Ruth Paine on "The Assassination & Mrs. Paine" film: "Well done, but powerfully awful"

[Pat Speer]

I would like to congratulate Max for making an interesting film. While his own suspicions of Ruth come through in the end, he allowed Ruth plenty of screen time. This allowed her to project herself as a person and not just the boogey-woman some would like her to be. In the end, she wins, IMO. 

I recently watched Grey Gardens, an award winning film from the 70's about some of Jackie Kennedy's relatives. Edie lives in a rotting mansion, and delights in dancing and flirting with the film-makers. While she comes across as a bit of a fruit-loop, the strength of her character comes across, and the film helped her gain the attention she'd always craved. I feel that  your film does the same for Ruth Paine. She gets to tell her story, and a lot of those watching will believe her. 

 

Edited October 12, 2022 by Pat Speer

[Matt Allison]

I'm a little in the dark about what exactly people seem to suspect Ruth Paine of; she wasn't a planner of the assassination, so I certainly hope that's not somehow being implied.

[David Von Pein]

58 minutes ago, Matt Allison said:

I'm a little in the dark about what exactly people seem to suspect Ruth Paine of...

I've been wondering about that very thing for years now....

"Once we remove the notion that ANYONE planted Lee Oswald in the TSBD [Click], then where do you go with any type of "handler" theory? What did Ruth DO to advance the plot forward in the weeks prior to November 22nd? Was letting him stay at her house a few nights in October and November supposedly furthering the plot along? Teaching him to drive? Was that what Ruth's CIA bosses used her for? Fixing Lee potatoes and corn muffins on weekends? Was that her purpose? Just WHAT supposedly was Ruth's role?" -- DVP; September 2, 2014

 

Edited October 12, 2022 by David Von Pein

[Kirk Gallaway]

Max: Ruth mentioned that her son had power of attorney for Michael 

 

Just as I surmised. That's why they're "under the same roof". These last 2 pages have been another wild goose chase. Just like assuming an employment counselor is going to reveal details , such as the wage at the  airport job to a stranger over the phone? Probably not likely.

 

People are entitled to have their own charges  about Ruth Paine, whether they could hold up in a court of law or not, which they clearly can't. But that doesn't matter. I believe there are people who are guilty, though my case might never hold up in court.

 

Half of this I already posted, with no real response to any of the questions I asked. I don't need a regurgitation of every suspicious thing the Ruth Paine has done for the umpteenth time. Please answer the questions that are designated with a question mark.?

 

I only use Jim Di because most of the details from Carol Hewitt  I learned from him. But what Di Eugenio has at least alleged, is that  Ruth Paine found herself in an unwitting plot to assassinate the President and then chose to plant evidence for the plotters. If a person when confronted with that dilemma, was given the choice, then chose to go and aid the conspirators, they would then become an accessory after the fact to the killing of a U.S President. That's not an unwitting accomplice. That's a very conscious choice, and a very serious allegation. These elements of the research community seem to have settled in a safe perch where they can take pot shots without  substantiating their theories and it's implications at all, and that allows it to be  greatly ambiguous. There's a lot of ground between someone under some pressure and maybe not telling everything they know and consciously aiding the plotters. You better be sure you know what you're talking about.

 

 

Here I'll just take this "unwitting accomplice" narrative and merge it with the story RP's alleged spy work in Nicaragua which is a story that has been recycled for the maybe hundreds of times here in the past. 

 

To believe this story, you're supposing that Ruth retains her position as a CIA asset, even after you allege her being   an unwitting asset in what many believe here is the greatest coup ever engineered in the history of the U.S. If you really think RP was a spy. Do you have any idea what being that entails? It's actually a clandestine life style. Are you familiar with the term, "spycraft"?" Is the CIA wise to use such an asset with such a blown cover in their escapades to forward the Contra War in Nicaragua? If RP was somehow exposed in that role, as an asset of U.S. Intelligence, wouldn't it just a beeline to her involvement in the JFKA case, and open up that whole mess?

 

A mess that people, including Di Eugenio here are claiming the CIA brought down a U.S. President  over? Causing the first President in the history to resign because of his alleged knowledge of the JFKA? Why in the world would they take  a chance of letting Ruth Paine run amuck in Nicaragua? Would such an agent really be out in the open writing copious notes, particularly with her previous exposure? Or would she probably do so in her own private moments before she went to bed for example. What kind of spy does that? Doesn't that strike you as a little phony? So you think they were smart enough to a engineer coup to kill the POTUS? and stupid enough to let this accessory to the fact do this?

