Can We Agree that Allen Dulles was a Ringmaster of the JFKA?

[Jim Hargrove]

Just wondering . . . .

Edited August 31, 2021 by Jim Hargrove

[Richard Booth]

29 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Just wondering . . . .

Dulles and Angleton

[Richard Booth]

1 minute ago, Richard Booth said:

Dulles and Angleton

Regular meetings at Dulles' home, post-firing

It wasn't to discuss the preakness or make their horse bets...

Edited August 31, 2021 by Richard Booth

[Benjamin Cole]

Jim H-

Just my two cents...

Allen Dulles may, or may not have, directed the JFKA. 

We have seen a lot of people of late "convicted" in public of crimes, based on accusations and circumstances. As well as ordinary Joes accused.

Maybe you despise a Trump, a Cuomo, or a Clinton or  Dulles.  That's fine. 

But until we see a vigorous defense in a court of law, and accusers grilled by cross-examination...and then a conviction before a jury of peers, then I am not convinced.  

My guess is the CIA perpetrated a huge cover-up after the JFKA, and that lower level CIA assets did the deed. The CIA top chiefs may have ordered the hit on LHO, using Mob assets. 

I am no fan of the CIA. The CIA has been instrumental in an interventionist foreign-military policy on behalf of multinational interests, that is not in US interests, as well as being fantastically expensive and counterproductive. Think Vietnam, Afghanistan. But much more too. 

But who actually ordered the JFKA?  

 

[Ron Bulman]

Yes, but he didn't own the Circus.  He worked for the owners.

Edited August 31, 2021 by Ron Bulman

[Guest]

23 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

Yes, but he didn't own the Circus.  He worked for the owners.

I think that too. He worked on behalf of certain interests that had common objectives that were incompatible with idealism, world peace, and some sense of equality in the world.
A structure and system was in place that was delivering perfectly for them and JFK was increasingly a spanner in the works, what is more, his popularity was growing, his ideas were infectious.

[Chuck Schwartz]

Dulles, the architect.  Angleton, LeMay major players.  DAP, David Morales and E. Howard Hunt and Sturgis major implementers. Helms long term cover up enforcement. Roselli, trafficante minor enforcers.

[Jim Hargrove]

So much agreement here is surprising!  David Talbot captured the big picture when he reviewed all Dulles’s assassination plots and other shenanigans in Iran, Guatemala, Italy, France, the Congo, Cuba, and let’s add the U.S.  Whoever else may have been involved in the JFKA, we all seem to pretty much agree that Dulles played a pivotal role, and not only in the cover-up.  

As Richard Booth pointed out above, Dulles regularly met with Angleton after he (Dulles) was fired.  Mr. Talbot indicated that Dulles was at the CIA’s sprawling “Farm” (Camp Peary in VA) in November 1963.

To Mr. Cole – I understand your point about legal proof, but we’ll probably never get a real trial like you describe, and I’d like the world to know what the available evidence seems to show regarding what really happened.

Mr. Schwartz – Interesting list.  Thanks.  Should we add Clay Shaw?  The Agency’s Ray Rocca (surely among other personnel) apparently thought Shaw would be convicted for conspiring in the hit.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=6515#relPageId=2&tab=page

 

[David Andrews]

12 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

We have seen a lot of people of late "convicted" in public of crimes, based on accusations and circumstances. As well as ordinary Joes accused.

 

Truthfully, JFKA researchers have as much legal evidence to convict any planners and assassins as any lone nutters have to convict Oswald.  Clay Shaw was as close as it got, and that was a worthy investigation that was sabotaged and mismanaged before trial.

Discuss?

Otherwise, Jim - I vote Aye on Dulles.

[W. Niederhut]

I agree with all of the above, but I also believe that Allen Dulles's favorite black ops guy, General Ed Lansdale, belongs on the list-- as Prouty believed.

Oddly, Prouty never had much to say about Lansdale's relationship with General Curtis LeMay-- but surely those two high level USAF officers must have had some sort of working relationship in 1963.

In any case, Lansdale had a close relationship with Dulles, and with the anti-Castro Operation Mongoose squad, before conveniently "retiring" on November 1, 1963.

Edited August 31, 2021 by W. Niederhut

[Pete Mellor]

26 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

I agree with all of the above, but I also believe that Allen Dulles's favorite black ops guy, General Ed Lansdale, belongs on the list-- as Prouty believed.

Oddly, Prouty never had much to say about Lansdale's relationship with General Curtis LeMay-- but surely those two high level USAF officers must have had some sort of working relationship in 1963.

