How did Fritz know when Ruby was in position to kill Oswald?

[Jim Hargrove]

2 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

We have a plausible candidate for the young man in question: George Jefferson Applin, Jr.

This is an old debate.  Here’s what I wrote three or four years ago:

There is no evidence that George Applin left the theater through the alley exit, nor is there evidence that he left the theater in time to be the man seen by Bernard Haire.  (He said he left the theater “later” after the police had questioned the customers.)  Nowhere in his affidavit or 1964 testimony does he say when he first saw Main Floor Oswald in the theater. 

Since the list of theater patrons vanished, we only have two eyewitnesses on the record as to when Main Floor Oswald arrived at the theater, Butch Burroughs and Jack Davis. Both witnesses say he was there before 1:15 pm, the time the WC wanted us to believe Tippit was murdered.  And Davis’s description of events suggests Main Floor Oswald may have created a scene because moved about in the theater, sitting right next to several different customers, which may be one of the reasons the customer list had to disappear.

By his own account, Applin was on the main floor, not the balcony, and so he had nothing to do with the Balcony Oswald.  According to the WC, citing the Postal/Brewer saga, Balcony Oswald entered the theater shortly after 1:30 pm, at least 20 minutes after Burroughs and Davis saw Main Floor Oswald inside the theater.  

At 1:45 pm, Postal called the police and said the suspicious man who ducked into the theater was hiding in the balcony.  At 1:46 pm, the Dallas Police dispatcher broadcast this message: “Have information a suspect just went in the Texas Theater on West Jefferson ... supposed to be hiding in balcony.  

Two DPD reports say “Oswald” was arrested in the balcony.  For decades now, Burroughs has said he saw a man who looked like Classic Oswald® arrested in the balcony soon after Main Floor Oswald was captured.  That man was not George Applin.

[Jim Hargrove]

[Jim Hargrove]

From his book JFK and the Unspeakable:

Butch Burroughs, who witnessed Oswald’s arrest, startled me in his interview by saying he saw a second arrest occur in the Texas Theater only “three or four minutes later.”[444] He said the Dallas Police then arrested “an Oswald lookalike.” Burroughs said the second man “looked almost like Oswald, like he was his brother or something.”[445] When I questioned the comparison by asking, “Could you see the second man as well as you could see Oswald?” he said, “Yes, I could see both of them. They looked alike.”[446] After the officers half-carried and half-dragged Oswald to the police car in front of the theater, within a space of three or four minutes, Burroughs saw the second Oswald placed under arrest and handcuffed. The Oswald look-alike, however, was taken by police not out the front but out the back of the theater.[447]

What happened next we can learn from another neglected witness, Bernard Haire.[448]

Bernard J. Haire was the owner of Bernie’s Hobby House, just two doors east of the Texas Theater. Haire went outside his store when he saw police cars congregating in front of the theater.[449] When he couldn’t see what was happening because of the crowd, he went back through his store into the alley out back. It, too, was full of police cars, but there were fewer spectators. Haire walked up the alley. When he stopped opposite the rear door of the theater, he witnessed what he would think for decades was the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald.

“Police brought a young white man out,” Haire told an interviewer. “The man was dressed in a pullover shirt and slacks. He seemed to be flushed, as if he’d been in a struggle. Police put the man in a police car and drove off.”[450]

When Haire was told in 1987 that Lee Harvey Oswald had been brought out the front of the theater by police, he was shocked.

“I don’t know who I saw arrested,” he said in bewilderment.[451]

Butch Burroughs and Bernard Haire are complementary witnesses. From their perspectives both inside and outside the Texas Theater, they saw an Oswald double arrested and taken to a police car in the back alley only minutes after the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald. Burroughs’s and Haire’s independent, converging testimonies provide critical insight into the mechanics of the plot. In a comprehensive intelligence scenario for Kennedy’s and Tippit’s murders, the plan culminated in Oswald’s Friday arrest and Sunday murder (probably a fallback from his being set up to be killed in the Texas Theater by the police).