 

Jean Paul:I don’t even think I understand why she did it this time ?  

Are we supposed to see this as a challenge, from a 90 y.o. person ?  Really ?

Is this like "Oops, she did it again" .... ?   What's happening ?

 

 

Let's look at her profile over the last 50+ years. She's 90 and she's actually going to go to Dallas for the 60th anniversary!  What intelligence asset would do that?  How foolish would she even be to go participate in the televised mock trial only to have people here chime in and castigate RP for "not liking LHO" (as if that means anything!. Is this a professional relationship, or a personal vendetta?) No matter what you think of RP, whether it''s a traitor, a spy, an asset, or a woman taking on a room mate. Who in the CIA or "Deep state" would advise her to do that?

 

But in order to make this story plausible, they have to portray RP as some wacko rogue CIA ideological zealot,who would ignore any sound clandestine protocols and inject herself into ongoing JFKA controversy again and again. Does it really  make sense?

 

 Ok that's my judgment, but it seems, for the reasons I stated that when you're down to making that one of your major arguments, you're really grasping at straws.

*****

[Ron Bulman]

On 10/12/2022 at 2:21 PM, Matt Allison said:

I'm a little in the dark about what exactly people seem to suspect Ruth Paine of; she wasn't a planner of the assassination, so I certainly hope that's not somehow being implied.

That's a deep subject Matt.  A brief synopsis is pretty much impossible.  This Spartacus bio touches on some aspects.  In the extensive end notes pay particular attention to numbers 10, 16 and 17.

Ruth Paine (spartacus-educational.com)

Here's the link to a thread I started a few years back on Their files if you want to read a little more.

This tread piqued suspicions I already had.

 

Edited October 15, 2022 by Ron Bulman

[Matt Allison]

Thanks, Ron.

The following is JMO:

Ruth Paine's extreme openness down through the years always suggested to me that she had no fear or anything to hide wrt the JFKA; to think otherwise would mean to imply she was one of the greatest actors to ever live. Her politics seemed genuinely empathetic, and she would have had to live her entire life as a lie if that was not the case.

My operating assumption has always been that her and Michael were incompatible romantically, which led to their early estrangement, but perfectly compatible mentally, which led to them never straying to far from one another, with the obvious bond of children factoring in as well.

If Ruth Paine was used as a "baby sitter" I believe it was as one for Marina, not Lee, and likely done without her even knowing it.

I'll have to read Cariol Hewett's writings on the subject.

[Matt Allison]

I'd also add that if Ruth Paine was as nefarious as some suspect, then that would have eliminated the need for Priscilla McMillan, who almost certainly was inserted into the situation for less than noble purposes...

[Matthew Koch]

I was surprised the movie didn't explore the theory that Ruth and Marina were lovers.

I first heard that allegation in 'Mrs Paine's Garage' then when I read the letters she wrote Marina it seemed like more than a friendship.. 

[Greg Doudna]

(error)

Edited October 13, 2022 by Greg Doudna

[Greg Doudna]

7 hours ago, Kirk Gallaway said:

Max: Ruth mentioned that her son had power of attorney for Michael 

 

Just as I surmised. That's why they're "under the same roof". These last 2 pages have been another wild goose chase. Just like assuming an employment counselor is going to reveal details , such as the wage at the  airport job to a stranger over the phone? Probably not likely.

 

People are entitled to have their own charges  about Ruth Paine, whether they could hold up in a court of law or not, which they clearly can't. But that doesn't matter. I believe there are people who are guilty, though my case might never hold up in court.

 

Half of this I already posted, with no real response to any of the questions I asked. I don't need a regurgitation of every suspicious thing the Ruth Paine has done for the umpteenth time. Please answer the questions that are designated with a question mark.?

 

I only use Jim Di because most of the details from Carol Hewitt  I learned from him. But what Di Eugenio has at least alleged, is that  Ruth Paine found herself in an unwitting plot to assassinate the President and then chose to plant evidence for the plotters. If a person when confronted with that dilemma, was given the choice, then chose to go and aid the conspirators, they would then become an accessory after the fact to the killing of a U.S President. That's not an unwitting accomplice. That's a very conscious choice, and a very serious allegation. These elements of the research community seem to have settled in a safe perch where they can take pot shots without  substantiating their theories and it's implications at all, and that allows it to be  greatly ambiguous. There's a lot of ground between someone under some pressure and maybe not telling everything they know and consciously aiding the plotters. You better be sure you know what you're talking about.

