Documents released 12/15/21

[Paul Brancato]

2 hours ago, Larry Hancock said:

I don't think we will ever fully resolve the question of Oswald personally being in Mexico - or Mexico City.  Certainly there is good reason to question that he was ever at the Cuban consulate.  Is it possible the Russians totally  lied about his visit to their facility - maybe.  Could everything else about the trip including souvenirs have been planted, maybe, not sure of the point in that. Was there considerable evidence immediately after the fact for the agencies to be in chaos about his being there - absolutely.  Does the trip make sense if he was trying to get Russian permission to return Marina - yes, that is consistent with his letters.

In our upcoming paper on the Red Bird Leads David and I discuss one more reason that at least getting Oswald into Mexico if not to Mexico City was important to the some of the conspirators in terms of  setting up a Cuban connection to the attack on the President, however aside that I don't pretend to know anything other than the official story of his visit, involving both Cuban and Russian contacts, is something the CIA desperately wanted to minimize - and I've written very specifically as to why that was and what operations it would have compromised. The official story is bogus, there is good reason to know even Hoover was quite aware of that.

But specifically to this thread, the additional document which mentions Oswald traveling to Mexico, and offers a statement about his occupation, is also consistent and to me supports the idea that he was driven to others at least to the border. In regard to the scenario I favor that makes perfect sense and I can certainly see the FBI, the CIA and the WC eager to obfuscate any evidence Oswald was in involved with others only weeks before the assassination. I guess I'm not sure why we would want to dismiss that out of hand.

 

Larry - I want to make sure I get what you wrote. Are you saying that CIA and others would withhold visual proof of Oswald in MC if they had it? I’ve always thought as Mr. Ness stated that the lack of visual proof is a good argument against LHO in MC. Wasn’t the point to tie LHO to Cubans and Russians? Perhaps there was a change when LBJ took over and cooler heads sought to minimize the LHO/Cuban and Russian ties, the very ones that had been baked in to the plan by the conspirators? 
 

 

[Larry Hancock]

Sorry, no that's not what I meant to say or infer.  My point was that I conclude that the CIA would have withheld information showing that there was a telephone impersonation of Oswald calling from the Cuban embassy (which the FBI appears to have discovered, even using "technical" resources).  They would also have withheld any photographic evidence that showed that Oswald was not the individual at the Cuban consulate - which it also appears that they did. That would have been to conceal their own activities in an operation against the Cubans.  

Of course that could lead to other problems and other issues of obfuscation or alteration about Oswald being in Mexico or Mexico City.  I was only commenting on what I think happened with the Cubans in Mexico City. 

However I do believe,  that within 48 hours there were high level orders - from the White House - to suppress any leads that pointed to Oswald being in association with others and that made for even more chaos in manipulating records related to Mexico. That would have been in conjunction with the order to the FBI to write a report confirming Oswald as the lone assassin, acting with no association with others. How complex that could have gotten is pure speculation but I do recall Hosty telling me personally that his agent friends in MC had photos of Oswald during his time there - he did seem very sincere about that. 

Bottom line, events seem to have made Mexico the ultimate black hole for our research...

[Bob Ness]

Chuck Todd had a nice interview with Jeff Morely on the release this morning on MTP daily.

[Matt Allison]

2 hours ago, Bob Ness said:

Chuck Todd had a nice interview with Jeff Morely on the release this morning on MTP daily.

Can't stand Chuck Todd but MSNBC has consistently reported on any new developments.

[Bob Ness]

26 minutes ago, Matt Allison said:

Can't stand Chuck Todd but MSNBC has consistently reported on any new developments.

Did you see it? Was pretty good re document release. They went over the CIA knowing about LHO at a high level prior to the deed. Unfortunately, Morely didn't go over what to me obviously follows; that the CIA and FBI took down the advisory about him being in Dallas a month before (which would have allowed the advance team to investigate) and then the motorcade was rerouted to where he worked.

Doesn't take Fellini to figure out why that may have happened.

Edited December 22, 2021 by Bob Ness

[Sandy Larsen]

My opinion is that Mexico City is the key to understanding the assassination plot.