There is a hint of the second Oswald’s arrest in the Dallas police records. According to the Dallas Police Department’s official Homicide Report on J. D. Tippit, “Suspect was later arrested in the balcony of the Texas theatre at 231 W. Jefferson.”[452]

Dallas Police detective L. D. Stringfellow also reported to Captain W. P. Gannaway, “Lee Harvey Oswald was arrested in the balcony of the Texas Theater.”[453]

NOTES:

444. Author’s interview of Burroughs, July 16, 2007. Butch Burroughs is a man of few words. When asked a question, he answers exactly what he is asked. Burroughs told me no one had ever asked him before about a second arrest in the Texas Theater. In response to my question, “Now you didn’t see anybody else [besides Oswald] get arrested that day, did you?” he answered, “Yes, there was a lookalike—an Oswald lookalike.” In response to further questions, he described the second arrest, that of the “Oswald lookalike.” Ibid. Because Butch Burroughs saw neither Oswald nor his lookalike enter the Texas Theater, each must have gone directly up the balcony stairs on entering. Oswald crossed the balcony and came down the stairs on the far side of the lobby. There he entered the orchestra seats and began his seat-hopping, in apparent search of a contact. His lookalike sneaked into the theater at 1:45 P.M. and, like Oswald, went immediately up the balcony stairs. By the time Burroughs witnessed the Oswald double’s arrest, he had also come down the balcony stairs on the far side of the lobby, either on his own or already accompanied by police who had been checking the balcony. 

445. §
Ibid. 

446. §
Ibid. 

447. §
Ibid. 

448. §
In the data base of the JFK Records Act at the National Archives, there is no record of Bernard Haire. Archivist Martin F. McGann to James Douglass, July 20, 2007. 

449. §
In a photo taken about 1:50 P.M., November 22, 1963, that shows people gathering around the police cars in front of the Texas Theater, Bernard Haire can be seen at the edge of the crowd, leaning on a parking meter and trying to see. Photo by Stuart L. Reed; on p. 68, Myers, With Malice. 

450. §
Bernard J. Haire interview by Jim Marrs, summer 1987. Crossfire, p. 354. 

451. §
Ibid. 

452. §
Dallas Police Department Homicide Report on J. D. Tippit, November 22, 1963. Reproduced in With Malice, p. 447 (emphasis added). 

453. §
Letter from Detective L. D. Stringfellow to Captain W. P. Gannaway, November 23, 1963, Dallas City Archives. Cited in Harvey & Lee, p. 871 (emphasis added). 

 

[Richard Price]

21 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

“Police brought a young white man out,” Haire told an interviewer. “The man was dressed in a pullover shirt and slacks. He seemed to be flushed, as if he’d been in a struggle. Police put the man in a police car and drove off.”[450]

I have seen the info posted above before.  I just noticed the detail above when reading it this morning.  "The man was dressed in a PULLOVER SHIRT...  To me, this means a sports shirt that does not button all the way down, but only to the mid chest area and usually not worn over an undershirt.  I and my friends wore those types of shirts for most the '60's.  It definitely shows that it was a different man even without any other corroboration.  It also brings to mind other testimony of "Oswald" or other person's being described as wearing "sports shirts".  I've really got to focus on the exact language being used and it's connotation.  Too easy to miss things in plain sight.

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

Jim Hargrove writes:

Quote

This is an old debate.  Here’s what I wrote three or four years ago

It is indeed an old debate. All the points Jim raises were dealt with in August 2019 on the threads I linked to in my previous post. Let's go through them again, shall we?

Quote

There is no evidence that George Applin left the theater through the alley exit, nor is there evidence that he left the theater in time to be the man seen by Bernard Haire.  (He said he left the theater “later” after the police had questioned the customers.) 

