Generals / Military High Brass at the JFK autopsy

[Joseph McBride]

You can add Clint Hill to the list.

[Joe Bauer]

15 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

Paul O'Connor said Humes told him to go tell whoever was smoking a cigar in the gallery to put it out.  I thought he said he recognized LeMay and felt he was out ranked, couldn't bring himself to request the general put it out.  This version says LeMay refused and blew smoke in O'Connor's face.  I defer to Doug Horne.

JFK Facts » Where was Gen. Curtis LeMay on Nov. 22, 1963?

 

 

Here again, Paul O'Conner and his recollection regards the cigar smoking man are not even remotely acknowledged by credible researchers. O'Conner is once again totally dismissed.

[Joe Bauer]

Excuse me...but what the heck are SS limo driver Bill Greer, Jackie Kennedy's personal SS man Clint Hill and even SS Roy Kellerman doing in the autopsy room?

Yes, they were right in the limo with the wounded JFK, but in what other way were they qualified to be in the fairly limited and super high ranking autopsy observation audience?

Of course one would expect the very highest top military brass such as Joint Chiefs Of Staff to be there and a few other highest rank military like the DC command general.

As well as JFK's personal physician Burkley, head of Bethesda and their surgical department, the FBI of course had to have 2 agents with specific tasks they were assigned and of course the autopsy team and the two techs Paul O'Conner and James Jenkins. One might expect the heads of the FBI and CIA to be there. Maybe Dulles too?

But what is the fairly low level SS tandem of Bill Greer and Clint Hill doing there? They had no specific duties such as the FBI men had in receiving anything of importance as evidence in the FBI investigation. Even Kellerman's presence is questionable.

One might logically expect the top SS man James Crowley to be there.

But, you would think the DC military commander might be in charge of autopsy room screening and would ask each entering person to identify themselves and their need or qualifications for being there.

This was no barbeque with the guys social.

Bill Greer. "I was driving the car".       Oh, okay. Just take a seat there between Admiral Galloway and General McHugh.

Clint Hill. "I jumped on the back of the limo to protect Jackie and cover her and JFK until we got to Parkland.    Oh, okay ...go right in and sit next to General Whele and the White House physician.

Kellerman. "I was head of the Dallas trip assignment."  Oh okay. You failed completely ... but come right in.

I would have thought the screening process in the autopsy room audience selection would have been much more extremely selective and strict.

And it would seem almost self-punishing emotionally for Hill, Greer and Kellerman to sit just feet away from JFK's obliterated death white corpse and watch it being gruesomely violated even more.

They had to stare for hours at the horrific result of a combined failed effort to protect their president. A failed effort they were part of no matter who was negligent or not.

I wouldn't doubt that the bloody visual they experienced in choosing to attend the Bethesda autopsy room that night haunted them the rest of their lives. It would have me.

Still, I can't see why these three guys would have been qualified to have been in that rare company audience. SS head James Rowley for sure. But the limo driver Greer? Jackie's bodyguard Hill?

 

 

Edited December 18, 2020 by Joe Bauer

[Cory Santos]

10 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

Excuse me...but what the heck are SS limo driver Bill Greer, Jackie Kennedy's personal SS man Clint Hill and even SS Roy Kellerman doing in the autopsy room?

Yes, they were right in the limo with the wounded JFK, but in what other way were they qualified to be in the fairly limited and super high ranking autopsy observation audience?

Of course one would expect the very highest top military brass such as Joint Chiefs Of Staff to be there and a few other highest rank military like the DC command general.

As well as JFK's personal physician Burkley, head of Bethesda and their surgical department, the FBI of course had to have 2 agents with specific tasks they were assigned and of course the autopsy team and the two techs Paul O'Conner and James Jenkins. One might expect the heads of the FBI and CIA to be there. Maybe Dulles too?

But what is the fairly low level SS tandem of Bill Greer and Clint Hill doing there? They had no specific duties such as the FBI men had in receiving anything of importance as evidence in the FBI investigation. Even Kellerman's presence is questionable.

One might logically expect the top SS man James Crowley to be there.

But, you would think the DC military commander might be in charge of autopsy room screening and would ask each entering person to identify themselves and their need or qualifications for being there.

This was no barbeque with the guys social.

Bill Greer. "I was driving the car".       Oh, okay. Just take a seat there between Admiral Galloway and General McHugh.

Clint Hill. "I jumped on the back of the limo to protect Jackie and cover her and JFK until we got to Parkland.    Oh, okay ...go right in and sit next to General Whele and the White House physician.

Kellerman. "I was head of the Dallas trip assignment."  Oh okay. You failed completely ... but come right in.

I would have thought the screening process in the autopsy room audence selection would have been much more extremely selective and strict.

And it would seem almost emotionally sadisticly self-punishing for Hill, Greer and Kellerman to want to sit just feet away from JFK's obliterated death white corpse and being gruesomely violated even more.

They had to stare for hours at the horrific result of a combined failed effort to protect their president. A failed effort they were part of no matter who was negligent or not.

I wouldn't doubt that the bloody visual they experienced in choosing to attend the Bethesda autopsy room that night haunted them the rest of their lives. It would have me.

Still, I can't see why these three guys would have been qualified to have been in that rare company audience. SS head James Rowley for sure. But the limo driver Greer? Jackie's bodyguard Hill?

 

 

Well maybe Joe because Hill was protecting Jackie and she was in another room during the autopsy.  So it makes sense for him to be in the building. 

[Pat Speer]

12 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

Excuse me...but what the heck are SS limo driver Bill Greer, Jackie Kennedy's personal SS man Clint Hill and even SS Roy Kellerman doing in the autopsy room?

Yes, they were right in the limo with the wounded JFK, but in what other way were they qualified to be in the fairly limited and super high ranking autopsy observation audience?

Of course one would expect the very highest top military brass such as Joint Chiefs Of Staff to be there and a few other highest rank military like the DC command general.

As well as JFK's personal physician Burkley, head of Bethesda and their surgical department, the FBI of course had to have 2 agents with specific tasks they were assigned and of course the autopsy team and the two techs Paul O'Conner and James Jenkins. One might expect the heads of the FBI and CIA to be there. Maybe Dulles too?

But what is the fairly low level SS tandem of Bill Greer and Clint Hill doing there? They had no specific duties such as the FBI men had in receiving anything of importance as evidence in the FBI investigation. Even Kellerman's presence is questionable.

One might logically expect the top SS man James Crowley to be there.

But, you would think the DC military commander might be in charge of autopsy room screening and would ask each entering person to identify themselves and their need or qualifications for being there.

This was no barbeque with the guys social.

Bill Greer. "I was driving the car".       Oh, okay. Just take a seat there between Admiral Galloway and General McHugh.

Clint Hill. "I jumped on the back of the limo to protect Jackie and cover her and JFK until we got to Parkland.    Oh, okay ...go right in and sit next to General Whele and the White House physician.

Kellerman. "I was head of the Dallas trip assignment."  Oh okay. You failed completely ... but come right in.

I would have thought the screening process in the autopsy room audence selection would have been much more extremely selective and strict.

And it would seem almost emotionally sadisticly self-punishing for Hill, Greer and Kellerman to want to sit just feet away from JFK's obliterated death white corpse and being gruesomely violated even more.

They had to stare for hours at the horrific result of a combined failed effort to protect their president. A failed effort they were part of no matter who was negligent or not.

I wouldn't doubt that the bloody visual they experienced in choosing to attend the Bethesda autopsy room that night haunted them the rest of their lives. It would have me.

Still, I can't see why these three guys would have been qualified to have been in that rare company audience. SS head James Rowley for sure. But the limo driver Greer? Jackie's bodyguard Hill?

 

 

They weren't there for the whole autopsy, Joe. As a representative of the Secret Service, Kellerman was shown the body. He then asked Greer and Hill to view it as well, so they could confirm what he saw to their superiors and to the family. This only made sense. Kellerman had a close working relationship with Greer, and Hill was close with the family.

Believe it or not, an autopsy is not considered a private affair. College students are invited to view them all the time. My brother works in Bio-med--maintaining and fixing medical equipment--and he's witnessed a number of autopsies over the years. 

