David Atlee Phillips: Oswald never went to Mexico!

[Pat Speer]

16 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

That is what I have always felt also Matt.  If I recall correctly Nechiporenko had an American agent.

I don't remember his name but a book was written by the American who went to Russia and signed Nechiporenko and Nosenko etc to book deals. I believe he spoke at the 2013 Wecht conference. As I recall I sat with John Judge during the presentation. 

So, yeah, they had a motive to gussy up their statements. I don't think this is true for the writer of ZR/Rifle however. That book was written with the participation and encouragement of Cuban intelligence, which has always held that Oswald was a patsy. And yet, even so, this book presented evidence for Oswald's traveling to Mexico City. 

[Keyvan Shahrdar]

I read this whole CIA / Oswald in Mexico episode different from everyone else.  The CIA lack of information on Oswald in Mexico leads me to conclude that CIA officers were reading and executing messages sent to them.  They really did not know why they were doing them, they just knew they had to do it.  This comes to mind the letter I read of a CIA officer looking for George de Mohrenschildt; they had no clue why they were looking for GM in April of 63.

To me, this CIA/Mexico episode cements my thoughts of Generals at the Pentagon dishing out instructions to their minions.

[Paul Brancato]

26 minutes ago, Keyvan Shahrdar said:

I read this whole CIA / Oswald in Mexico episode different from everyone else.  The CIA lack of information on Oswald in Mexico leads me to conclude that CIA officers were reading and executing messages sent to them.  They really did not know why they were doing them, they just knew they had to do it.  This comes to mind the letter I read of a CIA officer looking for George de Mohrenschildt; they had no clue why they were looking for GM in April of 63.

To me, this CIA/Mexico episode cements my thoughts of Generals at the Pentagon dishing out instructions to their minions.

While I’m quite in sympathy with your last sentence, it was Angleton that made sure no one saw the contents of Winston Scott’s safe. 

[James DiEugenio]

And is that not really interesting Paul?

[Paul Brancato]

57 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

I don't remember his name but a book was written by the American who went to Russia and signed Nechiporenko and Nosenko etc to book deals. I believe he spoke at the 2013 Wecht conference. As I recall I sat with John Judge during the presentation. 

So, yeah, they had a motive to gussy up their statements. I don't think this is true for the writer of ZR/Rifle however. That book was written with the participation and encouragement of Cuban intelligence, which has always held that Oswald was a patsy. And yet, even so, this book presented evidence for Oswald's traveling to Mexico City. 

Your theory is novel. Don’t you think David Josephs demolished the Oswald bus ride? Let’s assume Oswald did go to Mexico by some means to carry out still hidden operations, and that there were no photos of him entering or leaving either consulate or embassy, Cuba or Russia because he was never there. (Add to that the impersonation, at least in a phone call, of Oswald).
What would Oswald have been doing in MC? 

[Eddy Bainbridge]

The Oswald legend was certainly in MC, and that, I think everyone agrees on. A physical presence only really matters if the Warren report is to be believed.

I believe the legend could have led to world war III. I think this is the prime reason for the CIA's ongoing cover-up. At least part of the CIA(David Phillips) set up a pretext for world war. 

I further believe the post-assassination cover-up was largely a pre-existing plan to avoid overreactions to provocations. Robert Kennedy was well aware of this pre-planning and assisted in its implementation during the autopsy of his brother. I believe there is some evidence of the pre-existing plan discussed elsewhere on this site.(Discussed by Larry Hancock)

 

 

Edited December 26, 2022 by Eddy Bainbridge

[James DiEugenio]

Another good point by Paul, who is one of the best posters here.  If Oswald was not at the embassies then what was he doing there?

As I said, this is why the CIA never wanted the Lopez Report out there.

I asked Eddy why it was not part of the HSCA volumes.

He said something to the effect:  Jim, it took us about six hours to get through the first two pages.  The report is 350 pages, so Blakey threw in the towel.

And if I recall correctly, those early pages are about the cameras in front of the embassies.  They really did not want the stuff about the pulse camera out there.

Can you imagine if:

1. The Lopez Report

2. Betsy Wolf work product on the Oswald file

Had both been in the HSCA volumes, perhaps one volume devoted to both?

 

Edited December 26, 2022 by James DiEugenio

[Pat Speer]

1 hour ago, Paul Brancato said:

Your theory is novel. Don’t you think David Josephs demolished the Oswald bus ride? Let’s assume Oswald did go to Mexico by some means to carry out still hidden operations, and that there were no photos of him entering or leaving either consulate or embassy, Cuba or Russia because he was never there. (Add to that the impersonation, at least in a phone call, of Oswald).
What would Oswald have been doing in MC? 

There is almost no evidence for Oswald's getting on a bus in New Orleans. I don't think he was on that bus. When I was first researching this stuff, I read all I could about his late night phone call to Horace Twiford in Houston. He made out that he could visit Twiford at his home. As a consequence, I think Oswald was coming to Houston from somewhere else, and that someone was driving him to Houston. 

There is this "throw every thing at the wall and see if it sticks" attitude amongst too many researchers, IMO. Oswald was in Mexico? Oh not he wasn't! An M/C rifle was found in the school book depository? Oh, no, one wasn't! And on and on... In order to embrace this "everything is fake" thesis, one must throw out the statements of dozens of witnesses--many of which are largely supportive of Oswald's innocence.