Here I'll just take this "unwitting accomplice" narrative and merge it with the story RP's alleged spy work in Nicaragua which is a story that has been recycled for the maybe hundreds of times here in the past. 

 

To believe this story, you're supposing that Ruth retains her position as a CIA asset, even after you allege her being   an unwitting asset in what many believe here is the greatest coup ever engineered in the history of the U.S. If you really think RP was a spy. Do you have any idea what being that entails? It's actually a clandestine life style. Are you familiar with the term, "spycraft"?" Is the CIA wise to use such an asset with such a blown cover in their escapades to forward the Contra War in Nicaragua? If RP was somehow exposed in that role, as an asset of U.S. Intelligence, wouldn't it just a beeline to her involvement in the JFKA case, and open up that whole mess?

 

A mess that people, including Di Eugenio here are claiming the CIA brought down a U.S. President  over? Causing the first President in the history to resign because of his alleged knowledge of the JFKA? Why in the world would they take  a chance of letting Ruth Paine run amuck in Nicaragua? Would such an agent really be out in the open writing copious notes, particularly with her previous exposure? Or would she probably do so in her own private moments before she went to bed for example. What kind of spy does that? Doesn't that strike you as a little phony? So you think they were smart enough to a engineer coup to kill the POTUS? and stupid enough to let this accessory to the fact do this?

 

Jean Paul:I don’t even think I understand why she did it this time ?  

Are we supposed to see this as a challenge, from a 90 y.o. person ?  Really ?

Is this like "Oops, she did it again" .... ?   What's happening ?

 

Let's look at her profile over the last 50+ years. She's 90 and she's actually going to go to Dallas for the 60th anniversary!  What intelligence asset would do that?  How foolish would she even be to go participate in the televised mock trial only to have people here chime in and castigate RP for "not liking LHO" (as if that means anything!. Is this a professional relationship, or a personal vendetta?) No matter what you think of RP, whether it''s a traitor, a spy, an asset, or a woman taking on a room mate. Who in the CIA or "Deep state" would advise her to do that?

 

But in order to make this story plausible, they have to portray RP as some wacko rogue CIA ideological zealot,who would ignore any sound clandestine protocols and inject herself into ongoing JFKA controversy again and again. Does it really  make sense?

 

 Ok that's my judgment, but it seems, for the reasons I stated that when you're down to making that one of your major arguments, you're really grasping at straws.

*****

Excellent comment Kirk G. 

[Matt Allison]

Well hell, I'm going to go watch this movie right now, as I can rent it on Amazon.

[Matt Allison]

Wow, that was absolutely fantastic; super well made. I will likely watch it again in a few weeks.

There's a ton that should be discussed about this movie. Tons. Because it really does address so much more than just the Paines.

A few comments real quick:

I don't see how people can try to nail Ruth for LHO getting the TSBD job and then just let LInnie Mae Randle slide by untouched. 

Since I believe there was nothing nefarious done there by either one, I have never given Ms. Randle a second thought.

As I said before, if you're gonna roll with the idea that Ruth was a witting CIA asset, you have got to also agree with the idea that she has done one of the world's best acting jobs; like ever. In the history of acting.

Posner needs to lay off the plastic surgery. 

There is a shot of evidence taken from the Paine home on 11/22/63 that says it was taken with the permission of Ruth and Marina. I've never seen that photo before; is there an evidence list to go with it and if so do the two match?

Again, I believe Ruth was Marina's unwitting baby sitter. But I fail to see how either her or Michael could have been tasked with such a job for LHO; simply because he was in Dallas and the Paines were in Irving. How the hell could true surveillance have been accurately done with that arrangement?

[Guest]

On 10/12/2022 at 10:34 PM, Kirk Gallaway said:

 

Jean Paul:I don’t even think I understand why she did it this time ?  

Are we supposed to see this as a challenge, from a 90 y.o. person ?  Really ?

Is this like "Oops, she did it again" .... ?   What's happening ?

 

 

Let's look at her profile over the last 50+ years. She's 90 and she's actually going to go to Dallas for the 60th anniversary!  What intelligence asset would do that?  How foolish would she even be to go participate in the televised mock trial only to have people here chime in and castigate RP for "not liking LHO" (as if that means anything!. Is this a professional relationship, or a personal vendetta?) No matter what you think of RP, whether it''s a traitor, a spy, an asset, or a woman taking on a room mate. Who in the CIA or "Deep state" would advise her to do that?

 

But in order to make this story plausible, they have to portray RP as some wacko rogue CIA ideological zealot,who would ignore any sound clandestine protocols and inject herself into ongoing JFKA controversy again and again. Does it really  make sense?