There may be no direct evidence (e.g. photos or witness statements), but there is every reason to suppose that Applin did indeed leave by the rear doors:

1. Applin was spoken to by police officers in the auditorium, which was located at the end of the Texas Theater furthest away from the main entrance, and adjacent to the alley.
2. At least one of the police officers who spoke to Applin had entered the auditorium via one of the doors which linked the rear of the building to the alley.
3. The alley contained several police cars. Those cars were surely the ones which had conveyed to the Texas Theater the police officers who spoke to Applin in the auditorium at the rear of the building.
4. Applin left the Texas Theater in the company of those police officers.
5. Applin was driven away from the Texas Theater in a police car.
6. The police officers who escorted Applin from the Texas Theater and drove him away are very likely to have used the same cars in which they arrived.
7. Applin was a 21-year-old white man.
8. Bernard Haire saw one, and only one, young white man being escorted from the rear of the Texas Theater by the police and driven away in a police car that had been parked in the alley.
9. There is no evidence that more than one person was escorted by police officers out of the Texas Theater via one of the doors leading to the alley, and then driven away in a police car. No witnesses mentioned such an occurrence. There are no known photographs or home movies or news films of such an occurrence.
10. If, as the evidence overwhelmingly suggests, only one person was escorted by police officers from the rear of the Texas Theater and driven away in a police car, the sole candidate is George Jefferson Applin, Jr.
11. Applin was (and, for all I know, still is) a real-life human being, as opposed to Jim's candidate, who is a made-up character in a work of fiction.

https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/25901-two-oswalds-in-the-texas-theater/?do=findComment&comment=405837

As for Jim's claim that Applin "said he left the theater 'later'", here is what Jim's friend Greg Parker wrote the last time Jim made that claim:

Quote

Jim, you are [redacted] through your teeth when you say that Applin testified that he went down to City Hall "later". It was Ball who asked "Later did you go down to the police station and make a statement?" Applin replied it was after he gave his contact details.  We know it was straight away because they tried to get him back to theatre in time to catch the end of the show but missed it. If if it was way later of course, there would be no point in rushing him back.

(https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t2051-time-to-kill-another-myth-there-was-no-second-oswald-arrested-at-the-theater#30235)

Jim continues:

Quote

By his own account, Applin was on the main floor, not the balcony, and so he had nothing to do with the Balcony Oswald.

There was no 'Balcony Oswald'. I dealt with the balcony question in this comment:

https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/25901-two-oswalds-in-the-texas-theater/?do=findComment&comment=407170

Briefly, the evidence comprises:

• Two police reports of Oswald's arrest, both of them by officers who probably weren't present at the arrest. Because the precise location of Oswald's arrest was of no consequence, the reports most likely were repeating a mistaken detail from the pre-arrest alert that the suspect was "supposed to be hiding in balcony".
• An account first made by Butch Burroughs in 1993, a mere thirty years after the event. Burroughs had already spoken to the Warren Commission in 1964 and to Jim Marrs in 1987, but failed to mention any arrest in the balcony. Burroughs did not go up to the balcony during the incident, and from his position at the back of the auditorium he could not have seen into the balcony. He obviously saw Applin being escorted out by the police, and inadvertently added details three decades later when speaking to James Douglass, who repeated the padded-out version in JFK and the Unspeakable.

[Jim Hargrove]

43 minutes ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

It is indeed an old debate. All the points Jim raises were dealt with in August 2019 on the threads I linked to in my previous post. Let's go through them again, shall we?

Or we can just summarize Mr. B's complaints quite briefly:

Burroughs was wrong, Haire was wrong, Applin was wrong, Douglass was wrong, Stringfellow was wrong, the Tippit Homicide Report was wrong, and I’m wrong.  Only Mr. B. and G. Parker are right!

Case closed, eh?

[John Butler]

5 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

We have a plausible candidate for the young man in question: George Jefferson Applin, Jr.

• He left the rear of the building accompanied by police officers in order to give a signed statement, hence the mistaken impression that he was being arrested.
• He was a white man in his early twenties, as was Oswald, hence the mistaken impression that he was a look-alike.