It's throwing the baby out with the bathwater, IMO. 

And I'm not alone. I've discussed the case with a number of the top researchers re the JFKA "spook stuff". And they largely agree Oswald went to Mexico, but was impersonated while he was down there. I mean, think about it. It would be pretty stupid if they impersonated him in Mexico City while he was at home with Marina and Junie, or was at an ACLU meeting with Michael Paine, or was debating Bringuier on TV in New Orleans. They must have known where he was, and that no proof would emerge he was elsewhere. 

So why not just have him go down to Mexico City, expenses paid, in the name of testing security, etc? 

 

[Matt Allison]

I'd like to read David's thesis on MC; is there a link to it?

The whole Mexico City thing is so insane and convoluted that I don't theorize about it much, other than I've always operated from the assumption that LHO was driven from New Orleans to Dallas, then driven from there to the Mexican border, and from that point his bus travels commenced.

But who knows.

I rely on the writings of others for insight into the MC episode.

[Robin Finn]

The Latin American division of the Directorate of Operations had a task force which researched Cuban complicity in the assassination in 1976-77. The section of the report on Mexico City intelligence from telephone tap operations against the Cubans records a phone call between Silvia Duran and Guillermo Ruiz  in the Cuban Embassy on September 27,1963 and adds this comment: ”Above is the only call made by or to Silvia Duran on the 27th of September the day on which Lee Harvey Oswald reportedly came to the Cuban Embassy” The problem is that the official story of Oswald in Mexico City has been that on September 27,1963, according to the telephone taps, Duran called the Soviet Embassy about LHO’s attempt to get a visa and someone in the Soviet Embassy called back a few minutes later???

[Benjamin Cole]

6 hours ago, Matt Allison said:

A big part of the problem with regard to the KGB guys in Mexico City is that they did all their jabbering right after the fall of the Soviet Union, when Russia was like the Wild West and everything, including opinions, was for sale to the highest bidder.

That is my sentiment. If the KGB agents, all three, were lying it was to make a cool million each. 

My guess is LHO was both impersonated in, and actually went to Mexico City. 

How he got there and back is an interesting question.

It makes sense as part of an LHO biography build to send him to the Cuban and Soviet embassies. Why no photos? Some of the cameras were automatic 1960s level technology. Some of the photographers were Mexican nationals, entirely bored with their jobs. 

Or. in the initial rush to scrub any relations to LHO, the photos were destroyed. After all, the tapes of a bogus LHO talking on the phone have evidently been destroyed.

Apparently some people knew how to enter the embassies without showing their faces, such as looking away from known camera positions, or wearing hats, umbrellas etc. 

Maybe LHO, always a wise guy, gave an OK sign to the photographer, suggesting an agent in cahoots.

It sure looks like LHO was doing asset-work for the CIA. 

 

[Pat Speer]

12 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

That is my sentiment. If the KGB agents, all three, were lying it was to make a cool million each. 

My guess is LHO was both impersonated in, and actually went to Mexico City. 

How he got there and back is an interesting question.

It makes sense as part of an LHO biography build to send him to the Cuban and Soviet embassies. Why no photos? Some of the cameras were automatic 1960s level technology. Some of the photographers were Mexican nationals, entirely bored with their jobs. 

Or. in the initial rush to scrub any relations to LHO, the photos were destroyed. After all, the tapes of a bogus LHO talking on the phone have evidently been destroyed.

Apparently some people knew how to enter the embassies without showing their faces, such as looking away from known camera positions, or wearing hats, umbrellas etc. 

Maybe LHO, always a wise guy, gave an OK sign to the photographer, suggesting an agent in cahoots.

It sure looks like LHO was doing asset-work for the CIA. 

 

I don't remember who, but one of those who looked into this mused that Oswald had a companion alongside him in the available photos, and that the CIA decided to just pretend there were no photos, as opposed to revealing he'd had someone with him, whereby the KGB could cross-reference their own photos and figure out who it was. 

[Benjamin Cole]

Just now, Pat Speer said:

I don't remember who, but one of those who looked into this mused that Oswald had a companion alongside him in the available photos, and that the CIA decided to just pretend there were no photos, as opposed to revealing he'd had someone with him, whereby the KGB could cross-reference their own photos and figure out who it was. 

Yes, another reason for the photo to disappear (although they could have cropped the other guy out of the photo). Even for the non-LHO man the CIA presented as LHO, everything was cropped out except the mystery man. 

The CIA may have had its share of bungling too. Was "Lee Henry Oswald" a clever filing trick, or just a simple error?

Down in Mexico City, tequilas and pretty girls at night...getting paid for sleeping through the afternoon....maybe the CIA was not all men 10 feet tall...

[Michaleen Kilroy]

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

It makes sense as part of an LHO biography build to send him to the Cuban and Soviet embassies. Why no photos? Some of the cameras were automatic 1960s level technology. Some of the photographers were Mexican nationals, entirely bored with their jobs. 

I believe David Atlee Phillips told the HSCA the camera was broken the day LHO walked in the Russian embassy. However, another agency employee later rebutted that notion, saying, “We’re the CIA. We have other cameras.”

[Matt Allison]

35 minutes ago, Michaleen Kilroy said:

I believe David Atlee Phillips told the HSCA the camera was broken the day LHO walked in the Russian embassy.

Yes, and ostensibly we have a way of knowing if that is true or not, via this: