David Atlee Phillips: Oswald never went to Mexico!

[Ron Bulman]

29 minutes ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

Based on my research, the totality of the evidence shows that Nagell is not credible.

Your research supersedes Jim Garrison's statement Nagell is The most important witness?  Please provide us with details.

[Ron Bulman]

16 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

Thanks in large part to DJ's work, available on K&K, I don't think Oswald ever went to Mexico, in addition to others work.  I do wonder if he ever went to Spain, or Oklahoma.

 

Personally, I've never been to Spain.  But I've been to Oklahoma, a couple of weeks ago, one of many trips to/through.

[Benjamin Cole]

6 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

Your research supersedes Jim Garrison's statement Nagell is The most important witness?  Please provide us with details.

Garrison, who I admire, could have been more careful about witnesses. Garrison operated with a shoestring budget, and was booby-trapped and undercut by plants on his staff. Extradition requests were denied. Witnesses were murdered (Del Valle and likely Ferrie).

But Garrison put Charles Spiesel on the stand for the prosecution, and on on cross Spiesel said he fingerprinted his own daughter occasionally to find out if she was not an imposter. Garrison himself said, "And my case then flew out the window like a tom turkey." 

Garrison may have believed Nagell at first blush, under hurried circumstances. So might have I or you, under the same conditions. 

There is even the possibility that Nagell was "sent" to Garrison, as it was known Nagell was essentially a fraud. Depending on the direction the trial took, Nagell could then be exposed as a fraud, undermining Garrison's case. 

I suspect that is what happened with Speisel. 

Just IMHO.....

 

 

[Jonathan Cohen]

39 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

Your research supersedes Jim Garrison's statement Nagell is The most important witness?  Please provide us with details.

It sure does supersede it, considering Garrison made hundreds of wildly false and absurd statements along these lines. I commend the work of Dave Reitzes and Fred Litwin in taking apart the entire Nagell story. They have reached the same conclusions about it that I have.

https://www.jfk-assassination.net/nagell1.htm

https://www.onthetrailofdelusion.com/post/a-wrap-up-of-the-richard-case-nagell-story

[Benjamin Cole]

1 hour ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

Based on my research, the totality of the evidence shows that Nagell is not credible.

On this particular issue, we probably agree. 

In the JFKA, whether LN'er or CT'er, someone's word only is not enough.

It would have been nice if Nagell had sent copies of his purported warning letter Hoover also to his lawyer, friends, Congressperson, local FBI office, etc. On the letter to the lawyer or accountant etc., phone ahead with instructions to not open. The postmark is considered proof of time. 

Verily, that would cost a buck to do. 

So now, we have Nagell's word only he sent the letter. There is no other evidence. There is an undate-able letter in Nagell's paper belongings. Uncertain provenance. 

IMHO, there is enough hard and solid evidence in the JFKA to warrant serious reservations about the WC report and even the subsequent HSCA report (which found a likelihood of a conspiracy).

I advise the JFKA community to stick to the hard stuff. 

 

 

[Matt Allison]

I don't mean to derail the thread further with Nagell stuff, but what would be tremendously helpful would be a transcript of Marina Oswald's questioning where she was asked about Nagell. That interview was ostensibly conducted shortly after the assassination; within days or a few weeks of 11/22/63.

Edit: The interview was conducted on 1/18/64. 

Edited January 11, 2023 by Matt Allison

[David Josephs]

9 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

You have provided extensive evidence that LHO's bus ride to MC is very dubious. You contend LHO was not in Mexico.

Can you rectify this conflict?

I'm fairly certain he is talking about 1962 in Mexico... not the Sept/Oct 1963 trip.

But you don't believe him anyway, so why should what he says matter?  Like the Russians saying he was there...

Does not override the evidence which shows he was not there.

[Benjamin Cole]

9 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

I'm fairly certain he is talking about 1962 in Mexico... not the Sept/Oct 1963 trip.

But you don't believe him anyway, so why should what he says matter?  Like the Russians saying he was there...

Does not override the evidence which shows he was not there.

DJ--

I don't know that I "don't believe" Nagell, but rather regard the bulk of what he has posited as unproven and evidently unverifiable. 

Did Nagell send a letter to Hoover forewarning of the JFKA?  Who knows. But we cannot responsibly state such as true.  Sure, the FBI could have torched the letter. Or maybe Nagell never sent the letter. 

You are extremely well-versed in document search.

Does LHO's passport circa 1962 indicate travel to Mexico? 

[David Josephs]

A Passport was not needed to go to Mexico, just the Tourist Visa... (the one GAUDET acquired for him as the accounts of Sept 17th at the Mexican embassy by those there also suggests that Oswald was not there that day... but an application was submitted.   The visa application is offered by the WCR on 2 pages... 1st page on the left does not include the signature block or the notice the visa application was for a 6 month visa, not 15 days. The 2nd page on the right does not include the "NO. 987" or "SERIE: 24085" or the "NAME" line. Nor does Oswald have a real birth certificate to show as proof of anything.

According to the woman (Miss Tajeda) dealing with the FBI when they came to ask about the application, she says they did not take it or photograph it and it was burned in 1965 during routine housekeeping.  If it was burned in 1965... what is that exhibit below?   I also had found this W. Harvey signed note about the return of "Authentication Materials" to the CIA.  Maybe that's how they acquired this document...

I also need to add this amazing document.. it describes in 1B: PLAN TO FABRICATE TAPE PHONEY CONVERSATION OF CUBAN AMBASSADOR FOR INSERTION LIENVOY MECHANISM"

Which is exactly what was done repeatedly related to Oswald in Mx in 1963..

 

The only other document you need to also avoid detection on the way back into the USA is that HIDEEL Vaccination card that was made - who knows when or if that stamp kit was even Oswald's.  But we do know that stamp kit made this document...  an image of the kit is below and you can see the practiced June 8...  you'll notice too that the spacing of the letters in LEE OSWALD is the same as on the FPCC flyers.  In lieu of the vaccination, the Int'l Cert card suffices and the person passes through without departing the bus for a shot.

Edited January 11, 2023 by David Josephs

[Benjamin Cole]

DJ--

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth338438/m1/13/

This appears to be LHO's passport. (For reasons I do not understand the pages are blurry but you can click on the images and they clear up.)

This was the passport he was issued in 1959. 

As an aside, I wonder why he needed a new passport---just four years later? Or three years? 

Do you see travel to Mexico indicated by this passport? I do not. 

 

[Denny Zartman]

@David Josephs Wow. You are knocking it out of the park with your research here. Thank you for putting in so much time and effort, and for sharing your knowledge of the case with us all.

[David Josephs]

3 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

DJ--

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth338438/m1/13/

This appears to be LHO's passport. (For reasons I do not understand the pages are blurry but you can click on the images and they clear up.)

This was the passport he was issued in 1959. 

As an aside, I wonder why he needed a new passport---just four years later? Or three years? 

Do you see travel to Mexico indicated by this passport? I do not. 

 

As I mention above, a passport was not needed to go to Mexico for American citizens.

I believe he needed the new passport because he no longer looked like the 1959 Oswald... the 5'11" 165 Lee Oswald and the much smaller Harvey really didn't look all that much alike when you compare them like we do, but in 1963 how much side by side comparisons were there?

Strangely enough, this CIA memo from 11/26 states our man Ozzie is carrying the 1959 cancelled passport and not the 1963 one?

 

Above we see Lee on the left in 1959 and Harvey on the right only 2 weeks later...  The above left image of Lee is the LAST IMAGE OF LEE that I am aware of... after that it is all Harvey...  plus the 1963 application shows the old passport was marked for 

 

Here are the photos offered, on the left is the image from the Cuban Consulate in MX supposedly Sept 27 1963, on the right is the photo from the June 1963 passport application...  the photo on the left was described by Marina as one she had never seen and that it was of Oswald from Russia.. below that are the 2 signatures on the original and copy of the Cuban application and copies of the photo found in Oswald's possessions...  I've seen very large, hi res images of the photo on the left so I don't know why the images with the black background are so poor.

 

[Benjamin Cole]

41 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

As I mention above, a passport was not needed to go to Mexico for American citizens.

I believe he needed the new passport because he no longer looked like the 1959 Oswald... the 5'11" 165 Lee Oswald and the much smaller Harvey really didn't look all that much alike when you compare them like we do, but in 1963 how much side by side comparisons were there?

Strangely enough, this CIA memo from 11/26 states our man Ozzie is carrying the 1959 cancelled passport and not the 1963 one?

 

Above we see Lee on the left in 1959 and Harvey on the right only 2 weeks later...  The above left image of Lee is the LAST IMAGE OF LEE that I am aware of... after that it is all Harvey...  plus the 1963 application shows the old passport was marked for 

 

Here are the photos offered, on the left is the image from the Cuban Consulate in MX supposedly Sept 27 1963, on the right is the photo from the June 1963 passport application...  the photo on the left was described by Marina as one she had never seen and that it was of Oswald from Russia.. below that are the 2 signatures on the original and copy of the Cuban application and copies of the photo found in Oswald's possessions...  I've seen very large, hi res images of the photo on the left so I don't know why the images with the black background are so poor.