Applin had no known connection to either Westbrook or the assassination. He appears to have been just an ordinary member of the public who had been watching a film.

Jim,

Jeremy makes these bold claims with little evidence, or none to back them up.  At best, he will refer you to some other site that supposedly upholds his claim.  He will ignore or deny anything you present to the contrary.  Even if other researchers support your conclusions with more evidence, it does not matter. 

You have presented solid evidence for the things you are saying.  He has a referral to elsewhere as refutation.   Compare his reply to Steve Thomas' reply and you will understand what I am saying.

[John Butler]

On 4/18/2022 at 11:49 AM, John Butler said:

Jack Tatum saw the man who shot Tippit begin to leave and then quickly return to the body and shoot Tippit in the head.  More after my consultation with the Easter Bunny, who I predict can come closer to solving this case than the WC did.

Jim,

That can be said for just about everything in Dealey Plaza and out on Patten and the Texas Theatre.  Really the best propaganda experts from government agencies have stirred the evidence in this case to the point one can argue against anything one points out.  And, that is the job of those folks who don't want to be called LNers.  Perhaps we could call them assassination or conspiracy deniers instead.

Jackie Kennedy said President Kennedy was shot in the head just as she saw a blue grey building up ahead.  There is no blue grey building on Elm or Houston.  Everyone I know denies or ignores that statement.  To many pick and choose evidence to support their conclusions.

     

Edited April 19, 2022 by John Butler

[Ron Bulman]

On 3/30/2022 at 8:40 AM, Jim Hargrove said:

A new article, co-authored by John Armstrong and David Josephs, discusses this and other aspects of….

The Pre-Arranged Murder of Oswald

Jim, I imagine you and John have considered this but it doesn't have to be Westbrook at the window for the scenario to still be the most likely thing that happened.  I fully agree Westbrook was involved.  He had a busy day on Friday.

But a trusted subordinate could have stood at the window observing Ruby arriving at the All Right parking garage, going to Western Union, exiting it or entering the City Hall annex.  Heck it could have been Croy.  But other officers would have followed orders, and stayed silent afterwards.  Whether they knew their purpose in advance or not.

At a pre determined point, exiting Western Union, entering the annex, they left for the Homicide offices to nod, wink or whisper "he's here".  Someone else, higher up does the same to Fritz.  It works either way better than Ruby accidentally strolling down the ramp with Jackie and the kids on his mind and his pistol in his pocket. 

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

Jim Hargrove writes:

Quote

Burroughs was wrong, Haire was wrong, Applin was wrong, Douglass was wrong, Stringfellow was wrong, the Tippit Homicide Report was wrong, and I’m wrong.

It's interesting that Jim doesn't actually argue against the points I made.

I explained why Burroughs and Haire were mistaken. Burroughs could not have seen what he claimed, 30 years later, to have seen. Haire saw one young white man being escorted to a police car, and jumped to the conclusion that the young white man he saw for a few seconds was the same young white man he read about in the newspapers. Their mistakes are understandable and perfectly credible.

I also explained why the police reports could easily be mistaken in reporting a trivial detail that the two authors probably couldn't have seen for themselves. Again, the mistakes are understandable and perfectly credible.

James Douglass presumably reported exactly what he was told by Burroughs. If he made a mistake, it was the same one Jim made. He failed to apply a bit of critical thinking to Burroughs' story.

Jim was indeed wrong to claim that George Applin "said he left the theater 'later'." It wasn't Applin who said this, but Joseph Ball, when questioning Applin on behalf of the Warren Commission, as Greg Parker pointed out to Jim three years ago. Applin did not, as Jim implies, say that he left the Texas Theater too late to have been seen by Bernard Haire. Is this what Jim is getting at when he wrote "Applin was wrong"? If so, it's Jim who is wrong, not Applin.

As I explained, the evidence shows that only one young white man was escorted by the police into the alley and driven away in a police car. We know of only one young white man who was escorted by the police into the alley and driven away in a police car: George Jefferson Applin, Jr.

