Documents released 12/15/21

[W. Tracy Parnell]

28 minutes ago, Michaleen Kilroy said:

I don’t believe a word the CIA has said on JFKA, full stop.

Then I assume you don't believe the "apparently by car" thing either.

[Michaleen Kilroy]

5 minutes ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

Then I assume you don't believe the "apparently by car" thing either.

I knew you’d say that. 

[Steve Thomas]

1 hour ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

One document from the CIA said that. Doesn't make it a fact. The totality of the evidence produces facts. 

Tracy,

Yes, but that document is billed as a "summary" of relevant information that they had, so it must have been drawn from several sources.

Steve Thomas

Edited December 16, 2021 by Steve Thomas

[W. Tracy Parnell]

7 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said:

Tracy,

Yes, but document is billed as a "summary" of relevant information that they had, the so it must have been drawn from several sources.

Steve Thomas

First, let me say Steve that I am not trying to pick on you specifically. My exchanges with you have been mostly positive as I recall and that is rare here so I appreciate that.

I would answer that if you could produce a document that was used as a source for this summary (regarding the "car" thing) that would be interesting. For me though, I doubt that a single document would supercede the extensive WC/FBI investigation regarding how LHO got to MC. Your opinion may differ and that is ok.

Edited December 16, 2021 by W. Tracy Parnell

[Steve Thomas]

51 minutes ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

First, let me say Steve that I am not trying to pick on you specifically. My exchanges with you have been mostly positive as I recall and that is rare here so I appreciate that.

I would answer that if you could produce a document that was used as a source for this summary (regarding the "car" thing) that would be interesting. For me though, I doubt that a single document would supercede the extensive WC/FBI investigation regarding how LHO got to MC. Your opinion may differ and that is ok.

Tracy,

I feel the same.

We might not always agree on some things, but that's OK.

As far as this particular document goes, I have to admit that I haven't studied the whole Mexican trip in any depth, so I can't speak very authoritatively on it. I'm just a newbie.

I don't know if there are any other CIA documents that say he got there by car. That would be nice to find.

I have always wondered what happened to the two people who allegedly visited Sylviia Odio with Oswald. They just seem to have disappeared from the historical record. Did they drive him down to Mexico? I don't know.  They don't seem to show up in Alice, TX either.

As far as the WC/FBI goes, as I understand it, the WC relied on the FBI almost exclusively for their investigative work. The information that shows up in the WC Report about the "bus trip" is almost entirely FBI information.

Just as a side note,, one thing I was interested in was that Oswlad supposedly took a Continental Trailways bus.

Frank Brandstetter was heavily involved in Continental. He owned all their kitchens.

Is there some coincidence there? I don't know.

There's a lot I don't know.

Steve Thomas

[Gene Kelly]

The document is interesting as it states he entered (apparently by car) on the 26th (a Thursday), and he then does the embassy visits (Friday and Saturday), talks to the infamous Kostikov (allegedly a "wet works" specialist) on October 1st, and then drives back to Laredo a week later (on 10/3).  But it doesn't insinuate or mention that he had companions or was accompanied by anyone.  Plus, our patsy LHO apparently didn't drive ... so it could've been Leon. It would be good to compare these logistics with those offered by Richard Nagell, who observed/interacted with LHO and two companions in Mexico. 

Compare the best estimate date given for the Silvia Odio visit (Wednesday 9/25) ... with a call back by Leopoldo on Friday, emphasizing the gun, "loco", JFK animosity, Bay of Pigs etc.  It fits (although it's quite a lot of driving). What particularly stands out and strikes me is that the Odio visitors emphasized several times that they were "going on a trip".   In that context, it all seems to be a setup, as a legend is being created. 