[Joseph McBride]

I wil never forget when I was working as an orderly in my college years

and had to go to the morgue with a body, as was part of my duties. An autopsy was in progress,

and I had not seen one before. Just as I entered the doctor lifted the brain out of the skull. I almost passed out, but after that I was OK with anything at the hospital. It was a good education -- for a salary of $1.40 an hour. I quit after six months when a nurse ordered me to cut off my goatee and cut my hair. Later the Wisconsin Supreme Court ruled that unconstitutional, but too late for me.

Edited December 18, 2020 by Joseph McBride

[Joe Bauer]

6 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

They weren't there for the whole autopsy, Joe. As a representative of the Secret Service, Kellerman was shown the body. He then asked Greer and Hill to view it as well, so they could confirm what he saw to their superiors and to the family. This only made sense. Kellerman had a close working relationship with Greer, and Hill was close with the family.

Believe it or not, an autopsy is not considered a private affair. College students are invited to view them all the time. My brother works in Bio-med--maintaining and fixing medical equipment--and he's witnessed a number of autopsies over the years. 

Pat. I am sure you have read much more than me regards the autopsy and activities of those in the observation area. Even though I would like to know what sources you cite in stating how long Greer, Hill and Kellerman were in the autopsy room and why they were there?

I am going to read their Warren Commission testimonies to see if this is where the information on their autopsy room visits comes from. If it is and they were not there long but for a very brief view for their own sad motivation curiosity then I could understand more why they were allowed in?

I do think that just anyone ( students, other doctors and staff and certainly no press ) could not drop in even to get a quick morbid curiosity look at JFK's body and the procedure. In this case there had to have been screeners.

Could you share where you read about the three SS agents and the specific information explaining their brief presence in the JFK autopsy scene?

Joseph McBride's autopsy "brain removal" fainting story is hilarious. I too would have felt weak seeing something like that for the first time. 

As I mentioned, I am sure that most in the autopsy observation audience surely must have had many bad recollection dreams about seeing JFK's dead open eyes and naked pale body cut open in front of them.

Just like all those in the Parkland ER room with JFK who seemed emotionally effected in recollecting their feelings even decades later.  Talk about a traumatic experience.

Below is an excerpt from SS driver Bill Greer's Warren Commission testimony:

Mr. GREER. I returned on Air Force 1 with the President's remains.
Mr. SPECTER. And at approximately what time did you leave Dallas to fly back?
Mr. GREER. I would have to look in my reports to say exactly. I would have to go back on the times. Two something but I don't remember.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any idea of the time you arrived in the Washington area?
Mr. GREER. I believe it was 6 or 6:15. As I say I have it in my reports but I haven't looked at the times recently.
Mr. SPECTER. Where did you arrive in the Washington area?
Mr. GREER. At Andrews Air Force Base.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you do next in connection with this matter?
Mr. GREER. I helped to get the casket out of the plane, and put it into a Navy ambulance and then I drove that Navy ambulance to Bethesda Naval Center.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you do upon arriving at the Bethesda Naval Center?

Mr. GREER. I stayed in, while the autopsy was being performed, I stayed in the autopsy room with Mr. Kellerman and the doctors and the people who were in there. I stayed in there and observed what was necessary that I could do.

Mr. SPECTER. Were any Secret Service Agents present besides you and Mr. Kellerman?
Mr. GREER. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. At the autopsy?
Mr. GREER. There may have been, Mr. Hill may have come in and out but he didn't stay there.

Mr. Kellerman and I stayed permanently the whole time there.

There may have been, Mr. Hill may have come in there and have gone back out but he didn't stay in there.

 

 

 

Edited December 18, 2020 by Joe Bauer

[Pat Speer]

I stand corrected, Joe. Greer was with Kellerman the whole time. I thought he was brought in later, like Hill. 

In any event, there is nothing surprising about this. The FBI had two men at the autopsy and there was no way the SS was gonna let there be more FBI men at the autopsy than SS men. 

 

[Allen Lowe]

On 12/16/2020 at 8:05 PM, Paul Brancato said:

I have not seen this before. Where did you read the info from the younger Galbraith? Btw I agree with you about the Military being central to the plot. 