[David Josephs]

8 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

Jim, I imagine you and John have considered this but it doesn't have to be Westbrook at the window for the scenario to still be the most likely thing that happened.  I fully agree Westbrook was involved.  He had a busy day on Friday.

But a trusted subordinate could have stood at the window observing Ruby arriving at the All Right parking garage, going to Western Union, exiting it or entering the City Hall annex.  Heck it could have been Croy.  But other officers would have followed orders, and stayed silent afterwards.  Whether they knew their purpose in advance or not.

At a pre determined point, exiting Western Union, entering the annex, they left for the Homicide offices to nod, wink or whisper "he's here".  Someone else, higher up does the same to Fritz.  It works either way better than Ruby accidentally strolling down the ramp with Jackie and the kids on his mind and his pistol in his pocket. 

Hey there Ron,

The passage we believe was used is on the 3rd floor from the City Hall DPD building to the Courts building wand is at the end of the south east wing of the 3rd floor.  This area was senior DPD staff only with Curry at the west end and all the Deputy Chiefs.  The first office as you go down the hall to the "meat and potatoes" staff is Westbrook's.

The other pass-through between the buildings we show, was at the main stair landings.
While someone other than Westbrook is very possible, adding yet another man to the "in the know" list of players may not have been in his best interest.  Besides... has anyone ever found what and where WESTBROOK went and did after the Friday of Oswald's arrest?  

The toughest question for us was how the timing of bringing Oswald down 1 minute after the Pierce/Putnam/Massey car passes in front of the cameras coincides with when Ruby walked up.  A video on the subject found on Youtube suggested that those windows were to the room Oswald was being interrogated within...  that was not the case but it did lead us to those windows being the most logical spot for a spotter to be.... given they knew Ruby would enter via the parking lot (which the WCR called an "alley").  

Side note:  describing it as an "alley" does suggest that Ruby may have walked around the building or hugged the building thru the parking lot until reaching what appears to be an alley leading directly to that door:

Remember, Brock and Worley were the only two officers between the stairs and the ramp and they were removed by 11am.  Removed by a combination of Pierce, Putnam & Dean responding to orders which are hard to pin down.

In the few minutes before the shooting we have a stationary middle camera filming as people come and go.  This is the camera that shows the Pierce car moving thru and up the Main ramp about 1 minute before the shooting yet it had been running for quite some time.  Studying the film we do not see Ruby pass in front of this camera to arrive at his position.  As we wrote, the railing was an easy pass through and nicely hidden from sight.  Ruby then just appears next to Croy after the Pierce car passes (which is how I believe Ruby is able to describe the car and passengers in his made-up trip down Main and then down the ramp.

I believe we alluded tot he HSCA having not only found this entrance but concludes it the most likely way Ruby gets into the basement...  Add the removal of officers and the exact timing of Oswald's arrival and I believe we are very close to the truth.

Then there are these passages from that section:

HSCA Vol 9 5A
(586) Edward E . Pierce, also a building maintenance employee, stated that the door leading from the alley into the first floor was constructed in such a manner that it had to be locked from the outside every time an individual left the building in this fashion.  Otherwise it would remain open. Pierce said that on Sunday morning the door was probably opened and closed several times prior to the shooting because the porters were working and needed to get into the alley.  (286) Capt. William Westbrook, a member of the DPD special investigative unit, indicated in 1978 that the alley door was not checked that morning (287) (although his basis for this statement was not clear). (587) Servance reiterated the mechanics of the alley door to the Warren Commission and added that the third door at issue-the one leading from the first-floor corridor to the fire escape stairwell-was also unlocked all the time. (288)
(598) The alley route was the most likely alternative because of the factors of time and distance, the lack of security in the garage area and along the entire route, and the testimony concerning the security at the doors along the route. This possibility was not considered or investigated by the FBI or the Dallas Police Department and was virtually ignored by the Warren Commission.
 