 

 Ok that's my judgment, but it seems, for the reasons I stated that when you're down to making that one of your major arguments, you're really grasping at straws.

*****

Indeed, that doesn't make sense, and I can tell you I'm taking a lot of writings on Ruth with bucket of salt.    

I wrote it in plural, joking a little with the research community (both sides are desperate in trying to fit this it in their narrative....   kinda panicking a little   ) 😄

I'll add the cartoon I had in mind, I did not use it, perhaps I should have

One of the first things I have ever read concerning Ruth was a letter by C.H.  to  J.A. (it's in the Baylor- John Armstrong Collection, I do not recommend looking for it)

I can tell you it made me sick... if that's the way people do "research".... they can have it...    

That day I decided : I am not going to choose sides in this stuff for a very long time to come...  and apply a little humor every now and then, that helps

 

 

Edited October 20, 2022 by Jean Paul Ceulemans

[Max Good]

For those who want to learn more about the suspicions surrounding the Paines, I recommend Bill Simpich's work:

The Twelve Who Built the Oswald Legend

https://www.maryferrell.org/pages/Essay_-_Oswald_Legend_12.html

Quote

Michael's Mother was a Forbes with ties to Allen Dulles - Michael's father was a socialist on the FBI Security Index

Last time, we looked at the backgrounds of Michael and Ruth Paine. Who were the guiding forces in their lives?

Ruth Forbes Young

Michael's mother Ruth Forbes was part of the prominent Forbes family. Ruth Forbes was active with the Universal World Federalists during the period right after World War II that Legend Maker #2 Cord Meyer was the group's leader.

Although he remained an avowed liberal, Meyer hewed towards a hardcore anti-Communist approach after surviving a bruising security investigation conducted by the FBI in the mid-fifties. During the late fifties and the sixties, Meyer served in the CIA as its covert action chief. In 1963, Meyer and Des FitzGerald were Richard Helms' two right-hand men in planning covert actions in Cuba.

Michael's birth father George Lyman Paine had belonged for many years to a Trotskyist socialist splinter group known as the Johnson-Forest Faction. Although Lyman was on the FBI's Security Index, it didn't prevent Michael from getting a security clearance at Bell Helicopter.

Ruth Forbes and Lyman Paine were good friends and drinking buddies with the aforementioned Mary Bancroft discussed in Part 7, a well-connected spy and the paramour of CIA chief Allen Dulles. If Cord Meyer had not known about Ruth and Michael Paine, it wouldn't have taken Dulles thirty seconds to fill him in.

After the assassination, Fred and Nancy Osborn went to the FBI to vouch for the Paines' good character. Fred's father, Fred Osborn, Sr., had helped create Radio Free Europe, and later worked with Allen Dulles and Time/Life/Fortune officer C. D. Jackson to form the Crusade for Freedom (CFF), an early CIA project that was modeled after Radio Free Europe. CFF merged with Radio Free Europe in 1962.

Ruth's father Bill Hyde, her sister Sylvia Hoke, and Sylvia's husband John Hoke - all had Intelligence ties & a history of hunting Communists

FBI report of informant regarding
Sylvia Hoke and Naval Intelligence

In a heavily redacted document, the FBI was informed that Ruth's sister Sylvia Hyde Hoke was Naval Intelligence and was trying to obtain a top secret clearance. As we will see, her family's relationship with an attorney allegedly involved with Soviet espionage killed that opportunity in 1958.

Hoke had clearances from AID for many years, and a CIA memorandum indicated that she was a CIA employee in 1961. Hoke had also worked with the Air Force as a personnel research technician in 1956-57 and had a final secret clearance.

Sylvia's husband John Hoke also worked with AID as a "communications resources specialist". His obituary states that he was fired in 1962 for building a solar-powered boat and attacked by a congressman not yet ready for the notion. Besides working with AID, Hoke provided services to the CIA on a yearly basis with a top secret clearance until at least mid-1963.

Ruth's father William Avery Hyde was AID's Regional Insurance Adviser for all of South America. His job was to provide technical assistance to insurance cooperatives being set up by the State Department. For many years, Bill Hyde was employed by the Nationwide Insurance Company, which was part of the Farm Bureau co-operative in Columbus, Ohio.

 

[Matt Allison]

C'mon guys. Let's be real here- the TSBD job was as a result of Linnie Mae Randle.

Trying to pin that exclusively on Ruth Paine is intellectually dishonest.

Which does no favors for anybody.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=38#relPageId=255