 

Most interesting point indeed. What I recall was the description of LeMay’s adjutant desperately trying to find LeMay, but now that I think about it I’m pretty sure he was trying to locate LeMay’s aircraft, which was on its way to DC. There’s still a lot missing from the AF 1 tapes, and my conjecture is that LeMay’s guy was trying to alert his boss to the change of location for the autopsy. You are right that the story as it stands supports the idea that LeMay was not involved in the plot but called in afterwards. That isn’t so surprising by itself of course. But if we combine this story with LeMay actually being at the autopsy itself, not just back in DC in case there were any subsequent events following the assassination, it takes on a different meaning. That supports your suggestion that there was a cover story. I’ve wondered how it was that LeMay got himself to an airport so quickly. So I’ll go with the cover story idea, and that the info being conveyed to him while he was aloft was where to land in DC. I did look that up at one time, and there was no doubt that the airport he chose was the only one convenient to the autopsy location. 

 

James Galbraith wrote about this somewhere, and he and I emailed back and forth a few years ago about it. I will have to see if I can still find a link.

[Keyvan Shahrdar]

Where was Gen. Curtis LeMay on Nov. 22, 1963?

https://jfkfacts.org/a-note-on-curtis-lemays-actions-on-nov-22/

 

Edited January 19, 2021 by Keyvan Shahrdar

[Joe Bauer]

2 hours ago, Keyvan Shahrdar said:

Where was Gen. Curtis LeMay on Nov. 22, 1963?

https://jfkfacts.org/a-note-on-curtis-lemays-actions-on-nov-22/

 

Think about this.

Let's say Navy Corpsman medical tech Paul O'Conner just made up this story about Commander Humes complaining about cigar smoke while he ( Humes) is involved in the most important, emotionally intense, shocking and stressful event and assignment of his life.

And O'Conner saying Humes told him to find the smoker and ask him to put this out.

Which O'Conner says he did.

Then, as if that JFK autopsy recollection isn't off-the-wall odd enough, O'Conner then "doubles down" risking his credibility further by adding on an even more bizarre anecdotal account of General LeMay not only ignoring O'Conner's stated Humes request but enhancing that arrogant kiss off by blowing cigar smoke in O'Conner's face!

One has to consider Paul O'Conner's sense of self-respect and desire for credibility.

Why risk that by making up a story like this that is so off-the-wall even O'Conner would have known it could have really hurt his credibility...if it were not true.

Edited January 19, 2021 by Joe Bauer

[Guest]

Just something I may have picked up

on here, after reading the comments below a link about LeMay being at the autopsy. It suggests he was visiting a base outside of Toronto.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_X

This base also carries the name; ‘The Farm’. It was used by the OSS in WWII.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_Peary

In James W Douglass’ book; The Unspeakable or Brothers by David Talbot (I forget which) there is reference to Dulles being at a CIA facility the whole weekend. Is it possible Dulles could have been at the same facility as Le May? 

 

 

 

 

[Ron Bulman]

24 minutes ago, Chris Barnard said:

Just something I may have picked up

on here, after reading the comments below a link about LeMay being at the autopsy. It suggests he was visiting a base outside of Toronto.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_X

This base also carries the name; ‘The Farm’. It was used by the OSS in WWII.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_Peary

In James W Douglass’ book; The Unspeakable or Brothers by David Talbot (I forget which) there is reference to Dulles being at a CIA facility the whole weekend. Is it possible Dulles could have been at the same facility as Le May? 

 

 

 

 

No.  The Farm where Dulles safe house / command post where he spent the Assassination weekend is in Langley Virginia.  LeMay was reportedly out of the country conveniently over the border in Canada near or at a former US base there at the time of the Assassination. 

[Guest]

11 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

No.  The Farm where Dulles safe house / command post where he spent the Assassination weekend is in Langley Virginia.  LeMay was reportedly out of the country conveniently over the border in Canada near or at a former US base there at the time of the Assassination. 

Thanks Ron. All this does paint a picture. I would love to see a list of where al the other generals were too. 

[Calvin Ye]

On 12/16/2020 at 4:15 AM, Chris Barnard said:

Morning guys, 

I saw a quip on a thread the other day suggesting Curtis Le May was at the Bethesda autopsy, is this just conjecture? Do we know which members of military high brass were in attendance directing or observing the proceedings? If so, what is the source material?

Thanks

Chris

It is not conjecture. It is for real. Hard evidence of this is long lost Air Force tapes

Edited February 13, 2021 by Calvin Ye