Ruth Paine on "The Assassination & Mrs. Paine" film: "Well done, but powerfully awful"

[Guest]

I understand a bunch of items on Ruth are open for discussion (like on a forum or so 😄 ).  And I finally got Jim's book (latest edition, the works, yep ! ).   One of the most intriguing items (IMO) is the Mexico letter, Ruth's handwritten copy, Lee's draft, and the copies the rest of the world received at some point (incl.Russia).  In the next weeks I will be collecting all I can get on that.  I'm done with GdM's/Maydell's background anyway.  The letter seems a nice project.    It caused a lot of things to happen, even furniture was being moved. And I would like to find out who got a copy and at what time did they get it. All of this just a couple of weeks before JFKA (well... it didn't prevent it...). 

Edited October 16, 2022 by Jean Paul Ceulemans

[James DiEugenio]

Jean Paul:

The Mexico letter is utterly fascinating.

Why?

Because the weight of the evidence today says Oswald was not there.  David Josephs has been stellar on this, and he has also proved how the Secretary of Interior covered up for a desperate CIA to place him there.

If this is accurate, then what does that say about the letter?   I am so glad you brought up the furniture moving.  Chris Newton wrote some really incisive stuff about that whole issue.  Its very interesting since it happened BEFORE the assassination.  For months, years, I have been trying to get Chris to expand that into essay form. Because I think its of potentially primal importance.  Not just to the Paines, but the entire case.

Edited October 16, 2022 by James DiEugenio

[Jonathan Cohen]

55 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

Jean Paul:

The Mexico letter is utterly fascinating.

Why?

Because the weight of the evidence today says Oswald was not there.

This is an inaccurate statement, Jim. There is ample evidence that the one and only historical Lee Oswald was physically in Mexico City. That also does not preclude him being impersonated there before, during or after.

[James DiEugenio]

Jonathan:

If there is one thing besides JFK's foreign policy that I have studied at length and depth, it is Oswald, the CIA and Mexico City.

I will match wits on this with anyone.

I stand by my statement.  Because the only way you can put him in Mexico City at that time is with quite dubious evidence.  That is how desperate the CIA was to place him there.

And we will have another upcoming article on this coming up at K and K soon.

[Jonathan Cohen]

37 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

Jonathan:

If there is one thing besides JFK's foreign policy that I have studied at length and depth, it is Oswald, the CIA and Mexico City.

I will match wits on this with anyone.

I stand by my statement.  Because the only way you can put him in Mexico City at that time is with quite dubious evidence.  That is how desperate the CIA was to place him there.

Sooo… every witness who saw and encountered him there, including employees of two embassies, is lying or wrong? The hotel registry is faked? The passport photo he took there is faked? The multiple people who saw and conversed with him on the bus are lying or wrong?

[James DiEugenio]

The two CIA plants in the Cuban embassy both said he was never there.

Duran said, before the HSCA, the guy she saw was 5 foot five.

Four of the five other diplomats said it was not him, as did the student organizer.

The tape is not his voice, and no picture from either embassy reveals he was there.

Now, if you want to rely on the KGB/Russian guys who, oh so melodramatically, portray a neurotic Oswald with a gun who is on the verge of murder or suicide--playing right into the WC hands--then go ahead. I have a real problem with any book like that written at that time, for very good reasons.

Funny thing about them though, the day after the assassination, they never brought this up at all.

Please Jonathan, I do not believe you do not know this stuff.  You do.  And you want to argue this over Ruth Paine?

BTW, Greg Parker will be coming out with more on this issue later.

Edited October 17, 2022 by James DiEugenio

[Allen Lowe]

On 10/9/2022 at 12:45 PM, Greg Doudna said:

I have spoken with Joe Alesi two times. Strikes me as a decent, quiet, soft-spoken guy, who lives in the area where Ruth Paine lives in California and came into contact with Michael and then her by accident through his collecting activities (a contact with Michael who was then in California but not at that time living in the same assisted living place where Ruth Paine is, over a collector's item as I recall is how it started for Joe). As I understand it he became a friend and confidante to Ruth (who I understand has had some dark moments of private grief over how she is portrayed, behind her strength in public, and can use Joe's shoulder, so to speak). The "handler" suggestion is unwarranted and baseless from anything I can see. I see no sign that anybody is handling Ruth Paine other than herself. If there is a handler in that relationship, it is Ruth handling Joe in the sense of Joe being willing to do favors for Ruth, but mostly a listening ear. Joe told me that as he came to know Ruth personally he came to totally believe in her innocence. I can relate to that.

In addition to working as an investigator for Defense Investigative Service, at an earlier stage he told me he worked for the IRS. Since Ruth has some history as a war tax protester (wilful violation of federal law with respect to income taxes, to make a political statement against how the money is used), Joe told me of that as irony since he was on the other side working for IRS (as an auditor I think). 

Joe told me many interesting stories of some of his collecting history, of encounters with famous people, both involved with the JFK assassination and apart from the JFK assassination. I have no experience in the world of collecting myself so for me this was an insight into that world and fascinating.