I have also come to view the FBI's actions (and subsequent stories) as an effort to protect their reputation - not necessarily to assist in the assassination - as this was also painting Hoover into a corner (if we believe that LHO was being run by the FBI).  Hoover and FBI are being blackmailed and cannot allow LHO to be painted as their agent, meeting with the bad guys ... so they obfuscate and produce disinformation, to dissociate themselves from Oswald. It also seems a transparent effort to implicate and discredit Manolo Ray and JURE (via Silvia), as they had to know she would relay this information to her father.  Now Manolo has culpable knowledge or Mens Rea.  He too is being set up. 

And it strongly appears that the Soviets (and Cubans) were also being set up and blackmailed.  No wonder Nagell had orders to inform and/or eliminate Oswald (and that he had himself arrested).  It's a wonder he lasted another 30 years (Nagell died from 'heart disease' on November 1, 1995, in Los Angeles, one day after the ARRB had sent him a letter asking for information).  Pretty slick psychological operation (by someone who knew just how all of this works).   

Gene

[Gene Kelly]

Tracy

I'm also thinking you've made a good point.  One document (classified, and finally released 57 years later) doesn't mean it's the "ground truth".  What's clearer to me now is that this is linked to the Odio visit, that there were two Oswald's of interest (Lee and Leon), and that Nagell's story is a very credible and important contribution.  CIA was playing the FBI and had Hoover over a barrel with all of this, as the name Oswald became radioactive to all parties. 

I sure wish that we could see what was in Win Scott's safe, which Angleton quickly stole/hid.

Gene

[Ron Ecker]

And the MSM never fails. CNN's Smerconish has always struck me as a pretty perceptive guy, but in reporting last night on the documents release (he has apparently replaced Cuomo in prime time) he toed the party line and then some. He had as his guest what he called the man "who wrote the book" on the JFK case, Gerald Posner. Smerconish also said that he (Smerconish) had been a good friend of Arlen Specter, and that whenever Smerconish would mention the single bullet theory, Specter would correct him, calling it "the single bullet conclusion."

 

 

[James DiEugenio]

That anyone lends and credence to Parnell today is simply stunning.  I have him on ignore.  But when others quote him I have to look at his stuff aka junk.

Steve says he is a newbie to Mexico City.  I am not.

It is very clear from the last batch of docs on Mexico City that the CIA was at a loss to trace Oswald's methods of getting into and out of the country.  They sent out contacts to every possible method he could have done so. They were further dumfounded when they did an inventory check and found no photos of Oswald anyplace where he was supposed to be.

There are records by Mexican authorities,  American civilian sources, and at least one FBI agent, that  state Oswald was in a car upon departing and suggest he was in a car when arriving. (Armstrong, Harvey and Lee, pp. 677-79)

But further for anyone to state that the FBI did a thorough job on this subject is enough to make anyone who knows anything about it vomit. It is  very clear from both Armstrong and Shenon that even the WC was puzzled as to why the Bureau let Echeverria and Ochoa do all the initial work on this.  Because this then put the Bureau in a very difficult position of either verifying suspect evidence, or saying these guys made stuff up, which is what they did. For obvious reasons, that even Parnell can figure out, the FBI and CIA did not want Oswald arriving or leaving by car. For instance, on March 12, 1964 Hoover wrote to Mexico City, "Until we can prove Oswald was on a bus, this possibility will always exist that he left by automobile as indicated in Mexican Immigration Records. " So much for Parnell's  one CIA document.

What happened was that the Mexican authorities literally seized records of the bus companies and crossed out original dates and wrote in names of bus drivers, and actually wrote the name of 'Oswld" (sic) in certain passenger spaces.  But the bus ticket number was left blank. This was for the departure. (Armstrong, p. 662). In light of the above, it is important to note that these records were seized by the Mexican authorities before the FBI got them or the WC got them.  But there were some records that just completely went missing.  Like certain bus manifests.

But when the FBI went over these altered records, they found out that Echeverria and Ochoa had done a sloppy job.  Because, for instance, on the departure,  the Transportes Frontera Bus no. 340 could not connect with the Greyhound bus  to get Oswald into Dallas in time for his meeting with the TEC. (ibid)

This is what Parnell calls a thorough inquiry. That anyone can still be influenced by his pomposity is really puzzling. To me, he long ago was exposed as the Wizard of Oz.

