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Would a knoll shooter have time to escape?


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I think the short answer is yes. Lets say he fired the head shot then turned to place the rifle in the trunk or under the hood of the vehicle right behind his position. That would take only 5 second if the hood is already popped open. Then he walks at 3.5 mph around the back of the colonnade and east up the Elm annex Rd. After 15 seconds he would be crossing the path between the fence and the pergola. At 25 seconds he would be at the middle of the colonnade. At very close to 45 seconds he has passed the east pergola and would be in the spot where Mr Bothun photographed the "Silhoutte Man".
 We know for a fact that Silhoutte Man exited the plaza unimpeded and disappeared. We can also conclude that walking at an average speed would put the knoll shooter at the same location as Silhouette Man. I'm not saying Silhouette Man was the shooter but he proves it is feasible that a shooter walking from the knoll fence could have disappeared exactly as Silhouette Man did.
 interesting to note that Officer J. Smith would have been passing right by Silhouette Man when the Bothun photo was taken and somewhere along there he encountered the guy who flashed SS ID.
Who would have seen the shooter? first the guy next to Emmet Hudson ran right past the fence and could have seen him or maybe he would be bending down to stash the rifle. Either way he never came forward. Next Dogman and the other 'Runner' next to him would have at least seen the shooter from the back. They never came forward. I guess if I starred into the face of the assassin and could identify them I would stay silent! Next is Mr Hester and he would have got a good look. But since they heard the shots come over their heads from the TSB, a person walking behind the colonnade may not raise suspicion.
  Just to save space I have an unrelated observation. Emmet Hudson is a star witness for the LN'er because he was just feet from the knoll fence and said he clearly heard the shots from the TSB. He said he could hear the shots extra clearly because he and the guy next to him both hit the ground and from down there you could tell where the shots came from. Well FYI, Hudson and the other guy are seen in many images all throughout the shooting sequence and they are standing the whole time! He never drops to the ground unless it is for maybe 5 seconds between shots. The star witness' memory about how he heard the shots could not be more wrong.

knoll egress low.jpg

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Open car trunk-jump in trunk. A confederate drives you away later (or you somehow are able to get out on your own if that is possible- it is in some modern vehicles).

Edited by Vince Palamara
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Well, you said something very important that could very well make this thread irrelevant to some degree. The key thing is the guy flashing SS credentials. If you give the shooter and the spotter both SS credentials then they don't have to escape. They hide the rifle or rifles and just stay in the area and show their fake ID's to whoever they encounter. Genius idea really.

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No, it's very relevant Jamey.

JMO after years of reading.  GK shooter(s), boom boom, guns in trunk.  Never searched.  Blended in with crowd, or, walked quickly to back of TSBD, right to Houston/the parking lot behind the TSBD, north of it, gone.     

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4 hours ago, Jamey Flanagan said:

Well, you said something very important that could very well make this thread irrelevant to some degree. The key thing is the guy flashing SS credentials. If you give the shooter and the spotter both SS credentials then they don't have to escape. They hide the rifle or rifles and just stay in the area and show their fake ID's to whoever they encounter. Genius idea really.

I think they still need to escape as the ID's are fake, imo.

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4 hours ago, Vince Palamara said:

Open car trunk-jump in trunk. A confederate drives you away later (or you somehow are able to get out on your own if that is possible- it is in some modern vehicles).

I have heard that before but I think it would be safer to get out of the area right away. Once you are gone you are gone but as long as you remain there is still a chance of being found, imo.

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4 hours ago, Chris Bristow said:

I have heard that before but I think it would be safer to get out of the area right away. Once you are gone you are gone but as long as you remain there is still a chance of being found, imo.

Fair enough, but it is a definite possibility to consider. For many years, the thought never even entered my mind to check the trunks. Circa 1963 in those pre-Watergate times and so forth (more naive country, less cynical, etc.), would people running behind the fence have even considered that as an option for a gunman to hide/escape?

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10 hours ago, Chris Bristow said:

I think the short answer is yes. Lets say he fired the head shot then turned to place the rifle in the trunk or under the hood of the vehicle right behind his position. That would take only 5 second if the hood is already popped open. Then he walks at 3.5 mph around the back of the colonnade and east up the Elm annex Rd. After 15 seconds he would be crossing the path between the fence and the pergola. At 25 seconds he would be at the middle of the colonnade. At very close to 45 seconds he has passed the east pergola and would be in the spot where Mr Bothun photographed the "Silhoutte Man".
 We know for a fact that Silhoutte Man exited the plaza unimpeded and disappeared. We can also conclude that walking at an average speed would put the knoll shooter at the same location as Silhouette Man. I'm not saying Silhouette Man was the shooter but he proves it is feasible that a shooter walking from the knoll fence could have disappeared exactly as Silhouette Man did.
 interesting to note that Officer J. Smith would have been passing right by Silhouette Man when the Bothun photo was taken and somewhere along there he encountered the guy who flashed SS ID.
Who would have seen the shooter? first the guy next to Emmet Hudson ran right past the fence and could have seen him or maybe he would be bending down to stash the rifle. Either way he never came forward. Next Dogman and the other 'Runner' next to him would have at least seen the shooter from the back. They never came forward. I guess if I starred into the face of the assassin and could identify them I would stay silent! Next is Mr Hester and he would have got a good look. But since they heard the shots come over their heads from the TSB, a person walking behind the colonnade may not raise suspicion.
  Just to save space I have an unrelated observation. Emmet Hudson is a star witness for the LN'er because he was just feet from the knoll fence and said he clearly heard the shots from the TSB. He said he could hear the shots extra clearly because he and the guy next to him both hit the ground and from down there you could tell where the shots came from. Well FYI, Hudson and the other guy are seen in many images all throughout the shooting sequence and they are standing the whole time! He never drops to the ground unless it is for maybe 5 seconds between shots. The star witness' memory about how he heard the shots could not be more wrong.

knoll egress low.jpg

Chris,

This is an interesting idea.  I like it.  I hate to think I am like others dampening your idea.  But, how can you tie anything to Silhouette Man?  He could just be an innocent by stander.  Wasn't there a GI on the knoll.  It might be him.  Or, some other character not necessarily sinister. 