Please read the following carefully as it has a couple of twists in it....

My working theory is that the CIA's plot was designed to trick the FBI into believing that Oswald was part of a Russian/Cuban plot to killed the president. Oswald wasn't painted as a gunman, but rather as a plotter who had contacts in America who would perform the assassination. He was in Mexico City to negotiate with Russian and Cuban agents (e.g. Kostikov and Leonov), and to collect a $6500 down payment for the hit.

Furthermore, the CIA's plot would trick the FBI into believing that the hit team in America was a group of far-right Americans (e.g. Banister and Ferrie) and anti-Castro Cubans. Oswald was in Mexico City representing this group.

So the (real) CIA plot had Oswald working with the far right in America and the communists in Mexico City. It was a false flag operation designed to justify war with the the communists. And to point the FBI investigation in America to the far-right, away from the CIA.

This theory explains a lot of seeming mysteries and  inconsistencies in the evidence.

 

Edited December 24, 2021 by Sandy Larsen

[Sandy Larsen]

5 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

This theory explains a lot of seeming mysteries and  inconsistencies in the evidence.

 

For example, it explains why Oswald was allowed by his CIA handler to go outside to see the "p. parade." It wasn't he doing the shooting,

I believe he was out there with a camera. The bright spot near his right hand is from the viewfinder lens of the camera. (One of our forum members demonstrated years ago how a certain kind of camera back then would shine light out that lens. And I showed how Prayer Man's (Oswald's) arms in the film would rise consistent with the way they would when raising such a camera, with the right arm rising more than the left arm in order to rotate the camera 90 degrees, as would be needed to take a picture.)

 

Edited December 23, 2021 by Sandy Larsen

[Sandy Larsen]

17 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

This theory explains a lot of seeming mysteries and  inconsistencies in the evidence.

The last Oswald telephone call to the embassy was the only one that used the name "Oswald." That call was necessary in order for the CIA (those unaware of the assassination plot) to discover the Mexico City trip and link it to Oswald. And then report it to the FBI. The purpose of the other calls were to show the FBI that Oswald was involved with others in a conspiracy. Same thing with the impersonator.

The impersonator was blond, and this was so he matched the blond mystery man photo. Win Scott recognized the blond mystery man as KGB agent Nikolai Leonov, and sent it to J.C. King with the note saying "a certain person known to you." This photo was hidden from the Warren Commission. (BTW, the Cubans somehow had a copy of this photo and told news reporters in the 1970s that the U.S. government should release it.)

One of the telephone calls mentions KGB agent Kostikov.

So Kostikov, Leonov, and the other mystery man were implicated. At least that is what the FBI was supposed to believe. (I believe that the other, heavyset, mystery man was also KGB, but unknown to Win Scott and to us.)

 

[Tony Rose]

On 12/20/2021 at 8:49 PM, Benjamin Cole said:

On balance, I find Nagell a dubious fixture in the JFKA literature. BTW, Nagell says LHO shot at JFK, but was assisted by others. 

 

 

Why are you dubious about Nagell?  I've never seen any documentation that contradicts anything he has said.  Aren't the contents of his automobile trunk upon his arrest, documented?

[Benjamin Cole]

6 hours ago, Tony Rose said:

Why are you dubious about Nagell?  I've never seen any documentation that contradicts anything he has said.  Aren't the contents of his automobile trunk upon his arrest, documented?

Tony R:

Well, fair question, and I would have to go back and check everything but...

Nagell's story about working for the Russians and that he was supposed to assassinate LHO to prevent the JFKA...seems like a stretch. 

On numerous occasions Nagell claims to have done something and documented that, but that the documents had been stolen by the FBI or others. Which means we, the public, have no documentation. 

Nagell dilly-dallied with the author Russell for decades, and if Nagell had a solid story to tell with documents, he never delivered. He claimed there was a purple trunk in Tucson or somewhere with all the proof, but of course that trunk was missing, when looked for after Nagell's death.

