in Dealey Plaza with binoculars on 11,22,1963, I guarantee you, scanning the windows beneath them any shooter in the TXSBD would have been spotted within seconds.

These assassins were professional fellows.  They would have understood that they could be seen from other places.  They would have taken measures to conceal themselves.  For instance in the Altgens 6 crop I posted earlier you can see that mesh screens blocked the shooters window.  These would have provided enough concealment to be not seen or at least not recognized.

Compare this sniper team to the stage show in the 6th floor Sniper's Nest.  I think the only early person to mention this is Harold Weisberg.  There may have been others, but that's all I recall.  The sixth floor Sniper's Nest was a show piece with weapons sticking out the window.  At least 2 men were walking around showing weapons.  But, there were not shots fired from the Sniper's Nest.  Even Howard Brennan said he didn't see anyone shoot from there.  Of the 13 witnesses the closest to the Sniper's Nest (within 40 feet on other floors) only two said shots came from above (Norman and Williams).  Junior Jarman changed his testimony to shots coming from low and to the left.  This would fit the Dal-Tex sniper team in the Altgens crop.  The other eleven (except Elsie Dorman) thought the shots came from the west from the Grassy Knoll or the Triple Underpass.  Elsie Dorman thought the shots came from the Court Records Building.

Just as an aside.  I have looked at this photo for years and I have just spotted very vague imagery suggesting a scope on the rifle.  I won't argue it since it is so vague.  But, objects in nature are never, or almost never in a straight line.

 

 

 

Edited August 3, 2020 by John Butler

[Jonathan Cohen]

On 8/1/2020 at 10:54 PM, John Butler said:

If one is looking for shooters in the Dal-Tex building one might go to Altgens 6 and look at this northern 3rd floor window.

   

So, according to you, the conspirators massively altered Altgens 6 during the precious few minutes before it went out over the AP wire but managed to leave in evidence of a sniper in a window of the Dal-Tex building?

[John Butler]

18 minutes ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

So, according to you, the conspirators massively altered Altgens 6 during the precious few minutes before it went out over the AP wire but managed to leave in evidence of a sniper in a window of the Dal-Tex building?

Nope.  I don't think anyone saw that until Harold Weisberg saw it that in 1967. (I hope my memory is correct on that)

[David G. Healy]

22 minutes ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

So, according to you, the conspirators massively altered Altgens 6 during the precious few minutes before it went out over the AP wire but managed to leave in evidence of a sniper in a window of the Dal-Tex building?

Mr. Cohen -- you've authenticated that this particular (version) Altgen's photo is indeed the *very* one that was sent out over the AP wire 11/22/63?

Forget the photo alteration aspect for the moment, what is the provenance of this particular image in this thread and proof/documentation of same? I doubt you can tell me, or anyone else those answers with assurance. You are of course entitled to your opinion regarding any case related film or photo, but not your own photo authenticity without provenance.

[Joe Bauer]

The WC testimony of Harold Norman along with his affidavit taken 11,23,1963 seem fairly believable in his describing hearing rifle shots and spent cartridges hitting the floor above his motorcade viewing position on the 5th floor of the Texas School Book Depository.

I do feel a gun was fired from the 6th floor window. However, this could have been a purposeful distraction/diversion part of the shooting plan.

It's preposterous to consider that whoever was shooting from the 6th floor did so in the manner described by Norman and others and didn't understand how vulnerable and stupid his actions were.

He is seen earlier through his open window by bystanders in the streets below holding the rifle. No concealment whatsoever? He sticks the rifle barrel out past the window frame while shooting which makes it visible to at least one person below ... Amos Euins.

He sits so close to the open window people on the street can see his clothing, his general build, skin tone and hair style, color, etc.

The shooter might as well have hung a big red banner down from his window saying "HERE I AM...THE SHOOTER OF JFK!" 

The shooter didn't take into account that there were probably people directly below him watching the motorcade while he is shooting? 

The TXSBD 6th floor shooter made his presence so obvious and visible it defies logic except in the sense that he wanted to be seen and heard.

Oswald was smarter than this. Let's say Oswald did take one potshot at Walker earlier in the year.

If he did, he planned this with common sense cover.

He did so in the cover of night. Probably in some type off ground cover position - shrubs, trees.

No people around to see him. He shoots one time and then takes off running. More shots and neighbors might run out to see what's going on.

That's common sense cover planning.

Contrast that with hanging close in and almost out of an open window of a large flat sided building visible to hundreds right below building and with so much bright sunlight shining right on him to make him even more visible. He holds his rifle close enough to the open window street bystanders Carolyn Walthers and Arnold Rowland below can even describe it.

Then he starts firing with his gun sticking out the window and with the gun shots being so loud and powerful everyone is going to start looking around. And he doesn't fire once and run, he fires 2 or 3 times more!

If Oswald was the TXSBD 6th floor shooter, he must have been on a suicide mission.

He was intelligent enough to know how crazy his broad daylight visible exposure and with multiple shots his odds of being seen were 100%.

Edited August 3, 2020 by Joe Bauer

[Richard Price]

For right now, I will only make one comment.  I have Brennan's book on the way to me so I can read what he and his pastor (friend) wrote.  Joe noted that he now realized what a dream set up for an ambush Dealey Plaza was.  It was exactly that and it was adapted by some professionals.  If I and a few others here on the forum are correct, Howard Brennan is the ONLY person in the Plaza that saw an assassin clearly.  Because of his foresight in getting in a position that would allow him to have a panoramic view from the Main St.-Houston St. intersection down at least half of Elm St, he set himself up to be the only witness.  The assassin in that far eastern window, 6 floors up was effectively invisible but had an unobstructed view of his target all the way from the Houston St.-Elm St. intersection down to the triple underpass.  Only because he was early to get to his position (or you could say because the parade was late), he had time to look around and scan the area.  With his exceptional far sightedness he was more apt to notice things at a distance than most people.  The sniper could only be seen by possibly a few people on the upper floors of the building across from him, which I think I have read was the jail area.  Every other person had their back to the sniper and their eyes following the parade southward along Houston and then westward.  There was NO reason to look east and UP, nothing was happening there.  Those who were facing northward or eastward also were gazing at street level to the south as the parade approached Elm St and then northward and finally westward.  They had no reason to look up either, there were no balloons in the parade and everybody hanging out windows even if they were looking east, had their eyes focused downward towards the street for the oncoming parade.  Also, from the pictures I've seen of the Dal-Tex building, there are columns of brick accent which run perpendicular to the street and obscure the view of someone looking at the windows from the west unless viewing from around probably 45 degrees or more south of the building.  This is the reason, I think, that the assassin did not even worry about being seen.  He was effectively INVISIBLE.