One item in particular of possible interest is Joe told me he has some original notes of Jack Ruby handwritten when Ruby was in prison, apparently not previously known. A letterhead authenticates them purportedly signed by Earl Ruby, Jack Ruby's brother in Chicago, deceased. I was intrigued and have seen and read them, several dozen pages of handwriting. Nothing in content that bears on Oswald or the assassination. Mostly it is stories of fights or altercations Ruby was in, names and details, with Ruby's side of those altercations explained. However, and I expressed this to Joe, certain things cause me to suspect a question of authenticity with these, i.e. possible forgery, in terms of content, late apparent emergence to knowledge of these notes, and chain of custody. However, the handwriting is extensive and since authentic Jack Ruby handwriting also exists in extensive quantity, expert comparison could be done and presumably establish up or down whether that is really Jack Ruby's handwriting (which is over my head in terms of expertise). 

But never mind that, back to Alesi. I looked up Defense Investigative Service, the former name for what is now called Defense Criminal Investigative Service (the name change occurred 1999). Wikipedia says this under its article by its current name:

The Defense Criminal Investigative Service is the criminal investigative arm of the Office of Inspector General, U.S. Department of Defense. DCIS protects military personnel by investigating cases of fraud, bribery, and corruption; preventing the illegal transfer of sensitive defense technologies to proscribed nations and criminal elements; investigating companies that use defective, substandard, or counterfeit parts in weapon systems and equipment utilized by the military; and stopping cyber crimes and computer intrusions. (. . .) To be considered for a DCIS special agent position, an individual must: Be a U.S. citizen, age between 21 and 37 years, pass screening, background investigation and have exceptional communication skills. DCIS special agent candidates initially receive training at the U.S. Department of Homeland Security’s Federal Law Enforcement Training Center (FLETC) located in Glynco, Georgia. They attend FLETC's basic training course for special agents, the Criminal Investigator Training Program, which lasts about 12 weeks and represents the beginning of basic training received by DCIS special agents. Later, agents may return to FLETC to attend specialized training in contractor fraud, money laundering, computer crimes, advanced interview techniques, etc. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_Criminal_Investigative_Service)

 I am glad Ruth Paine has someone supportive nearby like Alesi.

“preventing-the illegal transfer of sensitive defensetechnologies to proscribed nations and criminal elements”

sure sounds like intelligence work to me.

[Kirk Gallaway]

19 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Matt, I refer you to page 172 of JFK and the Unspeakable.

As Jim summarizes, Ruth first denied she knew anything about the Air line job, then she recalled it vaguely, and finally said she knew about it from Lee.

Jim then quotes the WC transcript to back this up.

 

The only reason this " Ruth forced Lee into a lower paying job to put him in the TSBD?" hypothesis even gets out the starting gate is Ruth's supposed choice made for a lower paying job for Lee. But there's no evidence that any wage was disclosed or why it would be! Also the job search was over!

 

It seems to me, what is  at best a 20% probability hypothesis is passed off as an almost certainty.Once something is pushed as a certainty here, its hard to dislodge it. ( like Ruth actually being the source of the lead?) And to extend on that, Jim, we're to share your belief that obviously  Ruth was being coached.

 

 And of course, extending on that, when Oswald is accused of killing the president. Wouldn't a light bulb go off in Ruth's head that she's been coached  to keep Lee in the TSBD? and why?

At that point, she has to divulge who her handlers are, or she could be seen as an accessory to the killing of a President. And you're asserting she made a conscious choice to side with her handlers.

 

I would assert according to your theory, not only is Ruth in way over her head, but you're in way over your head having adopted this theory.

[James DiEugenio]

3 hours ago, Allen Lowe said:

“preventing-the illegal transfer of sensitive defensetechnologies to proscribed nations and criminal elements”

sure sounds like intelligence work to me.

LOL 😗

I would have to agree.

[Ron Bulman]

 

[James DiEugenio]

Yes, this is what I have been trying to get Chris to write about in essay format for months and months on end.

Chris moved from Florida to California a while back and he had some unfortunate circumstances in the transfer.

But, to me, this is of the utmost importance.

 

Edited October 17, 2022 by James DiEugenio

[Sandy Larsen]

20 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

If this is accurate, then what does that say about the [Kostin/Kostikov] letter?   I am so glad you brought up the furniture moving.  Chris Newton wrote some really incisive stuff about that whole issue.

 

I agree. Anybody interested in the Mexico City incident or the Kostin/Kostikov letter should read these Chris Newton threads:

First, here's a handy timeline of the letter, summarized by Chris:

 

 

Then read May/June 2017 of this thread:

 

 

And then read August 2017 and beyond of this thread:

 

 

[Jonathan Cohen]

17 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

The two CIA plants in the Cuban embassy both said he was never there.

John Newman says Oswald was in Mexico City in this extensive presentation. Has he completely changed his tune since then to align with your way of thinking?

[James DiEugenio]

From what I can see, that talk is from 2003.

That means its almost 20 years ago.

Are you saying nothing has happened in the interval?

[Jonathan Cohen]

15 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

From what I can see, that talk is from 2003.

That means its almost 20 years ago.

Are you saying nothing has happened in the interval?

No... I'm asking if you personally are aware of Dr. Newman changing his mind about Oswald physically being in Mexico City since he gave this presentation.