[Jim Hargrove]

11 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

As I explained, the evidence shows that only one young white man was escorted by the police into the alley and driven away in a police car. We know of only one young white man who was escorted by the police into the alley and driven away in a police car: George Jefferson Applin, Jr.

And did George Applin look anything like LHO?  Did he have red hair?  Was he balding?  Did he weigh 300 pounds?  Did he have a beard?  You don’t have the slightest idea, but you’re absolutely certain he was the guy who two different witness thought looked a lot like Oswald.  Case closed!
 

[Jim Hargrove]

16 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

Jim, I imagine you and John have considered this but it doesn't have to be Westbrook at the window for the scenario to still be the most likely thing that happened.  I fully agree Westbrook was involved.  He had a busy day on Friday.

But a trusted subordinate could have stood at the window observing Ruby arriving at the All Right parking garage, going to Western Union, exiting it or entering the City Hall annex.  Heck it could have been Croy.  But other officers would have followed orders, and stayed silent afterwards.  Whether they knew their purpose in advance or not.

At a pre determined point, exiting Western Union, entering the annex, they left for the Homicide offices to nod, wink or whisper "he's here".  Someone else, higher up does the same to Fritz.  It works either way better than Ruby accidentally strolling down the ramp with Jackie and the kids on his mind and his pistol in his pocket. 

Ron,

In addition to what David said, I’d add that the coauthors’ opinions that Westbrook signaled Fritz when Ruby was in place is clearly a theory, but it makes perfect sense.

First, it is odd that Westbrook wasn’t in Fritz’s office before the transfer of Oswald began.  After all, Westbrook was utterly instrumental in handling the so-called “evidence.” He showed around, even to TV cameras, the 10th and Patton “Oswald/Hidell” wallet, the jacket, and he even had the .38 caliber revolver, which Officer Hill (who worked directly for Westbrook) inexplicably brought to Westbrook’s office instead of Capt. Fritz’s Homicide and Robbery office, where it surely belonged.

My opinion is that Westbrook was part of the conspiracy, at least the conspiracy to frame Oswald. And Fritz needed someone he could trust, which would include Westbrook, to indicate when to start moving Oswald.  I don’t think it was Croy, because he most likely needed to stay in the basement to be sure Ruby got to Oswald at just the right time.  (Had Ruby stood for several minutes waiting for Oswald, a cop might have spotted him and ordered him away.)

[Paul Brancato]

16 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Ron,

In addition to what David said, I’d add that the coauthors’ opinions that Westbrook signaled Fritz when Ruby was in place is clearly a theory, but it makes perfect sense.

First, it is odd that Westbrook wasn’t in Fritz’s office before the transfer of Oswald began.  After all, Westbrook was utterly instrumental in handling the so-called “evidence.” He showed around, even to TV cameras, the 10th and Patton “Oswald/Hidell” wallet, the jacket, and he even had the .38 caliber revolver, which Officer Hill (who worked directly for Westbrook) inexplicably brought to Westbrook’s office instead of Capt. Fritz’s Homicide and Robbery office, where it surely belonged.

My opinion is that Westbrook was part of the conspiracy, at least the conspiracy to frame Oswald. And Fritz needed someone he could trust, which would include Westbrook, to indicate when to start moving Oswald.  I don’t think it was Croy, because he most likely needed to stay in the basement to be sure Ruby got to Oswald at just the right time.  (Had Ruby stood for several minutes waiting for Oswald, a cop might have spotted him and ordered him away.)

There is a picture from 1967 or so of Westbrook in Vietnam, in the company of none other than David Morales. 

[Ron Bulman]

5 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

There is a picture from 1967 or so of Westbrook in Vietnam, in the company of none other than David Morales. 

Thats interesting.  I've read before about Westbrook going to Vietnam working for I think AID training South Vietnam police.  I 've also read of Morales in Vietnam with the CIA.  But I never heard about the two together there.  Given Morales statement about "We got that sob" might there be more there than just the CIA to the "we"?  Might they have worked together in some capacity in the fall of 1963?

Any idea where we might find the picture Paul?