In any case, Lansdale had a close relationship with Dulles, and with the anti-Castro Operation Mongoose squad, before conveniently "retiring" on November 1, 1963.

Mentioning LeMay...something I only recently came across, but which could well have stoked LeMay's ire was a project that in 1963 had run for 17 years and had by then cost around $7 billion.  Between the U.S.A.F. and the Atomic Energy Commission efforts were made to launch a nuclear powered aircraft!

Faced with objections relating to the dangers of flying over cities, it was scrapped by JFK at the time of the Partial (Atmospheric) Test Ban Treaty in '63.

[W. Niederhut]

4 minutes ago, Pete Mellor said:

Mentioning LeMay...something I only recently came across, but which could well have stoked LeMay's ire was a project that in 1963 had run for 17 years and had by then cost around $7 billion.  Between the U.S.A.F. and the Atomic Energy Commission efforts were made to launch a nuclear powered aircraft!

Faced with objections relating to the dangers of flying over cities, it was scrapped by JFK at the time of the Partial (Atmospheric) Test Ban Treaty in '63.

Curtis LeMay, certainly, had a bizarre love of bombs.

He orchestrated the genocidal fire bombing of Tokyo and other Japanese cities in WWII.

I think he may have also supervised the annihilation of Pyong Yang during the Korean War.

And, if I recall correctly from Oliver Stone's Untold History, he was hell bent on bombing Cuba back to the Stone Age in October of 1962-- while simultaneously nuking China and the U.S.S.R.

[Pete Mellor]

Jim, There are so many reasons that can be attached for reasons behind Dallas as we all know.

For me, one topic that is rarely aired is Indonesia.  Having read Poulgrain's 'JFK vs Allen Dulles' although he was no longer Director, Dulles' plans for the coup against Sukarno and his secret knowledge of the billions in natural resources, it was vital for these plans that JFK was no longer in the White House.

[Anthony Thorne]

I'll need to (re) dig up the references and data to cite it accurately, but when I was going through the post WW2 background of Dulles, McCloy, the CFR, the Rockefeller Foundation and various WW2 armaments interests late last year, the who-was-doing-what-and-when stuff I wrote down had McCloy higher up the chain, for decades, than Dulles was, and Dulles was frequently working for various interests where Dulles was on a panel of ten guys, but McCloy was the chair. This was the pattern for a great long while. And if you view Dulles (as some have already suggested) as being the front guy for a bigger group of interests, it makes sense, as does the smirking presence of McCloy on the Warren Commission.

A couple of years after the JFK assassination, the Pentagon and a few folk put together a study group to discuss (over a long year or two) what had gone wrong during the Cuban missile crisis. Andrew Marshall, later the 'Yoda' at the Pentagon who gave the neocons top level advice for decades, was a key figure. The group settled down at Harvard, and conducted sessions run by Ernest May, who had been the official historian for the Joint Chiefs during the 50's, and who remained a trusted Pentagon advisor for decades afterwards. The group was informally known as 'the May group', as he was nominally the head of it.

May's assistant during the sessions, the guy who kept notes and took records and opened discussions, was Graham Allison, and the Pentagon was so happy with his work that they funded a special new department at Harvard, paid for a new building there, let Allison approve the architecture, and put Allison in charge of the department, where he remained as head or co-head or Dean for the next three or four decades, in-between his stints on the National Security Council and serving as a top advisor to Dick Cheney.

Edward Epstein's (later) Harvard advisors were involved in the study group discussions, and Epstein, the INQUEST author who later became the turncoat who attacked JFK assassination researchers, was then taken under their wing when he went to Harvard in the late 60's. 

John McCloy was a high-level supporter of Allison's department at Harvard - the Kennedy School of Government - and appears (by name and photographically) in offical histories of it. Thereafter through the 70's and onwards, the Kennedy School served as a training ground for incipient Pentagon folk who were picked to have a bright future ahead of them, guys who understood the party line and the overall thrust of what the military industrial complex was pushing for. Allison thereafter also had his pick of retiring Pentagon folk to serve on the staff there, with a lot of applicants putting their hands up. And Allison's coterie of specialised experts wired into the national security state were kept busy in an active advisory capacity through the 70's, the 80's, the 90's and beyond.

 

[Chuck Schwartz]

Jim H., Clay Shaw, Guy Bannister, Ferrie and probably some anti Castro Cubans were all in New Orleans the same time LHO was there and they probably had something to do with setting up LHO as the patsy for the killing of JFK.