I think you are using this figure to illustrate that a shooter could be on the Knoll and leave without apprehension within a short period of time as you said.  Good idea.    

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15 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

No, it's very relevant Jamey.

JMO after years of reading.  GK shooter(s), boom boom, guns in trunk.  Never searched.  Blended in with crowd, or, walked quickly to back of TSBD, right to Houston/the parking lot behind the TSBD, north of it, gone.     

Or the shooter hiding in the trunk with the weapon, and driven away by his spotter.  Roger Craig reported a DPD officer letting cars out of the parking lot without checking them.

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12 hours ago, Vince Palamara said:

Fair enough, but it is a definite possibility to consider. For many years, the thought never even entered my mind to check the trunks. Circa 1963 in those pre-Watergate times and so forth (more naive country, less cynical, etc.), would people running behind the fence have even considered that as an option for a gunman to hide/escape?

I won't rule out the trunk but have a hard time considering it or any theory that requires a delayed or slow egress. similar to the storm drain theory where the shooter would have to crawl on their hands and knees all the way to the river. If anyone saw and reported the shooter to Heygood there would be 50 cops waiting for them to emerge from the drain at the river. Or Heygood could jump into the drain and shoot them in the ass. I degressed.

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10 hours ago, John Butler said:

Chris,

This is an interesting idea.  I like it.  I hate to think I am like others dampening your idea.  But, how can you tie anything to Silhouette Man?  He could just be an innocent by stander.  Wasn't there a GI on the knoll.  It might be him.  Or, some other character not necessarily sinister. 

I think you are using this figure to illustrate that a shooter could be on the Knoll and leave without apprehension within a short period of time as you said.  Good idea.    

I would consider him a possible knoll suspect but as you said my point is only about using him as a comparison for the timing of the egress.

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CHRIS: Said "similar to the storm drain theory where the shooter would have to crawl on their hands and knees all the way to the river. If anyone saw and reported the shooter to Heygood there would be 50 cops waiting for them to emerge from the drain at the river. Or Heygood could jump into the drain and shoot them in the ass. I degressed".

The storm drain upon the knoll at the underpass junction was an interesting design...it only had a straight round tunnel of 5 or 6 feet then turned left 90 degrees (so no shoot'em in the ass unless you went in and followed) it then ran at a down angle of 45 to 50 degrees for about 60 feet before linking up to larger tunnel system that was about 4 feet high then into the main trinity river tunnel that was stand up straight walking height for almost 800m.  Yes it would have been a difficult escape but for a thinner person not impossible....more importantly who the hell in that parking area was checking down a drain?? No one reported  seeing anyone near there except for our deaf mute friend and his rifle toss malarkey.....And if anyone did get in and looked they would have seen nothing because the drain bent away at right angles.

I believe the storm drain upon the knoll could of been used as an escape route but only if a shooter was firing from behind the picket fence while prone on the ground from a couple of feet away from it.

The only evidence of this is the final head shot shown in the Zapruder film and a Harry Cabluck photograph taken from the press bus that had been doctored in the 60's and my gut....the fact I've been there and sat there a couple of times and watched cars roll down Elm towards the underpass and although I'm only a slightly above average riflemen...i could of made that shot!!!

 

 

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45 minutes ago, Adam Johnson said:

CHRIS: Said "similar to the storm drain theory where the shooter would have to crawl on their hands and knees all the way to the river. If anyone saw and reported the shooter to Heygood there would be 50 cops waiting for them to emerge from the drain at the river. Or Heygood could jump into the drain and shoot them in the ass. I degressed".

The storm drain upon the knoll at the underpass junction was an interesting design...it only had a straight round tunnel of 5 or 6 feet then turned left 90 degrees (so no shoot'em in the ass unless you went in and followed) it then ran at a down angle of 45 to 50 degrees for about 60 feet before linking up to larger tunnel system that was about 4 feet high then into the main trinity river tunnel that was stand up straight walking height for almost 800m.  Yes it would have been a difficult escape but for a thinner person not impossible....more importantly who the hell in that parking area was checking down a drain?? No one reported  seeing anyone near there except for our deaf mute friend and his rifle toss malarkey.....And if anyone did get in and looked they would have seen nothing because the drain bent away at right angles.

I believe the storm drain upon the knoll could of been used as an escape route but only if a shooter was firing from behind the picket fence while prone on the ground from a couple of feet away from it.

The only evidence of this is the final head shot shown in the Zapruder film and a Harry Cabluck photograph taken from the press bus that had been doctored in the 60's and my gut....the fact I've been there and sat there a couple of times and watched cars roll down Elm towards the underpass and although I'm only a slightly above average riflemen...i could of made that shot!!!

 

 

Thanks for the detailed drain layout. It would have been easier than I thought. Maybe Heygood would still have a shot if he trekked down the tube a ways.
 The drain that is part of the this CT is not the drain at the west end of the knoll fence. It is the drain down on north Elm a few feet west of the steps, right next to where Heygood dumped/parked his bike. There is a separate theory about the shooter at the west end of the fence exiting through the drain they were standing in at the mouth of the drain. Where did you find the info on the drain layout?

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