 

My take is the Nov. 26 CIA memo wanted a trace on all LHO movements made using his 1959 passport. Going back years, not just pertaining to the Mexico visit. 

That is interesting that LHO had a new passport. 

"Initially, a U.S. passport was issued for two years, although by the 1950s on application by the holder a passport could be stamped so that this time was extended without reissue. Stamping for a further extension is not permitted at present. In the succeeding decades the periods of validity for adult applicants were gradually extended to three, five, and eventually ten years, the current standard."

Perhaps LHO was issued a three-year passport in 1959. 

[Tom Gram]

8 hours ago, Matt Allison said:

I don't mean to derail the thread further with Nagell stuff, but what would be tremendously helpful would be a transcript of Marina Oswald's questioning where she was asked about Nagell. That interview was ostensibly conducted shortly after the assassination; within days or a few weeks of 11/22/63.

Edit: The interview was conducted on 1/18/64. 

 

9 hours ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

It sure does supersede it, considering Garrison made hundreds of wildly false and absurd statements along these lines. I commend the work of Dave Reitzes and Fred Litwin in taking apart the entire Nagell story. They have reached the same conclusions about it that I have.

https://www.jfk-assassination.net/nagell1.htm

https://www.onthetrailofdelusion.com/post/a-wrap-up-of-the-richard-case-nagell-story

I recall seeing what I thought was a  credible source - like a CIA memo or something - stating that Nagell had a list of names of CIA personnel in his trunk when he was arrested. Is this true? I did a quick browse through those links and didn’t see anything about it. 

EDIT: Double quoted by accident. 

Edited January 11, 2023 by Tom Gram

[David Josephs]

8 hours ago, Matt Allison said:

I don't mean to derail the thread further with Nagell stuff, but what would be tremendously helpful would be a transcript of Marina Oswald's questioning where she was asked about Nagell. That interview was ostensibly conducted shortly after the assassination; within days or a few weeks of 11/22/63.

Edit: The interview was conducted on 1/18/64. 

This is a link to FBI reports talking about Marina being shown photos of Nagell by the Secret Service.. the page of her report is from WCD404... along with the other 4 pages as well as a 2 page report with Nagell's statement about meeting Oswald "socially"

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg Subject Index Files/N Disk/Nagel Richard Case/Item 08.pdf 

 

This is from the new release.. 221 page file on Nagell with cover letter from BRUCE SOLIE

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/104-10305-10005.pdf. I have not been thru it all yet, hopeing to find a list of trunk contents

 

https://whowhatwhy.org/politics/government-integrity/avoid-linked-jfk-assassination-get-locked/
Then, on January 2, 1964, Nagell advised agents of both the FBI and Secret Service “that he had been acquainted with MARINA, the wife of LEE HARVEY OSWALD. Subject further pointed out that OSWALD was having marital difficulties with Marina.” The Secret Service is on record as having interviewed Marina Oswald about Nagell, but no transcript or notes are known to exist — only the FBI’s assertion that a photo of Nagell was shown to her, and that she supposedly said she’d never seen him before. 

 

From Russell's GALLERY article:
It was several months before I paid much notice to a pile of Xeroxed material I had carted home from San Diego. Included was a photocopy of the pages of a small brown spiral notebook, which according to Popkin had belonged to Richard Nagell. I turned the pages and scanned the names. The pages were filled with locker numbers, lists of theaters and restaurants alongside specific dates and times in a variety of locations in the U.S. and Mexico. I had read that such notations are often used to indi- cate intelligence rendezvous points, either for the drop and pick-up of in- formation or for clandestine contacts.
The notebook contained names of congressmen, attorneys, American leftists, officials in Far East governments, a Soviet military attache, six names under the heading "C.I.A.," and two listings for the "Fair Play for Cuba Committee." I began becoming more interested in this aspect of Pop- kin's theories, as well as in the man who'd kept the notebook. As Professor Popkin had related the story, the notebook had been among the effects taken from Richard Nagell's trunk that September afternoon in El Paso,
1963, and held for 11 years by the FBI. One entry in particular rang a bell:

C.E. MEXICO D.F. PHONE:
11-28-47
I played with the initials "C.E."
Were they a person's name? Perhaps "Cuban Embassy." The entry went on:
MEET JUFER REST CALLE VERSALLE LAREDO, TEXAS
Two months and two days after this notebook was seized from Richard Nagell, remarkably similar listings had been found in the address book of Lee Oswald: names of American left- ists, a Soviet Embassy official, and Cubans. Even the number of the Cuban Embassy in Mexico City, which Oswald listed atop one page:
Mexico City • Consulada de Cuba Zamora Y F Marquez
11-28-47 Sylvia Duran