Edited December 16, 2021 by James DiEugenio

[W. Tracy Parnell]

2 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

There are records by Mexican authorities,  American civilian sources, and at least one FBI agent, that  state Oswald was in a car upon departing and suggest he was in a car when arriving. (Armstrong, Harvey and Lee, pp. 677-79)

Armstrong's entire book is based on inconsistencies in the record. But police, FBI and other seasoned investigators know that such inconsistencies will occur in any investigation. In a case like this where there are thousands or possibly millions of pieces of information, there will be hundreds or thousands of inconsistencies.

Armstrong relies on a statment that Oswald traveled by "auto." But even he admits that the Spanish word for bus is "autobus" although he says it is "not normally" abriviated as auto. But it could have been in this case. And the WC/FBI investigation which included meticulously tracing the bus route and speaking ot witnesses who rode with LHO showed that this had to be an error.

Armstrong includes other things like a newspaper article (who knows where they got it from) and a witness from Alice Texas stating that Oswald and his wife were there (they were not) driving a 1953 Chevy which we know they did not own.

So, I will concede that there is "evidence" of the "car" thing beyond the document we were discussing. But I don't find any of it convincing.

EDIT: Here are a few documents lending support to the "auto" thing being a mistake:

showDoc.html (maryferrell.org)

showDoc.html (maryferrell.org)

showDoc.html (maryferrell.org)

Edited December 16, 2021 by W. Tracy Parnell

[Gene Kelly]

Ron:

FWIW, Smerconish has been a popular talk show host in Philadelpha for quite a while. In my experience, he has always been a breath of fresh.  He's a Philly guy, so I have some bias here.  I would bet that - if we were to educate him about the JFK case - he would come around and acknowledge the truth.  It's a shame that he accepts the Posner rubbish, but it shows how deeply embedded the MSM mantra has become. 

Smerconish was born in Doylestown, Pennsylvania and graduated from Central Bucks High School West, a high school near where I live. He received a degree from Lehigh and his JD from the University of Pennsylvania Law School. Smerconish had a close relationship with the Democratic Mayor of Philadelphia, Frank Rizzo.  In 1986, he was involved in Senator Arlen Specter's re-election win.  He is also of counsel to the Philadelphia law firm of Kline & Specter.  He has urged the Republican Party to pursue "moderation on social issues in order to advance a suburban agenda for the GOP".  In 2010, he announced in a newspaper column that he had left the Republican Party.

He describes himself as a talk show host who was a lawyer (vice a lawyer who is a talk show host.)  Philadelphia Magazine named him the City's best talk show host in 2004.  When in 2007, MSNBC fired Don Imus for a racial slur, Smerconish was guest host, and his role then became one of appearing daily with Tamron Hall, host of News Nation, and as a guest host of Hardball for five years. In early 2014, Smerconish left MSNBC broadcast on CNN Saturdays at 9:00 am ET. He also writes a Sunday column in The Philadelphia Inquirer.  He argues the Republican party today does not resemble the one he joined in 1980, largely due to politicians taking cues from the media.

Gene

[James DiEugenio]

Seems like a bright guy.

And he has Posner on his show?

[Robert Burrows]

1 hour ago, James DiEugenio said:

Seems like a bright guy.

And he has Posner on his show?

No doubt a bright guy, one smart enough to toe the party line. 

[James DiEugenio]

LOL. Nice one.

[Jim Hargrove]

22 hours ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

So, I will concede that there is "evidence" of the "car" thing beyond the document we were discussing. But I don't find any of it convincing.

Of course not, but there were many witness who knew a "Lee Harvey Oswald" could drive a car and even some who knew he had a Texas driver's license.  Whatever you do, DO NOT follow the link below to see just how many people said "Oswald" DID drive.

The Man Who Could--And Couldn't--Drive