Nagell's LHO ID card could have been fabricated by obtaining a copy of Chief Curry's book, and making a copy of the LHO card therein. 

Another example is that Nagell claims to have sent a letter to the FBI forewarning of the pending JFKA, but he did not bother to send dupes to other multiple other locations to remain unopened but time-stamped by the Post Office, which would have corroborated the act. 

My understanding is Nagell's lawyer in his possession had documents, but again the provenance is uncertain. 

My take: In the end, Nagell is not necessary to an understanding of the JFKA, and he could provide LN'ers with ammo. But others have other viewpoints....

 

[Greg Doudna]

This article by David Reitzes sure seems devastating on the credibility of the Nagell story. The claims are so wild and unverified, so many impossibilities and contradictions indicating he was just making the stuff up. Rabbit hole city, my take on it. https://www.jfk-assassination.net/nagell3.htm.

[Paul Brancato]

Nagell’s story doesn’t make sense to me either 

 

[Benjamin Cole]

8 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

This article by David Reitzes sure seems devastating on the credibility of the Nagell story. The claims are so wild and unverified, so many impossibilities and contradictions indicating he was just making the stuff up. Rabbit hole city, my take on it. https://www.jfk-assassination.net/nagell3.htm.

Verily, Reitzes story that is pretty tough on Nagell, but fair.

My concern about Nagell is that by citing Nagell's claims as evidence of the JFKA, the research community can open itself up to charges of biased and sloppy research.  

There are a lot of hard facts out there, in the Z film, the numerous witnesses who smelled gunsmoke in Dealey Plaza in the immediate aftermath of the shooting, the ersatz CE 399, and LHO's curious personal history. 

The mysterious murder of LHO, and the Warren Commission's record and decision to prosecute, and not investigate LHO.

There is the feeble HSCA concluding that JFK had likely been assassinated as a result of a conspiracy.

The JFKA research community does not need the Nagell story. Parts of the guy's story could even be true, but which parts?  Giving Nagell every benefit of the doubt, he was the target of a misinformation campaign, and driven crazy by circumstance, inner demons, and perhaps even CIA drugs. But that still leaves us with an uncertain story. 

[Larry Hancock]

Having researched at length and then written about Nagell myself I fully sympathize with the issues raised in this thread.  I followed Dick Russell down that path, getting hundreds of documents which do tie down certain aspects of Nagell and wrote about him at some length in SWHT.   However more importantly I created CD which contains the documents and papers for what I call a "situational analysis" given that his story evolved over time based on what was happening to him personally, his trial, his wife's taking their children, his negotiations with the CIA to enlist aid in recoveringthem (which actually is pretty well corroborated by events and movements including a very strange trip to Europe he could have no way made unassisted) and his history of interactions with Dick.

Actually what may have been most significant element in his story is Nagell's verified (via documents) effort to "defect" via the US embassy in Mexico City in 1962 and the very good chance that he was contacted by Harry Hecksher there at that point in time - when Hecksher was operating very much undercover in MC.

Nagell's story has also been muddied by researchers who failed to match some of his remarks and more importantly claims by others to what and where he was at given times - and what he could conceivably have known.  While he was in Miami (provably) and he would have passed on though New Orleans on his way to Texas. But there is literally no way that I could find that he could have known anything about a plot after September - people from Miami in touch with Oswald in New Orleans - possibly, but beyond NO he was out of circulation.

All in all, his story has potential value in exploring Oswald's back story in Japan and in New Orleans, but I'm afraid its been stretched way too far in regard to the attack in Dallas.  Its context for the period and I think possibly for Oswald to some extent, but you have to commit yourself to a major chuck of time to determine what might be significant...been there, done that and went on.

[Jonathan Cohen]

2 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

My concern about Nagell is that by citing Nagell's claims as evidence of the JFKA, the research community can open itself up to charges of biased and sloppy research.

This is an excellent point, and the same point I made in an earlier thread about the ludicrous "Harvey & Lee" theory. It makes the serious research community look foolish to be advocating for a decades-long conspiracy involving doppelgangers and requiring seemingly every piece of evidence to be faked or altered.